Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

serfboard

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Trump has turned politics into sports.

Trump has not turned politics into sports. It is the mainstream media that has done this - to keep viewers watching. This is why there was no proper exploration done of Trump's record in 2016 - the pretence that he and Hilary Clinton were in any way comparable was a fallacy perpetrated to keep the "competition" alive, and keep viewers on the edge of their seats rooting for their team. And I say this as someone who is no fan of Hilary Clinton and thinks that she was a disastrous choice engineered by the DNC establishment.

Remember, the Chairman of CBS admitted that Trump was good for their ratings:

Fortune wrote:

there is no doubt the billionaire reality TV star turned politician has meant big ratings — and income — for networks.

Leslie Moonves, the chairman of CBS, admitted as much on Monday. “It may not be good for America, but it’s damn good for CBS,” Moonves said

Of course, that charming individual, Moonves, resigned his position in the wake of sexual-assault allegations, missing out on $120 million dollars severance payment.

B0jangles wrote: »

As Rep. Brian Sims said back in 2015 "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression"

BonnieSituation wrote: »

See Northern Unionists for same

The problem with this is that those who have benefitted most never have to pay, and those that have least feel that what little they have is going to be taken away from them. This is part of what fuels resentment among poor whites in the US and poor Protestants in the North. They think that equality for others is going to mean even more inequality for them, whereas it is inequality in general that is a massive part of the problem.

Quin_Dub

peddlelies wrote: »

President Obama beat John McCain 365 to 173 in 2008, and similarly crushed Romney in 2012. For a very racist place, they sure do a bad job of showing it.

How many people do you think out of the entire US conform to white supremacy or neo nazi beliefs? I'm not saying they're insignificant because they are dangerous, but we have to be honest and say it's a tiny minute fringe on the very far right amplified by the media. When that covington kid was plastered all over every news site to score political racism points you have imagine things are very skewed, or the Smollett case even.

Disclaimer : I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just saying this overall "existential threat" of white supremacy is hugely exaggerated. ( Do disrespect meant to recent gun violence victims ).

As another poster pointed out , Trump wasn't elected because he's racist (he is) , he was elected because he tapped into general disaffection of a wide tranche of people that have been struggling for a long long time. The fact that his behaviours and attitudes have amplified and emboldened a certain sub-section of US society is just a horrible by-product of his election.

Globalisation has pushed a massive volume of manual/low educational requirements jobs away from Europe and the US to the far east and south america.

Those jobs are never coming back - That is a fact, but frustrated angry disenfranchised people will hear what they want to hear when told by someone like Trump that he can fix it.

In Europe , those people are also frustrated , but they have been protected to a greater or lesser extent from the worst of the impacts by the existence of the social safety net. They have access to education , healthcare etc.

None of those things are really available in the US, so the frustration builds and becomes generational..

Parents in Europe who lost their jobs or who's career stagnated in the 80's for example could at least get their kids to college and get them degrees so that they could step up and improve their family lot.

Again , not in the US , they have no money , so their kids are screwed too and likely their grand kids as well..

That's the groundswell of frustration that both Obama and Trump energised , albeit in vastly different ways.

Obama was seen by minorities (and others) as a chance for them to improve and break the cycle. Obamas approach was to hook into the optimism , Trump focused on the Anger.

Obama didn't really succeed in breaking the cycle , although he was severely limited due to trying to recover from the crash. So the things he could do , like equality legislation etc. whilst the right thing to do fed into the anger of certain sections of society - Those are the groups that form Trumps base - Starting with the birthers..

Trump connected to the anger and through his own personal animus to minorities and to liberal attitudes (equality being the main one) he built up a boogyman for people the hate on - The "Leftists" , The "Immigrant Invasion" etc.

He's an utterly horrible human being and he has used the legitimate anger and frustration of (generally) poorly educated people for his own personal gain.

Not all his supporters are poor unemployed working class people though. I reserve a special level of contempt for the educated wealthy (or religious) people that continue to support him , either because his policies and tax cuts line their pockets or because he is stacking the judiciary in their favour despite the fact that they know that nothing of what he is promising the rest of the country is true.

duploelabs

peddlelies wrote: »

President Obama beat John McCain 365 to 173 in 2008, and similarly crushed Romney in 2012. For a very racist place, they sure do a bad job of showing it.

How many people do you think out of the entire US conform to white supremacy or neo nazi beliefs? I'm not saying they're insignificant because they are dangerous, but we have to be honest and say it's a tiny minute fringe on the very far right amplified by the media. When that covington kid was plastered all over every news site to score political racism points you have imagine things are very skewed, or the Smollett case even.

Disclaimer : I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just saying this overall "existential threat" of white supremacy is hugely exaggerated. ( Do disrespect meant to recent gun violence victims ).

