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Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]
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I hope it will be a peaceful protest on both sides, but I highly doubt it with Antifa involved. And if Antifa does initiate violence I hope the mayor has taken off the handcuffs from his police force. If anything, I’m guilty of not being above “I told you so.” Yes, I will be watching.You and notobtuse are a pair of total hypocrites.
Spend ages baning on about violence, gangs and so on.
Then the minute you think there's going to be a bit of violence, it's all popcorn and PPV.
So come on, either you're or against violence. You can't be against it but get off on watching it.You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!
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Umberto Ecu lists his signs of fascism.
Seems to fit the proud boys.
The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”0 -
Maybe you should start a proud boys thread0
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I hope it will be a peaceful protest on both sides, but I highly doubt it with Antifa involved. And if Antifa does initiate violence I hope the mayor has taken off the handcuffs from his police force. If anything, I’m guilty of not being above “I told you so.” Yes, I will be watching.
Still waiting for proof he put the hand cuffs on the police.they/them/theirs
And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek
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Obsession with the USSR / brandashing hammer and sickleUmberto Ecu lists his signs of fascism.
Seems to fit the proud boys.
The cult of tradition
Unions opposing progress, ludditeismThe rejection of modernism.
March to oppose every change, object to political policies because of who says them, not whats being said e.g (FG ArE RiGhT wInG FaScIsTs)The cult of action for action’s sake.
Constant splintering of the left, 'TERF's' etc...Disagreement is treason.
The constant ridicule and demands to destroy the wealthyFear of difference.
Climate alarmism, rallying poor people to blame rich people for their shortcomings.Appeal to social frustration.
Its all successive banks/governments/corporations fault. White people cause all the problemsThe obsession with a plot.
White men oppress everyone but at the same time fragile/toxic masculinity and are weakThe enemy is both strong and weak.
Assaults on conservative women , calling black conservatives 'uncle tom'Contempt for the weak.
"punch a nazi" , black block , shut down meetings etc...Machismo and weaponry.
Yaaayyy woke celebrities, george takai is a hero etc....Selective populism.
"undocumented migrants / illegal immigrants" "dreamers" "Gender is a spectrum" "Cancelling people who disagree with us" etc...Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak.0 -
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Far right group the Oath Keepers agree with Antifa that the "proud boys" event will provide cover and be attended by white supremacists and nazi groups wishing to attend.
https://oathkeepers.org/2019/08/oath-keepers-will-not-be-participating-in-the-august-17-rally-in-portland-or/0 -
Antifa isn’t happy with the mayor of Portland after he promised to “use whatever means necessary” to prevent violence this weekend. Preventing that violence may mean arresting the masked Antifa anarchists who are coming specifically for that purpose. The spokesperson for PopMob, a group that organizes these left-wing rallies stated “If we don’t go, they’re (far right groups) going to continue to grow and continue to come back. Honestly, the growing far-right movement is far more dangerous than the decision to show up and oppose it...” “The bottom line is that we are all on the same team and we all have the same end goals, which is we don’t want fascists feeling welcome in our community.” The Proud Boys organizer stated that the protest scheduled for this Saturday is specifically designed to confront the violent tactics of Antifa: “That group of Antifa there in Portland needs to be exposed for who they are..."
So, common sense would dictate that if there is no violence on the part of Antifa this weekend then the right-wing groups would stop showing up in Portland. But Antifa has indicated that it is always willing to engage in violence and has said violence is “exactly what should happen when the far-right attempts to invade our town.” But the big question is does Antifa have any common sense? From prior videos of Antifa marches in Portland, it seems whenever there aren’t any right-wing groups to focus on, Antifa immediately turns on the Portland police.
This weekend should be interesting.You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!
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Antifa are counter protesters so when discussing them it would be necessary to discuss who they are countering.
You cannot apply this logic to Antifa though.
They are an incredibly dishonest organisation. They make up things and then protest against it.
It's like if I decided to call you a white supremacist and protest outside your home.
Are you the bad guy? Or am I?Far right group the Oath Keepers agree with Antifa that the "proud boys" event will provide cover and be attended by white supremacists and nazi groups wishing to attend.
https://oathkeepers.org/2019/08/oath...n-portland-or/
If I make a meetup group about Irish politics, and some lads from the IRA join, does that mean I'm a terrorist?
