Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

hill16bhoy

hill16bhoy wrote: »

A lot of projection in that post, given that it was Trump who threatened to not accept the result last time had he lost, and threatens to do the same again this time should he lose - which is why I fully expect him to try andd utilise every nefarious means possible to prevent him losing.

There is a chance Trump could win legitimately, most likely by following the same route as last time by getting millions of votes less throughout the country but edging key swing states.

When I say "legitimately", that still includes all voter suppression efforts bar actual result falsification via hacking - so the word "legitimately" is very much a misnomer - illegitimacy and disenfranchisement has been built into the voting systems across the US by Republicans.

Democrats exercise it too as regards gerrymandering of congressional districts but in a much smaller number of states than Republicans do.

The point here is that US democracy really is a sham and barely worthy of the name.

The electoral college itself is a sham, electing a single national president of a nation state based on a ridiculous system set up to empower slave states, and in which votes of people in different states do not count equally.

The Republican attempts to disenfranchise people are an utter disgrace.

The attempts to suppress the vote by making people travel long distances and queue for many hours to vote are a disgrace, and aimed pretty much exclusively at people who are likely to vote for a Democrat.

And the election systems themselves are a disgrace. They are non-standardised, many of them use antiquated machines, the ballot is often laid out in a deliberately confusing manner, and they are very likely hackable.

Do you think all, or even any of these things are major issues?

Some of them, yeah. But I disagree with the electoral college stuff.

Anyways, it sounds like you've now said that you'll accept the result unless vote tampering happens. That's all I wanted.

peddlelies

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Trump just recently said they did get assistance. And that he’d do it again.

He posted this on twitter. Did you miss it?


There’s a massive problem with a US presidential candidate taking assistance from its number one foe.

You know this. Don’t even attempt to normalise it. It doesn’t ‘happen all the time’

You're shifting arguments. I don't agree with what he said about foreign help but that's another topic entirely.

Stop moaning ffs

peddlelies wrote: »

You're shifting arguments. I don't agree with what he said about foreign help but that's another topic entirely.

When the report didn’t nail him personally he came out and said we took assistance and I’d do it again.


that isn’t shifting arguments.

It’s directly related to this upcoming election.

Christy42

I am still amazed by all the dodging of the racism. Why are people defending a racist person (not necessarily defending his racist statements, more trying desperately to not talk about them).

If you like his economic policies then he should be primaried by a similar candidate who is not racist surely? Surely a non racist candidate (maybe not a dem) would be better than a racist one and people can vote for their favourite non racist candidate.

If you are just defending the man, well then it is defending racism.

Christy42

Christy42 wrote: »

I am still amazed by all the dodging of the racism. Why are people defending a racist person (not necessarily defending his racist statements, more trying desperately to not talk about them).

If you like his economic policies then he should be primaried by a similar candidate who is not racist surely? Surely a non racist candidate (maybe not a dem) would be better than a racist one and people can vote for their favourite non racist candidate.

If you are just defending the man, well then it is defending racism.

What?

We've been having an interesting back and forth here for a few pages that happened to be about other stuff, and you have issue with that? Go start a Trump Racism thread if you need your Trump is a racist fix.

peddlelies

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

When the report didn’t nail him personally he came out and said we took assistance and I’d do it again.


that isn’t shifting arguments.

It’s directly related to this upcoming election.

The original back and fourth was about election interference 2016, our difference of opinion is about the level in which the Trump campaign was involved. I agree with you in the sense that what he said about accepting foreign help was wrong and that it sets a bad precedent and acts as a dog whistle for 2020.

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What?

We've been having an interesting back and forth here for a few pages that happened to be about other stuff, and you have issue with that? Go start a Trump Racism thread if you need your Trump is a racist fix.

But this thread is about Trump, the racist.