Do try to cut down on your consumption/parroting of Tucker Carlson

everlast75

duploelabs wrote: »

Do try to cut down on your consumption/parroting of Tucker Carlson

Speaking of which...

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1159439122378964992?s=20

When Fox deem it necessary to send Carlson away to cool off, it really doesn't seem to be the case that Trump is able to select the best people as his advisers.

serfboard

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Obama didn't really succeed in breaking the cycle , although he was severely limited due to trying to recover from the crash.

It wasn't just for economic reasons that Obama didn't suceed in many areas. It was also due to the scorched-earth policy of McConnell and the Republicans to simply oppose everything he proposed - a policy which Trump has followed through on by trying to reverse almost everything that Obama did manage to achieve, to much rejoicing from Republicans.

duploelabs

everlast75 wrote: »

Speaking of which...

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1159439122378964992?s=20

When Fox deem it necessary to send Carlson away to cool off, it really doesn't seem to be the case that Trump is able to select the best people as his advisers.

Who'll be the Trumpwhisperer when he's on his holibobs?

everlast75

duploelabs wrote: »

Who'll be the Trumpwhisperer when he's on his holibobs?

Sadly there's a line around the block of people happy to debase themselves to get on the Trump train.

Quin_Dub

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Globalisation has pushed a massive volume of manual/low educational requirements jobs away from Europe and the US to the far east and south america.

Those jobs are never coming back - That is a fact, but frustrated angry disenfranchised people will hear what they want to hear when told by someone like Trump that he can fix it.

Then why do "we" (US and Europe) need loads of immigrants to do jobs?

Gbear

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Then why do "we" (US and Europe) need loads of immigrants to do jobs?

Because it's not the low paid service jobs that have left but low and medium paid manufacturing jobs.

Quin_Dub

Deleted User wrote: »

Then why do "we" (US and Europe) need loads of immigrants to do jobs?

Gbear wrote: »

Because it's not the low paid service jobs that have left but low and medium paid manufacturing jobs.

Exactly - It's the Industrial jobs that required no particular education to get into that are gone for ever.

Back in the day you could leave school and start as an apprentice in a factory and have a job for life , that with overtime and seniority could leave you with a more than decent wage.

Coal-miners , Steel workers , Medium/Heavy industry production line jobs etc.

Now , if you have limited/no education in Europe/US you are stuck in very low level low paying jobs for ever.

And in the US this is further compounded by the total lack of any meaningful safety net.

So maybe pay people more and import a bit less?

This is the trouble, people only want to accept one part of reality that suits an overall argument. Seeing people who were against globalisation now claim it as an unavoidable end state so they can criticise parts of "the Right" is very strange.

peddlelies

duploelabs wrote: »

Do try to cut down on your consumption/parroting of Tucker Carlson
[YdTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfAqQeXYPOM[/YOUTUBE]

I haven't watched that segment it's something I already know to be true. If you want youtube to be some sort of basis for determining the level of racism among conservatives then look at this "hard right Hannity" video and the likes / comments for a black immigrant hoping to run for office. It's just a bs narrative that there's some widespread white supremacist movement on the right.

Quin_Dub

Deleted User wrote: »

So maybe pay people more and import a bit less?

This is the trouble, people only want to accept one part of reality that suits an overall argument. Seeing people who were against globalisation now claim it as an unavoidable end state so they can criticise parts of "the Right" is very strange.

I'm not against Globalisation at all, but it needs to be made better.

Those people that are currently losing out in Europe/US need to be looked after more. And that's not about increases to social welfare per se . It's a more fundamental structural change to allow them and their future generations to move up the curve.

This has to be done via increased access to vastly improved free education right from day one to ensure that no one misses out on the opportunity of education because of cost or access issues.

And that should funded by increased taxes on those that have benefited the most from Globalisation - The corporations and the 1%.

Quin_Dub

peddlelies wrote: »

I haven't watched that segment it's something I already know to be true. If you want youtube to be some sort of basis for determining the level of racism among conservatives then look at this "hard right Hannity" video and the likes / comments for a black immigrant hoping to run for office. It's just a bs narrative that there's some widespread white supremacist movement on the right.

I'd question how much of that "support" is down to the fact her opponent is the Fox News "Enemy du Jour" Alexandra Ocasio Cortez?

Are they really supporting her , or is it more that they truly hate AOC ?

I'm fairly certain that you could put anyone of any colour, creed or conviction on Fox News and if they said that their reason for being was to take down AOC , they'd get fairly universal support.

peddlelies

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I'm fairly certain that you could put anyone of any colour, creed or conviction on Fox News and if they said that their reason for being was to take down AOC , they'd get fairly universal support.

