Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

ECO_Mental

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

The following is fact
Trump since elected has grown the Dow by 10000 in 2.5 years
Obama grew it in fairness to him by 11000 in 8 years
The reason trump has the economy humming which is something Obama failed to do is trump has cut regulations especially regards the environment and the mining for resources and trump has gone after nafta and China which he was right to do For an American perspective.
NAFTA is a bad deal and the trade situation with China is ultimately unless re balanced as trump is trying to do with a trade war going to lead to a real war

Sorry I cant help but call out this BS



the Dow Jones in on the 30th Jan 2009 was 8000
The Dow Jone on 20 Jan 2017 was 19,800 (+11800) Obama

The Dow Jones closed yesterday at 27,300 (+8000) Trump

"The reason trump has the economy humming which is something Obama failed to do is trump has cut regulations especially regards the environment and the mining for resources"

Do you really thinkf**king up the environment is sound economic policy?? The world is looking at trillions in climate change adaptation measures over the next 10 20 years (if not sooner)


The smart (and even not so smart people) see this and are moving into renewable tech because they can see this trillion dollar market coming down the line. VW Volvo etc are shifting away from combustion engines the US will be left behind, no one will buy ****ty 8 litre Chevy trucks. The Chinese and mass producing solar PV panels ect and will become world leaders again US left behind. Trump is running the US into the ground BIG TIME...

Professor Moriarty

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

The following is fact
Trump since elected has grown the Dow by 10000 in 2.5 years
Obama grew it in fairness to him by 11000 in 8 years
The reason trump has the economy humming which is something Obama failed to do is trump has cut regulations especially regards the environment and the mining for resources and trump has gone after nafta and China which he was right to do For an American perspective.
NAFTA is a bad deal and the trade situation with China is ultimately unless re balanced as trump is trying to do with a trade war going to lead to a real war

Obama increased environmental protection regulations and acted on the climate change while Trump has dismantled environmental regulations and ignored climate change. That fact alone makes Obama infinitely superior.

pixelburp

I didn't think it needed to be said, but the DOW does NOT equal the economy, they're just numbers and arguing over them as some proof of Trumps success is asinine. They have absolutely not reflection on the real world, bar in the most abstract, glib terms.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/28/1point5-trillion-us-tax-cut-has-no-major-impact-on-business-spending-plans-survey.html

"The National Association of Business Economics’ (NABE) quarterly business conditions poll published on Monday found that while some companies reported accelerating investments because of lower corporate taxes, 84 percent of respondents said they had not changed plans. That compares to 81 percent in the previous survey published in October."


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/business/economy/trumps-tax-cut-was-supposed-to-change-corporate-behavior-heres-what-happened.html

This is a fairly decent deep-dive into the numbers since the Tax Bill. The conveniently maligned big tech companies account for a large amount of the growth (Google, Facebook, Amazon etc) though this part stands out to me:

"Nearly a year after the cuts were signed into law, wage growth has yet to pick up when accounting for inflation. In September, the Labor Department reported that inflation-adjusted wages had risen 0.5 percent from the year before. That’s a slower rate of growth than the economy itself experienced in September 2017, when it was 0.6 percent."

Which reads to me like more people are sinking closer to the poverty line. Some boom. How's the Rust Belt doing I wonder, those poor folk suffering in ex-coal towns that Trump promised to save. Maybe that's Amazon's ultimately plan, move into their legal-slavery warehouses into these desperate states and clean up.

Trump's Tax Cut was aimed at corporations, and as is usual with the "Trickle Down" theory, those breaks did not get passed to the consumer, or to the workers; in 2019, does it still come as a surprise to people that if you give corporations lots more money, their first instinct is NOT to give that windfall to the workers?

Wanderer78

pixelburp wrote:

Trump's Tax Cut was aimed at corporations, and as is usual with the "Trickle Down" theory, those breaks did not get passed to the consumer, or to the workers; in 2019, does it still come as a surprise to people that if you give corporations lots more money, their first instinct is NOT to give that windfall to the workers?

It's also interesting to know that the majority of shares are owned by the minority of people, and it most certainly isn't the general public

kilns

Wanderer78 wrote: »

It's also interesting to know that the majority of shares are owned by the minority of people, and it most certainly isn't the general public

But to be fair the majority of shares are owned by funds which ordinary people would be invested in for pension purposes mostly

duploelabs

Took a break for a day there. I see Trump's tactic of saying something inflammatory was successful in burying the Epstein/Cohen documents story

BonnieSituation

Reading through these posts, it's become clear that our friends don't actually know what the DJIA "number" actually means.