I'm not trying to attack you here, but this is what I find most frustrating about people on the left - they never think through their arguments.0 -
Far right group the Oath Keepers agree with Antifa that the "proud boys" event will provide cover and be attended by white supremacists and nazi groups wishing to attend.
https://oathkeepers.org/2019/08/oath-keepers-will-not-be-participating-in-the-august-17-rally-in-portland-or/
So even though they have a explicitly anti white supremacist/white nationalist stance they're still far right to you? Is far right honestly anything and everything you don't like? The Oath Keepers have literally psychically removed white nationalists from events before, yet in your eyes they still deserve being labelled similarly even though they are clearly not in line with each other.0 -
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All I would say is please, please don’t import American politics to Ireland. The US is going through a period of extremism and people chasing conspiracy theories and basically what’s starting to look like something akin to a civil war.
Post civil war Ireland’s a very consensus building PR democracy that tends to gravitate towards finding solutions based on discussion.
The US has always had very far right extremes and there’s very extreme elements emerging to counteract them too. It’s nothing new other than that the current mainstream of GOP politics decided to play with fire and reawaken a lot of insanity that had been somewhat pushed to the shadows during the 60s and 70s.
Bear in mind that the US had had a president assassinated in living memory and various other political killings not to mention attempts at them over the years.
Aspects of the US are wonderful, optimistic, diverse and creative but other aspects are still in their heads fighting the identity politics of the civil war or some bonkers modern online bubble version of the same and it’s a society that’s armed to the teeth (particularly in areas with that kind of thinking).
It also has an underlying issue with racism that is something pretty alien to here and shouldn’t be imported, yet I’m seeing it slipping into the rhetoric of our own mini American far right.
All I’m saying is maybe look at applying a bit of a filter to adopting American culture - some of it’s positive and some of it is absolutely toxic.
I think what you’re seeing has direct parallels to The Troubles in Northern Ireland too - you’ll get an extreme reaction to extremism from the far right in much the same way as that mess up north spiraled into a total disaster.
If the US doesn’t calm it down and start trying to restore centrist politics and big vision leadership that seeks to unite the country, parts of it will just spiral back to the mess they were in before the 1960s.
It needs to be calmed down and you’ve Trump and co in office pouring petrol on it for narrow political reasons that are entirely to do with self promotion without any notion of what it might do to the country.0 -
Lackadaisical wrote: »All I would say is please, please don’t import American politics to Ireland. The US is going through a period of extremism and people chasing conspiracy theories and basically what’s starting to look like something akin to a civil war.
Post civil war Ireland’s a very consensus building PR democracy that tends to gravitate towards finding solutions based on discussion.
The US has always had very far right extremes and there’s very extreme elements emerging to counteract them too. It’s nothing new other than that the current mainstream of GOP politics decided to play with fire and reawaken a lot of insanity that had been somewhat pushed to the shadows during the 60s and 70s.
Bare in mind that the US had had a president assassinated in living memory and various other political killings not to mention attempts at them over the years.
Aspects of the US are wonderful, optimistic, diverse and creative but other aspects are still in their heads fighting the identity politics of the civil war or some bonkers modern online bubble version of the same and it’s a society that’s armed to the teeth (particularly in areas with that kind of thinking).
It also has an underlying issue with racism that is something pretty alien to here and shouldn’t be imported, yet I’m seeing it slipping into the rhetoric of our own mini American far right.
All I’m saying is maybe look at applying a bit of a filter to adopting American culture - some of it’s positive and some of it is absolutely toxic.
The people I see continuously talking about race is the left. They make everything about race. They're race-baiting. Stop taking the bait.0 -
The people I see continuously talking about race is the left. They make everything about race. They're race-baiting. Stop taking the bait.
Other than the people on the right who are continuously talking about race, religion, homophobic stuff and so on.
Maybe have a peak outside your silo once in a while!
It’s igniting into a mess of identity politics and it is very definitely being driven from the right, but those divides exist and are raw in the US, particularly around race. You’re talking about a country that had an equivalent of apartheid in operation until the 1960s and the aftermath of that is a huge societal scar that’s now being poked at and prodded at by those who wish to cause divides.
I don’t even know why I bother engaging with threads like this. There’s a % who want a fight and not a solution. It’s exactly like the kind of mentality that drove the Troubles.0 -
Appears by your left-good, right-bad, attitude you are doing exactly what you are complaining about others doing. Odd!Lackadaisical wrote: »Other than the people on the right who are continuously talking about race, religion, homophobic stuff and so on.
