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Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

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    #3722
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Tony EH wrote: »
    That's got nothing whatsoever with being a "proud white man".

    You're proud of what exactly?

    Proud myself,my achievements an how I live.
    Are you proud of yourself too?


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    #3723
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Proud myself,my achievements an how I live.
    Are you proud of yourself too?

    That has nothing to do with your "whiteness".


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    #3724
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,438 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Asinine response! Robert E Lee was a great military man, and is celebrated for military accomplishments. Abraham Lincoln originally picked him to lead the Union Army but unfortunately he chose to keep his allegiances to his state of Virginia. Find me one great person who doesn’t have things in their past that would be judged horrible by today’s standards. But that doesn’t mean we should eliminate from our history people who didn’t confirm to today’s values. The total picture should be part of the entire story. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were great US presidents and also owned slaves. Should they be eliminated from history, statues and paintings destroyed, removed from our currency… and do you think all their admirers are racists?

    Robert E Lee wasn’t a great military man. He was a man who fought for the right to own other people. On top of that he was a traitor to his own country. You can dance around that if you want. But he lead an army, against his own government for the right to own slaves.

    Why the **** would anyone put a statue up to that? Racists actually, no need to answer.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #3725
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Tony EH wrote: »
    That has nothing to do with your "whiteness".

    To me it does Tony.


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    #3726
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,438 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Proud myself,my achievements an how I live.
    Are you proud of yourself too?

    I’m very proud of myself and my children.

    They could be purple and I’d feel the same. What does being white have to do with it?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #3727
    Billy Mays
    Registered Users Posts: 3,237 ✭✭✭Billy Mays


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Billy Mays wrote: »
    Hate to break it to you but fine people don't go to neo nazi/white supremacy rallies
    I doubt any of those who merely wished to protect the monument of Robert E Lee go to neo nazi/white supremacy rallies. Try again.
    And yet they did because that's exactly what the Unite The Right rally was


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    #3728
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Billy Mays wrote: »
    Nope

    It was a rally organised by and featuring speeches by known neo nazis and white supremacists.

    I can post an image of the poster for the rally again if you so wish. I'm sure you've seen it before though
    I see you just ignore the many posts that indicate there were good AND bad people there. Don't be so obtuse.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • Options
    #3729
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Brian? wrote: »
    I’m very proud of myself and my children.

    They could be purple and I’d feel the same. What does being white have to do with it?

    Because i am white. If I was black I would be a proud black man.
    Stop trying to find issues where there are none.

    You are not in Portland face to face with the proud boys. You are on a public forum in Ireland.


  • Options
    #3730
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    In terms of military achievement, Lee was a great man. But he was also a man of his time and like many men of his time had many a dubious attributes that would be out of place with our 21st century thinking.

    As far as I'm concerned, and I'd be middle the roads politically in general, while being left leaning on a number of issues, I think the statue should have stayed and have said so before on this site.

    If people are going to demand the removal of statues of historical figures like Robert E. Lee, then there's a long, long, list of other statues of people from the past with dubious beliefs that can be removed too and there'd be many a surprising figure in that list.

    Honestly though, this thread should not get bogged down in another debate about statues.


  • Options
    #3731
    Billy Mays
    Registered Users Posts: 3,237 ✭✭✭Billy Mays


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Billy Mays wrote: »
    Nope

    It was a rally organised by and featuring speeches by known neo nazis and white supremacists.

    I can post an image of the poster for the rally again if you so wish. I'm sure you've seen it before though
    I see you just ignore the many posts that indicate there were good AND bad people there. Don't be so obtuse.
    Simple question

    Would you go to a protest/rally for something you believe in if it was organised by neo nazis or white supremacists?


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    #3732
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    To me it does Tony.

    Why? Your skin colour has no bearing on your "achievements".


  • Options
    #3733
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    If I was black I would be a proud black man.

    I'd ask the same question then.


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    #3734
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Brian? wrote: »
    Robert E Lee wasn’t a great military man. He was a man who fought for the right to own other people. On top of that he was a traitor to his own country. You can dance around that if you want. But he lead an army, against his own government for the right to own slaves.

    Why the **** would anyone put a statue up to that? Racists actually, no need to answer.
    Lee was a great military man and it is commendable that he be celebrated for such.

    He always falls in the top 10 US generals of history and is often ranked higher then Ulysses S. Grant, the general who defeated him.

    https://www.neatorama.com/2010/04/27/top-ten-generals/

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #3735
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Because i am white. If I was black I would be a proud black man.
    Stop trying to find issues where there are none.

    You are not in Portland face to face with the proud boys. You are on a public forum in Ireland.

    But you are also Irish.. but not a proud Irishman because you are not proud of Ireland..


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    #3736
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Lee was a great military man and it is commendable that he be celebrated for such.

    He always falls in the top 10 US generals of history and is often ranked higher then Ulysses S. Grant, the general who defeated him.

    https://www.neatorama.com/2010/04/27/top-ten-generals/

    Lee hated the USA and wanted black people to be slaves. He was a traitor, a racist and a loser.

