Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

Christy42

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

Bernie Sanders may promote the ideals of socialism but he and his wife are capitalists.
As he would say himself you too can become a millionaire by writing a book

Again. That is fine under socialism. You can also become rich in Denmark. All socialism says is to treat people like people with regards healthcare and food etc. This generally involves a bit more taxation especially on those who are well off.

It does not in any way prohibit being well off in spite of what you have heard or say.

aloyisious

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

Ireland is not a socialist country.

For example I believe in capitalism but I do NOT believe in The state and the people bailing out banks and large corporations when they fail
10 years ago the bond holders should have been burnt but the state decided to nationalize the debt.

Straying away from the main debate, the money used for the bailout here should have remained in the coffers for use on social structures here instead of the bankers who took a gamble on other peoples money. I also don't believe the taxpayer should have paid up for the gambling bondholders. They, without pressure, put their shirts and the shirts of others, on the line.

Ireland is a capitalist country with socialist leaning/tendencies. The US, under Trump's driving, is losing that from within the social make-up of its home-grown population.

nw5iytvs0lf1uz

Christy42 wrote: »

Again. That is fine under socialism. You can also become rich in Denmark. All socialism says is to treat people like people with regards healthcare and food etc. This generally involves a bit more taxation especially on those who are well off.

It does not in any way prohibit being well off in spite of what you have heard or say.

Capitalism generates wealth and uses this wealth To provide health, education and for those who cannot care for themselves shelter and food.

Socialism is the redistribution of wealth and power from the individual to the state.
No one can provide an example of a socialist country that did not fail
And please do not say Scandinavia is socialist they are not they just heavily regulate capitalism.
But that is fine for Norway with their resources the party is over for Sweden who are currently trying to dismantle their welfare state

batgoat

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

Capitalism generates wealth and uses this wealth To provide health, education and for those who cannot care for themselves shelter and food.

Socialism is the redistribution of wealth and power from the individual to the state.
No one can provide an example of a socialist country that did not fail
And please do not say Scandinavia is socialist they are not they just heavily regulate capitalism.
But that is fine for Norway with their resources the party is over for Sweden who are currently trying to dismantle their welfare state

By your own definition of capitalism, the US are failing to do all of the above. Healthcare and quality of it is based on personal wealth. Education is based on area's wealth so loads of people get terrible education and university is inaccessible to plenty because of cost. Homelessness and poverty is also a significant problem in plenty of states...


But you're apparently now pretending there are no socialist states in Europe. By your definition, most EU states are better at being capitalists because of socialist policies... Free education, healthcare etc depending on the country.

rossie1977

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

10 years ago the bond holders should have been burnt but the state decided to nationalize the debt.
Is this the socialist democracy you like?

It was more like the EU demanded that the Irish government not let the banks fail so Ireland borrowed money from the ECB.

The EU feared a domino effect which would have seen bigger banks collapse in countries like Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal which would have crashed the entire process.

Letting banks fail is what happened in the states in the 1920s and that resulted in a decade of deep depression so it's not as easy as just letting them fail. The Irish government at the time probably didn't know if AIB, BOI or Ulster were on the verge of collapse of not.

Question let's say you have your life savings in BOI or AIB or both and both collapse and allowed fail and you lose everything would you be ok with it?

Leroy42

The home of Capitalism, the US, was at the very core of the reason why 2008 was such a disaster. Capitalists having an amazing ability to forget everything that it does badly but have an absolute belief that nothing else can ever be better.

But again, not even the most rabid left leaner is looking to dismantle capitalism. They are looking to take more of the super profits and redistribute it more evenly and fairly. Trump found 50bn additional money for a poorly performing military yet it seems that there is no money for universal healthcare.

Christy42

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

Capitalism generates wealth and uses this wealth To provide health, education and for those who cannot care for themselves shelter and food.

Socialism is the redistribution of wealth and power from the individual to the state.
No one can provide an example of a socialist country that did not fail
And please do not say Scandinavia is socialist they are not they just heavily regulate capitalism.
But that is fine for Norway with their resources the party is over for Sweden who are currently trying to dismantle their welfare state

You don't get to redefine words. That first one is definitely not capitilism by any stretch. Capitilism does not naturally contain any social welfare that you seem to think it does.

Also by your own definition Trump is incredibly anti Capitalist. He does not use wealth to provide education etc. He uses his wealth to defraud those less well off (see Trump U).

But hey if you want to define capitilism as using the wealth created by wealthy to help those less well off then let's go with it. Warren and Sanders seem to be the closest to your definition of capitilism. I presume they have your support over noted anti capitalists such as Trump?

looksee

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

Ireland is not a socialist country.

Right, that's why in post 1740 I put socialist in inverted commas. We are what the US regards as socialist, but we are, as has been pointed out a capitalist country with significant socialist leanings.