Maybe have a peak outside your silo once in a while!
It’s igniting into a mess of identity politics and it is very definitely being driven from the right, but those divides exist and are raw in the US, particularly around race. You’re talking about a country that had an equivalent of apartheid in operation until the 1960s and the aftermath of that is a huge societal scar that’s now being poked at and prodded at by those who wish to cause divides.
I don’t even know why I bother engaging with threads like this. There’s a % who want a fight and not a solution. It’s exactly like the kind of mentality that drove the Troubles.You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!
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Lackadaisical wrote: »Other than the people on the right who are continuously talking about race, religion, homophobic stuff and so on.
Maybe have a peak outside your silo once in a while!
It’s igniting into a mess of identity politics and it is very definitely being driven from the right, but those divides exist and are raw in the US, particularly around race. You’re talking about a country that had an equivalent of apartheid in operation until the 1960s and the aftermath of that is a huge societal scar that’s now being poked at and prodded at by those who wish to cause divides.
I don’t even know why I bother engaging with threads like this. There’s a % who want a fight and not a solution. It’s exactly like the kind of mentality that drove the Troubles.
Whenever I see the right talking about race, it is always along the lines of here's the left bringing race into it again.
Here's a classic example:
Trump: (I'm paraphrasing) Baltimore is a shíthole full of rats.
The Left: Trump thanks black people are rats!
Only a racist would see the word rats and think of black people.0 -
Appears by your left-good, right-bad, attitude you are doing exactly what you are complaining about others doing. Odd!
Well the center left certainly isn’t having race baiting rallies whereas the mainstream right, holding office, most certainly is.
There’s an violent element of the left that’s reacting to the political mess, but they aren’t the ones driving it.
Until you get a reemergence if the centre, and in US politics that’s not going to be solved.
It most definitely is not “both sides are as bad as each other”. The mainstream of US politics on the right has been stirring and stirring and stirring some more.
The extreme violent nutters on both sides of politics are a reaction to the identity politics and the stirring.
You can’t turn up the heat and then look on in horror as the pot boils over denying all responsibility for the mess.0 -
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That sure as hell appears to be the case here in the US.The right think the left are wrong; the left think the right are evil.You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!
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Lackadaisical wrote: »Other than the people on the right who are continuously talking about race, religion, homophobic stuff and so on.
Maybe have a peak outside your silo once in a while!
It’s igniting into a mess of identity politics and it is very definitely being driven from the right, but those divides exist and are raw in the US, particularly around race. You’re talking about a country that had an equivalent of apartheid in operation until the 1960s and the aftermath of that is a huge societal scar that’s now being poked at and prodded at by those who wish to cause divides.
I don’t even know why I bother engaging with threads like this. There’s a % who want a fight and not a solution. It’s exactly like the kind of mentality that drove the Troubles.
It absolutely isn't being "driven" by the right. The left engage in identity politics just as much if not more-so. Which side of the political spectrum do you think drives all the PC madness in America, is obsessed with the number of non-whites in Hollywood films, complains about things like #oscarssowhite, has an infinity to groups like black lives matter, cheers on and employs those openly hostile to white people (Sarah Jeong for example), constantly refers to "White Privilege" forgetting ofcourse that the only privilege that really exists is that of wealth etc.
The right have their identity politicists but it's become huge in the very recent past amongst the left in America.
I agree that this kind of American politics is best not exported to these shores.0 -
You’re looking at a society that is deeply scarred by very recent apartheid type policies that were only resolved (by federal force of law) in the 1960s and dire race relations that were enshrined in law in many states until that era.
That was driven by the historical right of American politics and there’s an element of that thinking still around.
It’s why race is such a charged issue in modern American politics and hasn’t gone away. It’s also why you’ve extreme sensitivity to race and other topics.
Trying to view American politics without that backdrop is like trying to pretend Northern Ireland has no sectarian history or deep scars from it.
If the US doesn’t manage to restore the center this keeps getting worse and worse. It needs leadership that unites the country, all Trump does is exploit divides to empower himself. I don’t even think he’s reorienting the right, just the pure political marketing and pushing all the fear trigger buttons.0 -
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Lackadaisical wrote: »You’re looking at a society that is deeply scarred by very recent apartheid type policies that were only resolved (by federal force of law) in the 1960s and dire race relations that were enshrined in law in many states until that era.
That was driven by the historical right of American politics and there’s an element of that thinking still around.