Stop moaning ffs

Just heard on some show that since racism has come up his polling is up with republicans, but it’s down ten points with independents and if that remains he hasn’t a hope of re-election. And a USA today poll also burying him

EltonJohn69

Trumps strategy really seems to be uniting the democratics, especially the candidates. Also seems making republican politician look extraordinarily weak.
The 2020 election is going to be, for better or worse, a turning point for America. I expect there to be some form of domestic terrorism sparked from all this vitriol. Remember that nutbag in the trump van was sending out pipe bombs, it’s likely that something like that will happen again.

peddlelies

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Trumps strategy really seems to be uniting the democratics, especially the candidates. Also seems making republican politician look extraordinarily weak.
The 2020 election is going to be, for better or worse, a turning point for America. I expect there to be some form of domestic terrorism sparked from all this vitriol. Remember that nutbag in the trump van was sending out pipe bombs, it’s likely that something like that will happen again.

You do know a few days ago some armed antifa nutter was killed trying to firebomb an ice facility.

Danzy

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Trumps strategy really seems to be uniting the democratics, especially the candidates. Also seems making republican politician look extraordinarily weak.
The 2020 election is going to be, for better or worse, a turning point for America. I expect there to be some form of domestic terrorism sparked from all this vitriol. Remember that nutbag in the trump van was sending out pipe bombs, it’s likely that something like that will happen again.

A totalitarian whack job in Tacoma tried storming an Ice facility because he viewed it as a concentration camp, where people are desperate to get in to.What would he make of Portlaoise prison.

There are enough whack jobs in America on all sides.

Trump's goal is to make the 4 crazies in The Squad, the face of the Democrats.

It is working, if he succeeds he may relegate the Democrats for a decade.

nw5iytvs0lf1uz

its hard to tell who is serious on here and who is having a laugh.
so many posts that trump would be proud of. pure gold.
its like ye are trying to out do each other.
posters here are attacking trump with such savagery it is embarrassing.
trump will serve until 2024 and then leave office.
I hope people realise that since 2016 our economy has improved greatly for 1 reason, American corporations are investing billions of dollars.
The reason for this investment and the current boom being felt in many countries like ours is America has a pro business president.

Also, Trump is not a racist according to Ben Carson, a man who has saved many children's lives, and i will take his word for it.

Danzy

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

its hard to tell who is serious on here and who is having a laugh.
so many posts that trump would be proud of. pure gold.
its like ye are trying to out do each other.
posters here are attacking trump with such savagery it is embarrassing.
trump will serve until 2024 and then leave office.
I hope people realise that since 2016 our economy has improved greatly for 1 reason, American corporations are investing billions of dollars.
The reason for this investment and the current boom being felt in many countries like ours is America has a pro business president.

Also, Trump is not a racist according to Ben Carson, a man who has saved many children's lives, and i will take his word for it.

This thread is light hearted and should be treated in that matter

Larbre34

Danzy wrote: »

This thread is light hearted and should be treated in that matter

Is it? I certainly wouldn't have said so. Every day of this presidency gets less and less bloody lighthearted as we go.

Stop moaning ffs

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

its hard to tell who is serious on here and who is having a laugh.
so many posts that trump would be proud of. pure gold.
its like ye are trying to out do each other.
posters here are attacking trump with such savagery it is embarrassing.
trump will serve until 2024 and then leave office.
I hope people realise that since 2016 our economy has improved greatly for 1 reason, American corporations are investing billions of dollars.
The reason for this investment and the current boom being felt in many countries like ours is America has a pro business president.

Also, Trump is not a racist according to Ben Carson, a man who has saved many children's lives, and i will take his word for it.

You’re somehow crediting Trump with American investment into Ireland.

That’s just a little bit ridiculous.

Can he take credit for henry ford setting up a car factory in cork last century?

Think you’ll find America investment has always happened here and will continue regardless of trump

In fact he despises American corporations moving jobs overseas.

Except for his cheap MAGA tat made in China. Of course.

EltonJohn69

Domestic terrorism can come from either side.... but it is Trump who is intentionally creating all this animosity through his twitter and his rallies. All he cares about is winning and not the dangerous side effects his methods are causing. With all this division and tension the US is like a tinderbox.

Stacksofwacks

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Well, the thing is..... Who is going to run against him? I mean there is no real genuine Democrat alternative. Sure, the younger and more liberal voters who didn't turn up last time will vote Democrat but you can bet your bottom dollar every single one of his supporters WILL turn. 100% of them (at least )

Right now there shouldn't be a debate about which Democrat is going to run. Right now there should already be one single voice/face. We should know who this person is and what they stand for. Say what you like about Obama. You knew who the hell he was even before he got the nomination. The Democrats are just eating their young at this stage.