They think it's some sort of tangible value on which to hang an economy and if it gets to a certain value then the President wins.

Indexation, averages, weighting, factors... All gibberish for them.

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

Wanderer78

kilns wrote:

But to be fair the majority of shares are owned by funds which ordinary people would be invested in for pension purposes mostly

True, but its well know, that share ownership is well skewed, stock market value is yet another very poor economic indicator, for the average person, its to be taken with a pinch of salt

Brian?

Dytalus wrote: »

I didn't think it could happen but yup:

https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/1151658560494850048

He's actually done it. I'm actually kind of impressed, I would have thought Shapiro was the type to play politics like football and stick with his side no matter what. But apparently not, he does have a line. I'm a teeny bit happy to be proven wrong.

He's still someone I find utterly hateful, though.

I’m surprised as well. He actually has some decency.

But he does manage to call her a “radical anti Semite” while he’s at it. That’s not true.

kilns

Wanderer78 wrote: »

True, but its well know, that share ownership is well skewed, stock market value is yet another very poor economic indicator, for the average person, its to be taken with a pinch of salt

I agree, the Dow should never be taken as an indicator of the strength of the eocnomy, there have been huge buy back programmes from most corporates after the tax breaks

Penn

Brian? wrote: »

I’m surprised as well. He actually has some decency.

But he does manage to call her a “radical anti Semite” while he’s at it. That’s not true.

Meghan McCain was giving out about Trump's comments and the "Send her back" chants too.

Though her main issue with them was that it now makes it more difficult to call Omar an anti-semite (@2.50)

duploelabs

kilns wrote: »

I agree, the Dow should never be taken as an indicator of the strength of the eocnomy, there have been huge buy back programmes from most corporates after the tax breaks

Yeah unfortunately the less knowledgeable (although more adroit at ctrl+C ctrl+v) can't see past the headlines and just see the Dow rise as good for the economy

everlast75

So when you call Trump a liar - the Trump response is "the economy"

So when you call Trump a racist - "the economy"

So when you call Trump ignorant - "THE economy"

So when you call Trump misogynistic and an adulterer - "ECONOMY"

So when you call Trump is amoral, incites hatred, is corrupt, a tax cheat - the Trump response is "ECONOMY!!!"

When you point out that the economy isn't in the condition they say it is, and point out the costs of his policies to the environment and the harm with the rising deficit... *crickets*

Stop moaning ffs

The fed looking to delay the downturn until the day after Election Day 2020

https://twitter.com/jeannasmialek/status/1151918437142335490

kilns

everlast75 wrote: »

So when you call Trump a liar - the Trump response is "the economy"

So when you call Trump a racist - "the economy"

So when you call Trump ignorant - "THE economy"

So when you call Trump misogynistic and an adulterer - "ECONOMY"

So when you call Trump is amoral, incites hatred, is corrupt, a tax cheat - the Trump response is "ECONOMY!!!"

When you point out that the economy isn't in the condition they say it is, and point out the costs of his policies to the environment and the harm with the rising deficit... *crickets*

Again to be fair, it was Bill Clinton who said it "Its the economy stupid" As long as the economy is perceived to be doing well to the general public, Trump has a very strong chance of getting re-elected

everlast75

kilns wrote: »

Again to be fair, it was Bill Clinton who said it "Its the economy stupid" As long as the economy is perceived to be doing well to the general public, Trump has a very strong chance of getting re-elected

Was he ballooning the deficit or destroying the environment while the economy was being promoted? Genuine question btw.

If the right thinking public are made aware of trump's behaviour you would hope that principles stand for something.

I believe once the public are educated on the facts, not soundbites or headlines and not the "alternative facts", the majority of the american people will do the decent and correct thing.

Quin_Dub

kilns wrote: »

Again to be fair, it was Bill Clinton who said it "Its the economy stupid" As long as the economy is perceived to be doing well to the general public, Trump has a very strong chance of getting re-elected

However, when Clinton said "It's the Economy Stupid" , the other things people were talking about were Foreign policy , Healthcare , the Military etc.

Now, the "other" things are corruption , tax fraud , election fraud, nepotism , racism, misogyny and more.