It wasn't. The Democrats were the party of the racists for a long time, who defended slavery. It was Eisenhower (a Republican) who speeded up desegregation (started by Truman, a Democrat) and declared it a national security issue. He also passed to Civil Rights act through Congress.
Again, you are taking the lazy option of assuming the right i.e. Republicans were a collective bunch of racists or racism supporters, and the left i.e. Democrats were the good guys. It's too simplistic, as with most things it wasn't so black and white. Look up Robert Byrd, for example.Lackadaisical wrote: »It’s why race is such a charged issue in modern American politics and hasn’t gone away. It’s also why you’ve extreme sensitivity to race and other topics.
Trying to view American politics without that backdrop is like trying to pretend Northern Ireland has no sectarian history or deep scars from it.
If the US doesn’t manage to restore the center this keeps getting worse and worse. It needs leadership that unites the country, all Trump does is exploit divides to empower himself. I don’t even think he’s reorienting the right, just the pure political marketing and pushing all the fear trigger buttons.
I agree with all of this. But you stated that it's the right driving the Identity Politics of America and I simply disagree, in that the left now does it just as much.0 -
I think you’ve also got to disconnect the idea that you can neatly package things into two camps of left and right though. There’s most definitely a huge issue with racism and it’s emanating from a group that are effectively trying to stoke up the horrors of the worst of the old racist era and they align themselves with Trump whether he’s courting them or not, he’s attracted them by pressing all the hate and fear buttons to get votes.
On the other side of it pressing all those hate and fear buttons has driven people into identity politics blocs.
The fundamental problem is Trump. He’s and his team are populists who are liking to exploit all sorts of divides and extremism elements to ensure they remain in power. They’re playing with the far right against the far left. They’re turning what we’re pragmatic discussions about climate change into vicious political nonsense. They’re putting the religious fundamentalists against the LGBT community and others. They have done the classic “us” vs “them”.
I don’t think these guys are Republicans. They’re nothing but sh1t stirrers for their own political agenda, which would seem to be about enrichment of a clique and experiencing power rather than actually doing anything for the country.
The old GOP core were something you might not necessarily agree with, but you could argue with and had a clear philosophy about free market capitalism and very light regulation and so on. The Democrats at their core had a slightly more social democratic model but not exactly what you’d call a socialist left leaning party either, they’re somewhere to the right of our centre left on many economic issues.
The US needs to get back its centre and people need to stop being terrified of “others”. They’re all Americans and when you get them on the same page and accepting that they’ve that in common, they’re great.
This is divide and conquer nonsense and it will destroy the US if it keeps going. America (or Ireland or anywhere) can’t function by having ****e, populist leadership sowing toxic politics and stoking up fear and that’s precisely what the current lot are doing.
It’s a multicultural, multiethnic society that was always divided but it functions when it finds the stuff that holds it together and there is a lot of that. You can either point at the differences (from either the racist right or the PC identity politics that keeps creation silos) or you can find the positivity and unite the place. One path leads to total disaster the other leads to one of the most positive places on the planet.
The GOP raised a populist cuckoo and needs to sort itself out.
A serious leader needs to emerge and I’m not seeing that on the Democratic side of the presidential election either so far.0 -
Whenever I see the right talking about race, it is always along the lines of here's the left bringing race into it again.
Here's a classic example:
Trump: (I'm paraphrasing) Baltimore is a shíthole full of rats.
The Left: Trump thanks black people are rats!
Only a racist would see the word rats and think of black people.
Look at the context and at whom his comments are directed. Always about minorities. Very similar language that was used about the Jews in Germany.0 -
2019, land of the free.
Absolute shameful disgrace
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1162060908774002688?s=190 -
Look at the context and at whom his comments are directed. Always about minorities. Very similar language that was used about the Jews in Germany.
I literally don't know how to reply to this.
I'm shaking my head going back and forth between "he's joking" and "that's unbelievably crazy".
Can you confirm if you're joking or serious?0 -
You seem to have joined the ranks of propagandists throughout history who have long known that 'repetition acts as the propellant of falsehoods.' It’s Democrats who view minority communities as political captives and continually hold them captive with free flowing money. The Democrats history of actually enhancing the prosperity and well-being of minorities is a lesson in abject failure. Minorities have many more opportunities under the leadership of Trump and Republicans.Lackadaisical wrote: »I think you’ve also got to disconnect the idea that you can neatly package things into two camps of left and right though. There’s most definitely a huge issue with racism and it’s emanating from a group that are effectively trying to stoke up the horrors of the worst of the old racist era and they align themselves with Trump whether he’s courting them or not, he’s attracted them by pressing all the hate and fear buttons to get votes.