I hope I'm wrong but come on. They should have gotten behind one single person by the end of last year.

But who do you get behind? Joe Biden' s numbers are falling already so that dosent bode well for beating Trump. Bernie and Warren will never have unaminous support among the democratic base. Kamala Harris looks a strong fighting candidate but she is black and a woman so Trump and his people will have a field day with that. Other candidates like Buttigieg and Beto are weak soup and thats pretty much it. As it stands Trump will probably get re-elected 2020

hill16bhoy

Deleted User wrote: »

Some of them, yeah. But I disagree with the electoral college stuff.

Anyways, it sounds like you've now said that you'll accept the result unless vote tampering happens. That's all I wanted.

If vote tampering happens we're unlikely to know about it.

The electoral college is a deeply undemocratic system.

If you are a Democrat in Missouri or a Republican in Massachusetts, there's almost no point in you voting, because the result is not in doubt.

It would be the same as having our presidential election being a two candidate only election, decided by a points system in which votes in which some counties count more than others.

Votes do not count equally when 62 million beats 65 million. It's a ridiculous system.

And given that it's single vote first past the post, it leads to extremist right-wing politics ruling the roost based on winning a select few swing states.

You see somewhat of the same issues at play in Britain and the North as well, but the US is the worst for it.

Even the French presidential system, which is single vote first past the post, has a run off of the top two candidates, which while far from perfect, is still better than the US system.

In terms of election machines, in my view they carry too much of a risk. Standarised nationwide paper ballots, like we have in this country, are by far the safest and most foolproof way of getting an accurate vote.

It also beggars belief that there is not a standarised formula in terms of frequency of polling stations, ie. that people do not have to travel big distances to vote, and in terms of adequate polling booths themselves once inside the polling station.

This is all such very basic stuff in most countries, but the US cannot, or more to the point, refuses to manage it.

kilns

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

its hard to tell who is serious on here and who is having a laugh.
so many posts that trump would be proud of. pure gold.
its like ye are trying to out do each other.
posters here are attacking trump with such savagery it is embarrassing.
trump will serve until 2024 and then leave office.
I hope people realise that since 2016 our economy has improved greatly for 1 reason, American corporations are investing billions of dollars.
The reason for this investment and the current boom being felt in many countries like ours is America has a pro business president.

Also, Trump is not a racist according to Ben Carson, a man who has saved many children's lives, and i will take his word for it.

Yes the economy has improved since 2016 and is mainly reflected in the low job figures, but at what cost? the tax cuts to the companies - which is put the deficit at dangerous levels and which leaves it as a ticking time bomb. All economies are cyclical and a recession will happen at some stage and be the irresponsible short sighted actions American will not be equipped to deal with the next recession, it is not a huge surprise consider Trumps business track record.

So when the American economy implodes and the corporations head for the hills taking their money with them, I presume, Trump and his supporters will take full responsibility also and not lay the blame elsewhere?

hill16bhoy

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Well, the thing is..... Who is going to run against him? I mean there is no real genuine Democrat alternative.

Every single candidate in the 20 plus Democratic field is a far superior alternative to Trump.

Even Marianne Williamson, and that's saying something.

A traffic cone would be a far better alternative to Trump.

Danzy

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

But who do you get behind? Joe Biden' s numbers are falling already so that dosent bode well for beating Trump. Bernie and Warren will never have unaminous support among the democratic base. Kamala Harris looks a strong fighting candidate but she is black and a woman so Trump and his people will have a field day with that. Other candidates like Buttigieg and Beto are weak soup and thats pretty much it. As it stands Trump will probably get re-elected 2020

Harris is very unpopular with the activist base of the Democrats, especially among young blacks in it, over her time as a Prosecutor in California.

So her biggest problems remain internal.

Outside of set pieces, she isn't that strong a candidate.

Stacksofwacks

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Every single candidate in the 20 plus Democratic field is a far superior alternative to Trump.

Even Marianne Williamson, and that's saying something.