    The only reason these statues were put up was as a reminder to the black people who was in charge.


  • Options
    #3737
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Billy Mays wrote: »
    Simple question

    Would you go to a protest/rally for something you believe in if it was organised by neo nazis or white supremacists?
    The simple answer is no, but a more complex answer were if there were an issue involved that I was passionate about I might go, even though if was organized by neo nazis or white supremacists. But I'd be sure to wear a T-Shirt that said something like 'Hate And Violence Has No Place Here' and be sure I'd keep myself far away from that hateful lot.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • Options
    #3738
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    20Cent wrote: »
    Lee hated the USA and wanted black people to be slaves. He was a traitor, a racist and a loser.

    The only reason these statues were put up was as a reminder to the black people who was in charge.
    Do you get your history from little prizes included in a box of Cracker Jack?

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • Options
    #3739
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    notobtuse wrote: »
    The simple answer is no, but a more complex answer were if there were an issue involved that I was passionate about I might go, even though if was organized by neo nazis or white supremacists. But I'd be sure to wear a T-Shirt that said something like 'Hate And Violence Has No Place Here' and be sure I'd keep myself far away from that hateful lot.


    Lol.


  • Options
    #3740
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Why? Your skin colour has no bearing on your "achievements".

    You are a sad individual Tony. But I wish you well


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    #3741
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Do you get your history from little prizes included in a box of Cracker Jack?

    Lol. Top comment


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    #3742
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Asinine response! Robert E Lee was a great military man, and is celebrated for military accomplishments. Abraham Lincoln originally picked him to lead the Union Army but unfortunately he chose to keep his allegiances to his state of Virginia. Find me one great person who doesn’t have things in their past that would be judged horrible by today’s standards. But that doesn’t mean we should eliminate from our history people who didn’t confirm to today’s values. The total picture should be part of the entire story. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were great US presidents and also owned slaves. Should they be eliminated from history, statues and paintings destroyed, removed from our currency… and do you think all their admirers are racists?

    Propagandist nonsense. Hitler did well strategically in the beginning, where's his statue?
    Should never eliminate from history and should never celebrate racists. He didn't conform to the values of his own day, in fact they'd a war over it.
    It's about celebrating them. Lee's own family were okay with it being taken down ffs.


  • Options
    #3743
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,438 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Because i am white. If I was black I would be a proud black man.
    Stop trying to find issues where there are none.

    You are not in Portland face to face with the proud boys. You are on a public forum in Ireland.

    I’m not trying to find issues. I’m trying to understand.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Options
    #3744
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,438 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Lee was a great military man and it is commendable that he be celebrated for such.

    He always falls in the top 10 US generals of history and is often ranked higher then Ulysses S. Grant, the general who defeated him.

    https://www.neatorama.com/2010/04/27/top-ten-generals/

    Good for him. He was fighting for an immoral cause. There’s a reason the Germans don’t put up statues of Rommel.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Options
    #3745
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    You are a sad individual Tony. But I wish you well

    So, you've no answer then.

    Quelle surprise.


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    #3746
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,438 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Do you get your history from little prizes included in a box of Cracker Jack?

    Do you know when the statue was erected by any chance?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Options
    #3747
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Propagandist nonsense. Hitler did well strategically in the beginning, where's his statue?
    Should never eliminate from history and should never celebrate racists. He didn't conform to the values of his own day, in fact they'd a war over it.
    It's about celebrating them. Lee's own family were okay with it being taken down ffs.

    Honestly, if we're going down that route Matt, there's a lot of statues that can be pulled down.

    We can start with this man.

    wp1bdd1d95_06.jpg


    Statues serve as historical reference points, both good and bad. Pulling them down won't eliminate racism one iota. In fact, it'll just encourage people to forget the more dubious parts of their history.


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    #3748
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Tony EH wrote: »
    So, you've no answer then.

    Quelle surprise.

    Faux outrage to go along with your faux leather jacket


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    #3749
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Brian? wrote: »
    Do you know when the statue was erected by any chance?
    Didn’t have a box of Crack Jack available so had to look it up. It was commissioned in 1917 by members of the National Sculpture Society and dedicated in 1924. I understand it is still there because of a court ruling that local authorities in Charlottesville cannot remove two Confederate statues because they are war memorials protected by state law.

    I think this one will be even harder for social justice warriors to get removed…
    270px-Stone_Mountain%2C_the_carving%2C_and_the_Train.jpeg

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #3750
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Faux outrage to go along with your faux leather jacket

    You're just posting shit now. Go away.


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    #3751
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    To me it does Tony.

    That sounds pretty deluded...
    notobtuse wrote: »
    Do you get your history from little prizes included in a box of Cracker Jack?

    The statues were put up during the Jim Crow era, they were entirely about race. You can try to diminish the other poster as much as you want but it doesn't change that fact.


This discussion has been closed.
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