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Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

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    #4292
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ironicname wrote: »
    Indeed it was.

    If Antifa define trump or the proud boys as fascists and therefore all supporters of either are legitimate targets to oppose violently then I completely disagree with them.

    So, back to my question. Why not debate this instead of constant ad hominem attacks, with this bizarre fascination with out people not debating honestly.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #4293
    Ironicname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    Brian? wrote: »
    So, back to my question. Why not debate this instead of constant ad hominem attacks, with this bizarre fascination with out people not debating honestly.

    I have been debating this. I've noticed that you are intent on disagreeing with anyone who has an issue with antifa yet in constant agreement with people who champion them.

    I have no problem with that but when you say you are unbiased or aren't pro antifa it makes you look a little disingenuous.

    I'll ask you straight out and then will make no further reference to it;. Do you think that antifa, who violently oppose trump supporters, are a violent mob who should not be supported?


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    #4294
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ironicname wrote: »
    I have been debating this. I've noticed that you are intent on disagreeing with anyone who has an issue with antifa yet in constant agreement with people who champion them.

    I have no problem with that but when you say you are unbiased or aren't pro antifa it makes you look a little disingenuous.

    I'll ask you straight out and then will make no further reference to it;. Do you think that antifa, who violently oppose trump supporters, are a violent mob who should not be supported?

    Jesus Christ almighty. Why this again?

    I never said I was unbiased, I never said I was neutral. But I don’t disagree with everyone “who has an issue with Antifa”. I disagree with people spreading lies and half truths. I disagree with people calling Antifa terrorists. I disagree that Antifa are really much of a threat.

    The question above is not a “straight question”. It presupposes that Antifa violently oppose Trump supporters. With a heavy implication this is a common occurrence. I have yet to see sufficient evidence for this.

    If Antifa went around randomly attacking people, no way I’d support them. But that’s not what they do. They counter protest what they believe are far right marches. I disagree with their definition of fascists, it’s too broad. So broad it damages their actual correct protesting of fascist marches. But sympathise with their stated aim of opposing fascism.

    I wonder if you’re thinking of this is too black and white terms to be honest. Some members of Antifa are idiots who are quick to violence. But there is no unifying organisation of Antifa. It’s not an homogeneous organisation with a centralised leadership and a set of governing rules. So no, I can’t condemn Antifa. I can condemn some of the things Antifa do. These 2 things are not a contradiction.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #4295
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ironicname wrote: »
    I have been debating this. I've noticed that you are intent on disagreeing with anyone who has an issue with antifa yet in constant agreement with people who champion them.

    I have no problem with that but when you say you are unbiased or aren't pro antifa it makes you look a little disingenuous.

    I'll ask you straight out and then will make no further reference to it;. Do you think that antifa, who violently oppose trump supporters, are a violent mob who should not be supported?

    So you believe the Proud Boys are not
    Fascists, is this correct?

    Who are fascists in your opinion?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #4296
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    I think Antifa has a violent element but we need the like of Antifa. There is no need for violence and anyone committing violence should be arrested. It's very uncomfortable that the main movement Trump is having issue with is the anti fascist movement. It's a movement, be interesting to see how he defines membership or protests. Might he ban any anti facist protest? Be handy for the Proud Boys and Tiki dirt.


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    #4297
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Brian? wrote: »
    What’s pathetic is continually trying to twist my words in order to score some points.

    “Mighty pathetic” is an oxymoron by the way. I can never forgive that.
    Twist your words? That you support Antifa because of their so-called 'stated aim?' Perhaps it would be best to remember... 'Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.'

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #4298
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,857 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It's very uncomfortable that the main movement Trump is having issue with is the anti fascist movement. Might he ban any anti facist protest?.

    A movement that calls itself Anti fascist, that is all.

    Hard to go along with it, to pretend that is what they are.


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    #4299
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Danzy wrote: »
    A movement that calls itself Anti fascist, that is all.

    Hard to go along with it, to pretend that is what they are.

    It's not all mindless people looking for a fight. I'd image there are some anti fascists in their number.


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    #4300
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It's not all mindless people looking for a fight. I'd image there are some anti fascists in their number.
    You're correct. In this video I think there was one person in the opening clip who wasn't mindless. :pac:

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #4301
    Ironicname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    Brian? wrote:
    So you believe the Proud Boys are not Fascists, is this correct?

    Absolutely. I see no evidence whatsoever that the proud boys as a group are fascists.
    Brian? wrote:
    Who are fascists in your opinion?

    The KKK, white supremacists etc.


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    #4302
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ironicname wrote: »
    Brian? wrote:
    So you believe the Proud Boys are not Fascists, is this correct?

    Absolutely. I see no evidence whatsoever that the proud boys as a group are fascists.
    Brian? wrote:
    Who are fascists in your opinion?

    The KKK, white supremacists etc.

    I am not sure what the Proud Boys are. They seem like numpties to me, but they do have some pretty right wing ideas.

    Etc. ? You don't want to be any more specific?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #4303
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Brian? wrote: »
    What’s pathetic is continually trying to twist my words in order to score some points.

    “Mighty pathetic” is an oxymoron by the way. I can never forgive that.
    Twist your words? That you support Antifa because of their so-called 'stated aim?' Perhaps it would be best to remember... 'Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.'

    I don't support Antifa in any meaningful way at all. I don't march with them, I don't promote them and I am not a member of any group associated with them. So how exactly am I supporting them?