We don't always get it right but even with its faults it is a hell of a lot better than the 'I take care of myself and what is mine is mine'. Whether this attitude holds when those same people fall on bad times is when this attitude is tested.

People who grow up with the advantages and back-stop of these socialist tendencies then, on achieving a successful career, consider themselves self made are self-deluding.

As to whether I can go back 15 years, I have been living as an adult, raising a family, in Ireland since 1973. The Celtic Tiger was just a blip, badly handled but just another bit of incompetence on the generally upward trend of the past 50 or so years.

nw5iytvs0lf1uz

Bernie sanders Proves that he is just like every other capitalist pig


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-campaign-announces-it-will-cut-hours-to-pay-staffers-15-minimum-wage-prompting-mockery

BonnieSituation

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

Bernie sanders Proves that he is just like every other capitalist pig


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-campaign-announces-it-will-cut-hours-to-pay-staffers-15-minimum-wage-prompting-mockery

Did you actually read the article?

---

Can you explain the Dow numbers please?

Moghead

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

Bernie sanders Proves that he is just like every other capitalist pig


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-campaign-announces-it-will-cut-hours-to-pay-staffers-15-minimum-wage-prompting-mockery

Are you going to respond to any of the posts above that quoted you?

ancapailldorcha

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

Bernie sanders Proves that he is just like every other capitalist pig


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-campaign-announces-it-will-cut-hours-to-pay-staffers-15-minimum-wage-prompting-mockery

Banned.

jochenstacker

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

Capitalism generates wealth and uses this wealth To provide health, education and for those who cannot care for themselves shelter and food.

There is a German saying that is relevant here, da lachen ja die Hühner. The chickens are laughing at this.
This is so absolutely not what capitalism is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Critics of capitalism argue that it establishes power in the hands of a minority capitalist class that exists through the exploitation of the majority working class and their labor; prioritizes profit over social good, natural resources and the environment; and is an engine of inequality, corruption and economic instabilities. Supporters argue that it provides better products and innovation through competition, disperses wealth to all productive people, promotes pluralism and decentralization of power, creates strong economic growth and yields productivity and prosperity that greatly benefit society.

It yields prosperity for almost everyone.
The attitude being "I'm alright, Fcuk everyone else". Less fortunate people who cannot afford healthcare for profit or didn't have the means to put a few ten thousand on the side for harder times, get ignored and in the US, get actively despised and ridiculed.
In the civilised world of Europe, we decided that this is not how we want to do things.
If anyone doesn't like this, they are welcome to try their luck elsewhere.

Water John

Nadler looks he'll step things up on Wed.
'On Sunday, the chairman of the judiciary committee indicated the stakes when he said the 448-page report contained “very substantial evidence that the president is guilty of high crimes and misdemeanours” – the benchmark for impeachment.

“It’s important that we not have a lawless administration and a lawless president,” the New York Democrat Jerrold Nadler told Fox News Sunday. “And it’s important that people see what we’re doing and what we’re dealing with.” Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/21/mueller-report-trump-nadler-impeachment

Stop moaning ffs

Grant Shaggy Self-confidence wrote: »

Bernie sanders Proves that he is just like every other capitalist pig


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-campaign-announces-it-will-cut-hours-to-pay-staffers-15-minimum-wage-prompting-mockery

Pastor,
Trump is breaking up families and kids are dying in the camps he’s set up.

‘Look over here at Bernie! And the economy!’

Just isn’t working as a defence. We’re all thankfully a lot smarter than our American trump loving counterparts. You can stop with the whataboutery. A mod just issued an order to stop it a few pages back.

everlast75

Fox are showing Mueller's testimony on Wednesday.

There's hope some of those will be educated....

StringerBell

everlast75 wrote: »

Fox are showing Mueller's testimony on Wednesday.

There's hope some of those will be educated....

I'd imagine it will be a heavily slanted version of the testimony. If it is simply a live feed then I'll be amazed and impressed somewhat, I'd imagine it will be a lot of commentary and shots of the barb's from Republicans attempting to portray Mueller as the opposite of what he has actually been his entire career. If anything he was actually a little too "fair" to the president in his report

everlast75

StringerBell wrote: »

I'd imagine it will be a heavily slanted version of the testimony. If it is simply a live feed then I'll be amazed and impressed somewhat, I'd imagine it will be a lot of commentary and shots of the barb's from Republicans attempting to portray Mueller as the opposite of what he has actually been his entire career. If anything he was actually a little too "fair" to the president in his report

Well Trump dug deep today. He retweeted Katie Hopkins and sent Miller on tv to defend his racism.

Meanwhile, Rudy is on twitter at the moment citing infowars.

JFC, how pathetic they have become to find support.

hotmail.com

everlast75 wrote:

There's hope some of those will be educated....