Shouldn't really be a fair comparison.

And as many others have said , when you really dig in to it , is the economy really doing that great for the voters that will actually matter on election day?

Stop moaning ffs

everlast75 wrote: »

Was he ballooning the deficit or destroying the environment while the economy was being promoted? Genuine question btw.

If the right thinking public are made aware of trump's behaviour you would hope that principles stand for something.

I believe once the public are educated on the facts, not soundbites or headlines and not the "alternative facts", the majority of the american people will do the decent and correct thing.

He’s done such a job on the media and destroying trust of them facts no longer matter. There is no objective truth in us media anymore anyways. Every outlet is agenda driven.
There is no one to tell the truth or present the actual facts in such a way that all would believe.

Gbear

duploelabs wrote: »

Took a break for a day there. I see Trump's tactic of saying something inflammatory was successful in burying the Epstein/Cohen documents story

There kinda isn't much to chew on there yet.

We'll have to wait and see who's actually criminally implicated in the Epstein case. I wouldn't be even remotely surprised if Trump is, and even less if many of his cronies are. We don't actually know yet though.

As for the Cohen thing, it's nothing we didn't already know. We know that Donald Trump has committed campaign finance violations and would be in prison if he had lost the election.

everlast75 wrote: »

When you point out that the economy isn't in the condition they say it is, and point out the costs of his policies to the environment and the harm with the rising deficit... *crickets*

Ah! But think of the strides he's made towards normalising overt racism and misogyny! Truly a wonderful achievement.

MadYaker

everlast75 wrote: »

Was he ballooning the deficit or destroying the environment while the economy was being promoted? Genuine question btw.

If the right thinking public are made aware of trump's behaviour you would hope that principles stand for something.

I believe once the public are educated on the facts, not soundbites or headlines and not the "alternative facts", the majority of the american people will do the decent and correct thing.

Are you sure about that? The guy is an open racist and enjoys the support of about 40% of the population. It’s clear watching the controversy around his go back home comments that a very large chunk of society agrees with this sentiment. They will try and call it something else because they lack the conviction to stand up and be counted as a racist but I’ve long since given up on the hope of Americans doing the right thing when it comes to trump. The country is rotten, Trump has just exposed the rot.

kilns

everlast75 wrote: »

Was he ballooning the deficit or destroying the environment while the economy was being promoted? Genuine question btw.

If the right thinking public are made aware of trump's behaviour you would hope that principles stand for something.

I believe once the public are educated on the facts, not soundbites or headlines and not the "alternative facts", the majority of the american people will do the decent and correct thing.

No but the public dont care, it may be hard to take but voters are easily swayed by headlines saying jobs at there lowest etc etc

ancapailldorcha

Quin_Dub wrote: »

However, when Clinton said "It's the Economy Stupid" , the other things people were talking about were Foreign policy , Healthcare , the Military etc.

Now, the "other" things are corruption , tax fraud , election fraud, nepotism , racism, misogyny and more.

Shouldn't really be a fair comparison.

And as many others have said , when you really dig in to it , is the economy really doing that great for the voters that will actually matter on election day?

I think you could equate the vote for Trump with a vote for significant change. It's why the arguments about the economy as a whole, GDP, etc never resonated. The economy just doesn't work for many Americans. However, now that they have their man in, suddenly they are happy to tout the fact that America's economy is performing well regardless of any benefit they themselves are not seeing.

It shouldn't be a fair comparison but we're seeing a lot of countries now experiencing a shift in wealth, capital, investment and talent towards certain cities like San Francisco, London, New York, etc... The result is that most of the country will lose out as a result. So, I think Clinton's slogan about the economy still applies, just differently.

everlast75

MadYaker wrote: »

Are you sure about that? The guy is an open racist and enjoys the support of about 40% of the population. It’s clear watching the controversy around his go back home comments that a very large chunk of society agrees with this sentiment. They will try and call it something else because they lack the conviction to stand up and be counted as a racist but I’ve long since given up on the hope of Americans doing the right thing when it comes to trump. The country is rotten, Trump has just exposed the rot.

kilns wrote: »

No but the public dont care, it may be hard to take but voters are easily swayed by headlines saying jobs at there lowest etc etc

2 particular people give me hope.