Cortez polls very poorly nationally, even in her home state so that's probably true.

duploelabs

peddlelies wrote: »

I haven't watched that segment it's something I already know to be true. If you want youtube to be some sort of basis for determining the level of racism among conservatives then look at this "hard right Hannity" video and the likes / comments for a black immigrant hoping to run for office. It's just a bs narrative that there's some widespread white supremacist movement on the right.

You didn't watch the video or acknowledge that you completely parroted Carlson

Dog Man Star

peddlelies wrote: »

Cortez polls very poorly nationally, even in her home state so that's probably true.

That's a Trump quote - show us one poll.

Quin_Dub

peddlelies wrote: »

Cortez polls very poorly nationally, even in her home state so that's probably true.

She polls about where every other member of congress polls.

She isn't particularly more or less popular at a national level than any other member of the House or Senate.

Having said that , she polls quite a bit above Mitch McConnell , who is massively unpopular Nationally and even in his home state.

So why are Fox News so utterly obsessed with her?

peddlelies

Dog Man Star wrote: »

That's a Trump quote - show us one poll.

Here's a previous post of mine from a couple of weeks ago. I even included Vox's spin to please the doubters.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...vorables-media

"A Quinnipiac poll released on Thursday morning found that 23 percent of Americans had a favorable view of the member of Congress, while 36 percent had an unfavorable view — a -13 overall approval rating. Thirty-eight percent hadn’t heard enough about her to have an informed opinion.

This new poll isn’t a one-off finding. Three prior surveys — one in January from Morning Consult, one in February from Fox, and a third in mid-March from Gallup — all found that more Americans had negative views of AOC than had positive ones. "

Here's one from her own state

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/19/aoc-...socialism.html

"Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has grown less popular in New York – even among Democrats – following Amazon’s decision to scrap its planned offices in Queens.

Thirty-one percent of registered voters in the state view the freshman House Democrat favorably, while 44 percent have an unfavorable view, according to a Siena College poll released Monday."

Dog Man Star

Quin_Dub wrote: »

As another poster pointed out , Trump wasn't elected because he's racist (he is) , he was elected because he tapped into general disaffection of a wide tranche of people that have been struggling for a long long time. The fact that his behaviours and attitudes have amplified and emboldened a certain sub-section of US society is just a horrible by-product of his election.

Globalisation has pushed a massive volume of manual/low educational requirements jobs away from Europe and the US to the far east and south america.

Those jobs are never coming back - That is a fact, but frustrated angry disenfranchised people will hear what they want to hear when told by someone like Trump that he can fix it.

In Europe , those people are also frustrated , but they have been protected to a greater or lesser extent from the worst of the impacts by the existence of the social safety net. They have access to education , healthcare etc.

None of those things are really available in the US, so the frustration builds and becomes generational..

Parents in Europe who lost their jobs or who's career stagnated in the 80's for example could at least get their kids to college and get them degrees so that they could step up and improve their family lot.

Again , not in the US , they have no money , so their kids are screwed too and likely their grand kids as well..

That's the groundswell of frustration that both Obama and Trump energised , albeit in vastly different ways.

Obama was seen by minorities (and others) as a chance for them to improve and break the cycle. Obamas approach was to hook into the optimism , Trump focused on the Anger.

Obama didn't really succeed in breaking the cycle , although he was severely limited due to trying to recover from the crash. So the things he could do , like equality legislation etc. whilst the right thing to do fed into the anger of certain sections of society - Those are the groups that form Trumps base - Starting with the birthers..

Trump connected to the anger and through his own personal animus to minorities and to liberal attitudes (equality being the main one) he built up a boogyman for people the hate on - The "Leftists" , The "Immigrant Invasion" etc.

He's an utterly horrible human being and he has used the legitimate anger and frustration of (generally) poorly educated people for his own personal gain.

Not all his supporters are poor unemployed working class people though. I reserve a special level of contempt for the educated wealthy (or religious) people that continue to support him , either because his policies and tax cuts line their pockets or because he is stacking the judiciary in their favour despite the fact that they know that nothing of what he is promising the rest of the country is true.

This is entirely correct. But it's important to note that Trump acts on personal interests alone. He has no agenda, but to keep himself in office and in the headlines. That is it. He is the lowest common denominator personified, the Daily Mail, the Sun, Fox News, Breitbart in human form. He can do this because he has no morals, no integrity and no shame.

He has no morals, no integrity and no shame because while he was born into wealth, he is not in the elite group he envies. He is the lotto winner who bought a house in Blackrock. He is laughed at and reviled by the neighbours, who worked hard for their wealth while he is just a lowlife who got lucky. A fat lowlife with bad hair and a fake tan.

It is the Clintons, Soros, Bezos he envies. He wishes he was one of them, but he never will be. He thought when he became President, he would be one of them. But instead the talk show hosts mock him mercilessly every single night. This is not the way he imagined it would be and he is bitter and angry and, boy oh boy, is everyone going to rue the day they mocked Trump. Getting even is all he cares about, no matter who suffers.

peddlelies

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So why are Fox News so utterly obsessed with her?