It's really this type of snobby rubbish that the Trump lovers feed off.

hotmail.com

everlast75 wrote:

Well Trump dug deep today. He retweeted Katie Hopkins and sent Miller on tv to defend his racism.

You're opposed to racism, but favour snide remarks about non college educated people?

StringerBell

hotmail.com wrote: »

everlast75 wrote:

There's hope some of those will be educated....

It's really this type of snobby rubbish that the Trump lovers feed off.

**** em at this point to be honest, the ones who are genuinely ignorant DO need to be educated. The ones who know and support him are not worth the time obviously.

Let them feed off it, right back into their caves where they feel more at home.

StringerBell

hotmail.com wrote: »

everlast75 wrote:

Well Trump dug deep today. He retweeted Katie Hopkins and sent Miller on tv to defend his racism.

You're opposed to racism, but favour snide remarks about non college educated people?

I'm sure the OP can speak for themself, but I don't think non college educated people got a mention did they?

everlast75

hotmail.com wrote: »

It's really this type of snobby rubbish that the Trump lovers feed off.

1) 4% of the public have read the report.
2) see the results of the Amash rally. Fox isn't telling people the truth
3) barr and trump lied about the content and findings of the mueller report
4) see also the general misinformation Trump, Fox and Friends and Barr have spread to their viewers.

They need to be educated with the facts.

everlast75

hotmail.com wrote: »

You're opposed to racism, but favour snide remarks about non college educated people?

Grasping at straws.

Inferring insult where there is none.

Where do you stand on trump's racist remarks, for that matter?

hotmail.com

everlast75 wrote:

1) 4% of the public have read the report. 2) see the results of the Amash rally. Fox isn't telling people the truth 3) barr and trump lied about the content and findings of the mueller report 4) see also the general misinformation Trump, Fox and Friends and Barr have spread to their viewers.

everlast75 wrote:

They need to be educated with the facts.

We know exactly what you meant. You were slagging off those that watch Fox News.

And then you come on pretending to be Mr nice guy who opposes racism.

everlast75

hotmail.com wrote: »

We know exactly what you meant. You were slagging off those that watch Fox News.

And then you come on pretending to be Mr nice guy who opposes racism.

"We" know? Lol

Who is "we" exactly?

And i don't profess to be anything. I'm against Trump. If that makes me nice then what does that say about him?

Now can you absence my question. Where do you stand on Trump's racist remarks?

hotmail.com

StringerBell wrote:

**** em at this point to be honest, the ones who are genuinely ignorant DO need to be educated. The ones who know and support him are not worth the time obviously.

StringerBell wrote:

Let them feed off it, right back into their caves where they feel more at home.

This makes you a total a**h*** just like any typical racist. No different in my eyes.

hotmail.com

everlast75 wrote:

And i don't profess to be anything. I'm against Trump. If that makes me nice then what does that say about him?

everlast75 wrote:

Now can you absence my question. Where do you stand on Trump's racist remarks?

It's not being anti Trump that's the problem (even though that's weird because you're not an American citizen presumably), it's that you dislike his voters using snobby and disparaging language about them.

I don't have to answer your questions. You have a severe issue that when challenged, you assume it's because the challenger is a supporter of Trump. You can't grasp the idea that you may be wrong.

StringerBell

hotmail.com wrote: »

This makes you a total a**h*** just like any typical racist. No different in my eyes.

I'm ok with you not liking me, (though obviously as nothing was mentioned about race at all your comment is a bit odd) and I am assuming you also view Donald John Trump through the same lens?

Fox news does not deal fairly to its massive audience, of all the main stream media it is surely the largest in terms of reach?

A chance for their audience to be educated on facts is always welcome, but sadly there is clearly a significant number who are not simply ignorant, who are supportive of this man because of his racism, rather than in spite of it. For the ignorant, there is still some hope, maybe, for the rest (and I know already you are in full agreement with given your stance on racists) they are not worth the time or effort, they emerged from the darkness and will always be there on the fringe of society, mostly in the darkness thankfully.

Stop moaning ffs

hotmail.com wrote: »

It's not being anti Trump that's the problem (even though that's weird because you're not an American citizen presumably), it's that you dislike his voters using snobby and disparaging language about them.

I don't have to answer your questions. You have a severe issue that when challenged, you assume it's because the challenger is a supporter of Trump. You can't grasp the idea that you may be wrong.

I think half the American public being fed a constant feed of BS to elect a man so utterly unfit for office a donkey may as well be in the role and would be causing less damage than Trump currently is, is the actual ‘wrong’ here.

That’s without getting into the rampant racism and breaking of American society agenda he seems to be hell bent on and half the electorate are swallowing it and begging for more.

Fair enough call to call those people dumb at the least. But they are racist. And they are not just excusing his racism but joining in. They’re deserving of whatever comes to them names that fit or otherwise.