    I characterize people by both actions and words. It's not very difficult.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #4304
    Ironicname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    Brian? wrote:
    Etc. ? You don't want to be any more specific?

    I gave you two examples. How many would you like?


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    #4305
    Ironicname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    Brian? wrote:
    I am not sure what the Proud Boys are. They seem like numpties to me, but they do have some pretty right wing ideas.

    Being right wing or having right wing ideas isn't the same as being a fascist.


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    #4306
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    notobtuse wrote: »
    You're correct. In this video I think there was one person in the opening clip who wasn't mindless. :pac:
    ...

    That's an Anti-Pedophile apologist attack/protest.
    If I put up a video of a lad with a Swastika does that mean all Republican's are Nazis?
    Michigan GOP Senate ad features a swastika for some reason

    John James — the Republican running against Democrat Debbie Stabenow for Michigan's Senate seat in November — released a 30-second TV spot earlier this month. Titled "Ready to Serve," it features shots of blighted buildings, embattled military vets, failing schools — and, for some reason, a prominent shot of a Nazi swastika in the foreground.
    https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/archives/2018/10/15/michigan-gop-senate-ad-features-a-swastika-for-some-reason


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    #4307
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ironicname wrote: »
    I gave you two examples. How many would you like?

    You gave me one example, the KKK, and a generalised "White Supremacists". Most white supremacists hide behind other names there days, like White Nationalists.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Options
    #4308
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ironicname wrote: »
    Being right wing or having right wing ideas isn't the same as being a fascist.

    I know. Which is why I said what I did.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Options
    #4309
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Brian? wrote: »
    I don't support Antifa in any meaningful way at all. I don't march with them, I don't promote them and I am not a member of any group associated with them. So how exactly am I supporting them?

    I characterize people by both actions and words. It's not very difficult.
    Actions always prove why words mean nothing.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • Options
    #4310
    Ironicname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    Brian? wrote:
    You gave me one example, the KKK, and a generalised "White Supremacists". Most white supremacists hide behind other names there days, like White Nationalists.

    Ok. How many would you like then? The KKK are a good example I think. An example of who I don't think is fascist is the democratically elected president of America.


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    #4311
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Actions always prove why words mean nothing.

    It must be great to live in such a simple world.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #4312
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,603 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Ironicname wrote: »
    Ok. How many would you like then? The KKK are a good example I think. An example of who I don't think is fascist is the democratically elected president of America.

    Is the implication here meant to be that it’s impossible to be fascist if you were elected by the EC?


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    #4313
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ironicname wrote: »
    Ok. How many would you like then? The KKK are a good example I think. An example of who I don't think is fascist is the democratically elected president of America.

    You don’t think he dog whistles to groups like the KKK?

    How about white nationalists? White lives matter?

    Which groups in Charlottesville weren’t fascists?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #4314
    Ironicname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    Overheal wrote:
    Is the implication here meant to be that it’s impossible to be fascist if you were elected by the EC?
    No. The implication was that I don't think trump is a fascist.
    Brian? wrote:
    You don’t think he dog whistles to groups like the KKK?

    No.


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    #4315
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ironicname wrote: »
    No. The implication was that I don't think trump is a fascist.



    No.

    There we’ll have to disagree. I don’t think Trump is a fascist, he’s a populist. But he does love to foment racial tension and regularly dog whistles to far right groups.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #4316
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,603 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    He could have fooled me when he “hereby ordered” US businesses to leave China.

    “ Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky (national economic self-sufficiency) through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[11]”


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    #4317
    Ironicname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    Overheal wrote:
    He could have fooled me when he “hereby ordered†US businesses to leave China.

    I'm sure he could have.


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    #4318
    Kimsang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭Kimsang


    Brian? wrote: »

    The question above is not a “straight question”. It presupposes that Antifa violently oppose Trump supporters. With a heavy implication this is a common occurrence. I have yet to see sufficient evidence for this.
    .

    I'll ask you one straight question, not loaded at all. Its the root of the issue for me and I believe other people.

    You have admitted people were arrested that were Antifa for violently attacking Ngo.
    Brian? wrote: »
    Police have arrested 3 people for the assault on Ngo, so far. With an active investigation ongoing.
    You have also said you are resolutely anti-violence.
    Brian? wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is justified in attacking anyone physically, ever. I'm a bit strange that way though.
    Violence is wrong.
    I don't defend Antifa's methods in any way shape or form.
    My question is this: Do you condemn Antifa?
    If not, why not?


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    #4319
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Overheal wrote: »
    Is the implication here meant to be that it’s impossible to be fascist if you were elected by the EC?

    Every President since 1787 has been elected by the Electoral College. Using this against Trump shows your utter ignorance to how the US electoral system works.


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    #4320
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,603 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Every President since 1787 has been elected by the Electoral College. Using this against Trump shows your utter ignorance to how the US electoral system works.

    I did no such thing. There you go off being a flagrant liar again. I asked if the implication was if someone can’t be fascist by virtue of how the are installed. You twisted that into your vile misinformation and lying nonsense.


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    #4321
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Overheal wrote: »
    I did no such thing. There you go off being a flagrant liar again. I asked if the implication was if someone can’t be fascist by virtue of how the are installed. You twisted that into your vile misinformation and lying nonsense.

    Takes one to know one.


This discussion has been closed.
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