Ratings, just like why other cable networks have been obsessed with Trump since he ran in the primaries. Trump is an easy target for obvious reasons, Cortez is too though. Partisan hackery for the sole reason of making money at the expense of further dividing the country, I doubt the fat cats at the top lose a wink of sleep over it.

DrumSteve

peddlelies wrote: »

Ratings, just like why other cable networks have been obsessed with Trump since he ran in the primaries. Trump is an easy target for obvious reasons, Cortez is too though. Partisan hackery for the sole reason of making money at the expense of further dividing the country, I doubt the fat cats at the top lose a wink of sleep over it.

Fox News are obsessed with her because she is the embodiment of what a lot of their audience despise.

Dog Man Star

peddlelies wrote: »

Ratings, just like why other cable networks have been obsessed with Trump since he ran in the primaries. Trump is an easy target for obvious reasons, Cortez is too though. Partisan hackery for the sole reason of making money at the expense of further dividing the country, I doubt the fat cats at the top lose a wink of sleep over it.

Not like every other network. Fox News and Roger Ailes is a story worth reading. Not for this thread, as Trump is very much the last chapter in the story, not the first.

Professor Moriarty

peddlelies wrote: »

Here's a previous post of mine from a couple of weeks ago. I even included Vox's spin to please the doubters.

Both links don't work.

peddlelies

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Not like every other network. Fox News and Roger Ailes is a story worth reading. Not for this thread, as Trump is very much the last chapter in the story, not the first.

That's your opinion. I'll admit Fox's prime time shows have went in a much harder right wing bent from 2016 since O'Reilly and Kelly left though. The article below is a few years old but there's no newer data that I could find when I looked into a while back.

"In March, a Pew Research Center study -- yes, Pew -- found that 85 percent of MSNBC's programming is dedicated to "opinion," versus 15 percent that is dedicated to "news." Fox News dedicated just 55 percent of its programming to "opinion" and 45 percent to "news." (CNN dedicates 46 percent to "opinion" and 54 percent to "news.") During the 2012 election, the ratio of unfavorable to favorable treatment in stories on Barack Obama and Mitt Romney on MSNBC “was roughly 23-to-1; the negative-to-positive ratio on Fox News was 8-to-1.”

https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/12/is-msnbc-worse-than-fox-news-179175

peddlelies

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Both links don't work.

Link to the post, they should work there.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110714148&postcount=1300

Seanachai

Dog Man Star wrote: »

This is entirely correct. But it's important to note that Trump acts on personal interests alone. He has no agenda, but to keep himself in office and in the headlines. That is it. He is the lowest common denominator personified, the Daily Mail, the Sun, Fox News, Breitbart in human form. He can do this because he has no morals, no integrity and no shame.

He has no morals, no integrity and no shame because while he was born into wealth, he is not in the elite group he envies. He is the lotto winner who bought a house in Blackrock. He is laughed at and reviled by the neighbours, who worked hard for their wealth while he is just a lowlife who got lucky. A fat lowlife with bad hair and a fake tan.

It is the Clintons, Soros, Bezos he envies. He wishes he was one of them, but he never will be. He thought when he became President, he would be one of them. But instead the talk show hosts mock him mercilessly every single night. This is not the way he imagined it would be and he is bitter and angry and, boy oh boy, is everyone going to rue the day they mocked Trump. Getting even is all he cares about, no matter who suffers.

I'd class Trump as being ruthless and definitely a narcissist but I wouldn't even put him in the same level of sociopathy as the likes of the Clintons, Soros, Bezos etc. I don't doubt there are people in the leafy and coastal suburbs who worked for their money, I'd say a lot of them had a very good head start in life too though.

Dick phelan

Regarding the gun issue, is it horrible to say i'v tuned out at this stage. Yes it's awful people died but America has shown time after time their right to guns is more important than protecting people. I really felt if nothing of note happened after Sandy Hook nothing else will change it. I mean honestly if a crowd of small dead children doesn't make you decide enough is enough than what will? They'll blame the mental health system, every country has mentally ill people, difference is they don't have access to high powered weapons capable of killing dozens almost instantly. A mass shooting, our thoughts and prayers, people make noise about wanting more restrictions but nothing get's done, rinse and repeat.

James Brown

peddlelies wrote: »

Ratings, just like why other cable networks have been obsessed with Trump since he ran in the primaries. Trump is an easy target for obvious reasons, Cortez is too though. Partisan hackery for the sole reason of making money at the expense of further dividing the country, I doubt the fat cats at the top lose a wink of sleep over it.

But what about AOC?

MrFresh

DrumSteve wrote: »

Fox News are obsessed with her because she is the embodiment of what a lot of their audience despise.

A poor person who made something of themselves?