Firstly, the MAGA cap wearing lady who sat on the jury for Paul Manafort. She was interviewed after he was sent down. She wanted to believe he was innocent, up to the trial she did believe he was innocent, yet when faced with the overwhelming evidence, she sent him down.

The second lady is the one at the Amash rally. He spoke about the Mueller report to the folks and afterwards, this lady said that she had no idea there was anything negative in the report, she thought it exonerated Trump (sound familiar?). She then said she only listened to conservative media, like Fox News.

Like I said - educate the people. Let Mueller speak, have hearings disclosing facts and evidence, fight gerrymandering and voter suppression, encourage voter turnout. That's the way to beat Trump.

Leroy42

It was never about the economy, it was about change. Many voters stated that HC was more of the same and that Trump wold change things up.

But that in itself is now a major problem for Trump and why he is constantly talking about the economy and the stock market. Because he hasn't changed much at all, certainly not in any fundamental way. He has made things easier and cheaper for corporations, reduced regulations etc. So he can no longer run with the 'Man to change things' mantra so he needs people to start looking back to the previous ways.

It is also why he must demonise the left. Because they do offer real change. And he ran very much on the message that things weren't working so time to take a chance on something new, so surely even those voters must conclude that the likes of Harris etc as thus worth a shot.

So the new message is that change is actually terrible. Something to be inherently scared of. Don't touch anything of the whole thing would collapse. Which is of course diametrically the opposite of what he claimed 3 years ago.

aloyisious

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The fed looking to delay the downturn until the day after Election Day 2020

https://twitter.com/jeannasmialek/status/1151918437142335490

So is that an admission [by another way] that the Fed [NY branch] thinks the economy may be in need of a boost by a loosening the Fed restraints or that the Fed restraints are preventing a runaway economy leading to massive inflation and a bust in the near future?

Either way, Don seems to be bamboozling the public.

not_quite_last

Leroy42 wrote: »

It was never about the economy, it was about change. Many voters stated that HC was more of the same and that Trump wold change things up.

But that in itself is now a major problem for Trump and why he is constantly talking about the economy and the stock market. Because he hasn't changed much at all, certainly not in any fundamental way. He has made things easier and cheaper for corporations, reduced regulations etc. So he can no longer run with the 'Man to change things' mantra so he needs people to start looking back to the previous ways.

It is also why he must demonise the left. Because they do offer real change. And he ran very much on the message that things weren't working so time to take a chance on something new, so surely even those voters must conclude that the likes of Harris etc as thus worth a shot.

So the new message is that change is actually terrible. Something to be inherently scared of. Don't touch anything of the whole thing would collapse. Which is of course diametrically the opposite of what he claimed 3 years ago.

Isn't that why the MAGA slogan is getting replaced with the Keep America Great Again. So everything's perfect in America now and that why those who don't like need to get out!

Sunny Disposition

Hopefully Trump has pushed things a bit far now, should galvanise his opponents at the very least, surely going to concern at least a percentage of his base.

Walter Bishop

Why do certain people think the Dow = the Economy. It doesn't.

A bunch of hedge fund managers are getting rich by creating booms and busts in whatever market with no thought to the misery this causes for hundreds of thousands of families, and if you ask a Trump supporter why the Dow being up should make any difference whatsoever to the average working or middle class family, they won't be able to tell you.

The usual 'job creators' or 'trickle down economics' nonsense might get trotted out, I suppose.

BonnieSituation

Walter Bishop wrote: »

Why do certain people think the Dow = the Economy. It doesn't.

A bunch of hedge fund managers are getting rich by creating booms and busts in whatever market with no thought to the misery this causes for hundreds of thousands of families, and if you ask a Trump supporter why the Dow being up should make any difference whatsoever to the average working or middle class family, they won't be able to tell you.

The usual 'job creators' or 'trickle down economics' nonsense might get trotted out, I suppose.

This is precisely what I meant when I posted this last night:

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Reading through these posts, it's become clear that our friends don't actually know what the DJIA "number" actually means.

They think it's some sort of tangible value on which to hang an economy and if it gets to a certain value then the President wins.

Indexation, averages, weighting, factors... All gibberish for them.

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

Hiding behind numbers and not knowing what those numbers mean is beyond daft in my mind.

Stop moaning ffs

A US journalist has asked Trump would he be ok with someone telling the First Lady to go back to her country.
Trump didn’t answer.

We need more of this. Tackling him head on about his racism. Turn it back on him.