A traffic cone would be a far better alternative to Trump.

That might be true but 63 million Americans don't think so

Danzy

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Every single candidate in the 20 plus Democratic field is a far superior alternative to Trump.

Even Marianne Williamson, and that's saying something.

A traffic cone would be a far better alternative to Trump.

The Traffic cone would have a chance of getting the nomination.

It's a bland field.

Penn

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Every single candidate in the 20 plus Democratic field is a far superior alternative to Trump.

Even Marianne Williamson, and that's saying something.

A traffic cone would be a far better alternative to Trump.

To us, yes. To moderates/independents in swing states, not so much.

The Dems need someone who isn't just a superior alternative to Trump, but one who can convince those swing voters that they are in spite of the attacks/lies Trump/GOP/Fox will be spewing about them. That's not an easy thing.

Hell even if a traffic cone ran against him, Trump/Fox would post pics of a traffic cone with Christmas lights around it in a student's flat, claim it means they're disrespecting the baby Jesus and say it was made in China.

everlast75

Have to laugh at some on here still defending him, when even Ben Shapiro and Piers Morgan are calling Trump out on last night, the latter saying

"What happened in North Carolina last night was not just racist-fueled demagoguery, but bordered on facism"

Dytalus

hill16bhoy wrote: »

If vote tampering happens we're unlikely to know about it.

The electoral college is a deeply undemocratic system.

As discussed before, this depends massively on how one views the United States.

If it is a union of states (which, as I understand it, tends to be the view of Republicans), and that the President is to represent the states, then the Electoral College makes some kind of sense - the states decide the President. If most of the people in California want a Democrat, then California (the state) votes Democrat. There are a few million Republicans in Cali too. The EC ensure every state gets a voice, rather than a few large ones deciding everything.

If, however, you view the US a single nation with the State analogous to Irish counties (which most outside the US seem to) then yes, the EC is grossly undemocratic because not every vote is equal.

Which side of the fence you fall down on is largely personal opinion (I tend to side with the 'US is a single nation' - enough of the US's administration is dealt with at a federal level that it cannot reasonably be argued to be a union of separate states anymore). Although even if you view the US as a union of disparate states, the Electoral College doesn't actually solve the problem of smaller states becoming irrelevant - it merely softens it. There are greater, more systemic problems in the EC than the balance of Electors per state which is the usual stick to beat it with.

Stop moaning ffs

He said last night that the US is in carnage?

Ehhh it’s been three years. Where’s all the making it great again and all the winning?

Stacksofwacks

Danzy wrote: »

Harris is very unpopular with the activist base of the Democrats, especially among young blacks in it, over her time as a Prosecutor in California.

So her biggest problems remain internal.

Outside of set pieces, she isn't that strong a candidate.

Yeah I dont particularly like her but she's a sharp politician and I think would think she would stand up to Trump's bullying tactics. Whether that would be good enough I dont know. The reason its so hard for an Incumbent president to lose a re-election is that they dont have to go through a primary whereas the democratic nominee will be coming into the election battered and bruised from the primary

Dytalus

everlast75 wrote: »

Have to laugh at some on here still defending him, when even Ben Shapiro and Piers Morgan are calling Trump out on last night, the latter saying

"What happened in North Carolina last night was not just racist-fueled demagoguery, but bordered on facism"

I didn't think it could happen but yup:

https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/1151658560494850048

He's actually done it. I'm actually kind of impressed, I would have thought Shapiro was the type to play politics like football and stick with his side no matter what. But apparently not, he does have a line. I'm a teeny bit happy to be proven wrong.

He's still someone I find utterly hateful, though.

Christy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What?

We've been having an interesting back and forth here for a few pages that happened to be about other stuff, and you have issue with that? Go start a Trump Racism thread if you need your Trump is a racist fix.

Are you really trying to claim my post about Trump being a racist is off topic to require a new thread???

Other stuff is being talked about because some are trying to ignore the very large elephant in the room and talk about anything else. We have more posts discussing the squads individual flaws??? They are not even up for nomination. They were targeted by Trump because of the colour of their skin. That was their intro into the thread so yeah Trump being a racist is definitely on the same topic and actually related to Trump.