On the other side of it pressing all those hate and fear buttons has driven people into identity politics blocs.
The fundamental problem is Trump. He’s and his team are populists who are liking to exploit all sorts of divides and extremism elements to ensure they remain in power. They’re playing with the far right against the far left. They’re turning what we’re pragmatic discussions about climate change into vicious political nonsense. They’re putting the religious fundamentalists against the LGBT community and others. They have done the classic “us” vs “them”.
I don’t think these guys are Republicans. They’re nothing but sh1t stirrers for their own political agenda, which would seem to be about enrichment of a clique and experiencing power rather than actually doing anything for the country.
The old GOP core were something you might not necessarily agree with, but you could argue with and had a clear philosophy about free market capitalism and very light regulation and so on. The Democrats at their core had a slightly more social democratic model but not exactly what you’d call a socialist left leaning party either, they’re somewhere to the right of our centre left on many economic issues.
The US needs to get back its centre and people need to stop being terrified of “others”. They’re all Americans and when you get them on the same page and accepting that they’ve that in common, they’re great.
This is divide and conquer nonsense and it will destroy the US if it keeps going. America (or Ireland or anywhere) can’t function by having ****e, populist leadership sowing toxic politics and stoking up fear and that’s precisely what the current lot are doing.
It’s a multicultural, multiethnic society that was always divided but it functions when it finds the stuff that holds it together and there is a lot of that. You can either point at the differences (from either the racist right or the PC identity politics that keeps creation silos) or you can find the positivity and unite the place. One path leads to total disaster the other leads to one of the most positive places on the planet.
The GOP raised a populist cuckoo and needs to sort itself out.
A serious leader needs to emerge and I’m not seeing that on the Democratic side of the presidential election either so far.You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!
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I’m a propagandist now?! Jaysus. I give up!0
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Warrant out for "patriot prayer" leader Joey Gibson. Looks like tomorrow will be a very small turnout for the far right. Antifa won't have much to do.0
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Lackadaisical wrote: »I think you’ve also got to disconnect the idea that you can neatly package things into two camps of left and right though. There’s most definitely a huge issue with racism and it’s emanating from a group that are effectively trying to stoke up the horrors of the worst of the old racist era and they align themselves with Trump whether he’s courting them or not, he’s attracted them by pressing all the hate and fear buttons to get votes.
On the other side of it pressing all those hate and fear buttons has driven people into identity politics blocs.
The fundamental problem is Trump. He’s and his team are populists who are liking to exploit all sorts of divides and extremism elements to ensure they remain in power. They’re playing with the far right against the far left. They’re turning what we’re pragmatic discussions about climate change into vicious political nonsense. They’re putting the religious fundamentalists against the LGBT community and others. They have done the classic “us” vs “them”.
I don’t think these guys are Republicans. They’re nothing but sh1t stirrers for their own political agenda, which would seem to be about enrichment of a clique and experiencing power rather than actually doing anything for the country.
The old GOP core were something you might not necessarily agree with, but you could argue with and had a clear philosophy about free market capitalism and very light regulation and so on. The Democrats at their core had a slightly more social democratic model but not exactly what you’d call a socialist left leaning party either, they’re somewhere to the right of our centre left on many economic issues.
The US needs to get back its centre and people need to stop being terrified of “others”. They’re all Americans and when you get them on the same page and accepting that they’ve that in common, they’re great.
This is divide and conquer nonsense and it will destroy the US if it keeps going. America (or Ireland or anywhere) can’t function by having ****e, populist leadership sowing toxic politics and stoking up fear and that’s precisely what the current lot are doing.
It’s a multicultural, multiethnic society that was always divided but it functions when it finds the stuff that holds it together and there is a lot of that. You can either point at the differences (from either the racist right or the PC identity politics that keeps creation silos) or you can find the positivity and unite the place. One path leads to total disaster the other leads to one of the most positive places on the planet.
The GOP raised a populist cuckoo and needs to sort itself out.
A serious leader needs to emerge and I’m not seeing that on the Democratic side of the presidential election either so far.
Tulsi Gabbard for me personally.0
This discussion has been closed.
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