Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

Overheal

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Takes one to know one.

OoooOooooohhh

Brian?

Kimsang wrote: »

I'll ask you one straight question, not loaded at all. Its the root of the issue for me and I believe other people.

You have admitted people were arrested that were Antifa for violently attacking Ngo.

You have also said you are resolutely anti-violence.

My question is this: Do you condemn Antifa?
If not, why not?

I’ve explained already, several times. This isn’t a straight question, because Antifa are not a homogenous group. I condemn the people who attacked Mr. Ngo


Why is this so hard to understand? I’ve said it dozens of times now.

Kimsang

Brian? wrote: »

I’ve explained already, several times. This isn’t a straight question, because Antifa are not a homogenous group. I condemn the people who attacked Mr. Ngo

Why is this so hard to understand? I’ve said it dozens of times now.

Please bear with me, i'm trying to get at something that illuminate the discussion.

Would you also not condemn other non-homogenous groups such as Proud boys and let's say the National party, or the British National party?

Overheal

Kimsang wrote: »

Please bear with me, i'm trying to get at something that illuminate the discussion.

Would you also not condemn other non-homogenous groups such as Proud boys and let's say the National party, or the British National party?

do you condemn the tea party movement? Very similar boat to Antifa in disparity of organization, who got themselves involved in several violent incidents, then must the entire movement have been labeled terrorism?

Whatever you’re getting at get it on the table please, in case I’ve just completely misunderstood the angle you’re going for here.

Brian?

Kimsang wrote: »

Please bear with me, i'm trying to get at something that illuminate the discussion.

Really, I would prefer not to. Can you get to the point.

Would you also not condemn other non-homogenous groups such as Proud boys and let's say the National party, or the British National party?

What’s your point here?


Let me ask you clarifying questions:

If I do want to actually condemn Antifa, not just say I condemn the on an Internet forum. Where do I send my letter of objection? Who exactly to I raise the issue with? There is no leader or ruling council to take up my grievances with, should I book large ballroom and have them all in? Or are there certain key figures I should invite, if so who are they?

Do you see my point?

James Brown

Kimsang wrote: »

Please bear with me, i'm trying to get at something that illuminate the discussion.

Would you also not condemn other non-homogenous groups such as Proud boys and let's say the National party, or the British National party?

They are actual groups with members and leadership, combined they'd be a part of a movement, but they are defined individual groups.

Kimsang

Brian? wrote: »

Really, I would prefer not to. Can you get to the point.
What’s your point here?

Let me ask you clarifying questions:

If I do want to actually condemn Antifa, not just say I condemn the on an Internet forum. Where do I send my letter of objection? Who exactly to I raise the issue with? There is no leader or ruling council to take up my grievances with, should I book large ballroom and have them all in? Or are there certain key figures I should invite, if so who are they?

Do you see my point?

Yes I see your point; your condemnation is for me, because I am curious based on things you've previously said.

When violence occurs in a group such as Antifa, other members within that group are usually quick to call it out and denounce it.

Just look at the BNP or the Proud Boys.

But when Antifa does it, none of their members or supporters denounce Antifa. Suddenly they are not a homogenous group. That same defence would not work for BNP and rightfully so.

Overheal

It doesn’t work for BNP and the Proud Boys because they are legit organizations. Fck, Proud Boys have a gd uniform and dress code. There isn’t a “Proud Boys” ideological movement.

Brian?

Kimsang wrote: »

Yes I see your point; your condemnation is for me, because I am curious based on things you've previously said.

When violence occurs in a group such as Antifa, other members within that group are usually quick to call it out and denounce it.

Just look at the BNP or the Proud Boys.

But when Antifa does it, none of their members or supporters denounce Antifa. Suddenly they are not a homogenous group. That same defence would not work for BNP and rightfully so.

I’m lost. The BNP and Proud Boys are Nona Fide groups, they have hierarchies, leaders, rules and even a uniform.

Antifa don’t.

Overheal

Unfortunately anarchy just isn’t a group - kinda by its nature.

Now when it gets organized and starts calling itself eg the Weathermen or openly declares war on the State they will have reached well into that empass.

I keep referencing their example because it seems to so perfectly encapsulate the distinction between terrorism and ideology when you compare and contrast Antifa with WUO - the Antifa would be more akin to the SDS movement.

https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/weather-underground-bombings

Kimsang

Brian? wrote: »

I’m lost. The BNP and Proud Boys are Nona Fide groups, they have hierarchies, leaders, rules and even a uniform.

Antifa don’t.

I would accept your defence that they were not a homogenous group, if antifa members and their supporters openly denounced the violence against people like Ngo, but they don't.

They continual lack of denouncement only fuels their support of violence such as this.

How about the EDL? It could be much more described like a network like Antifa. When they commit violence, would you say it is a homogenous group so you don't condemn them? They are only in favour of defence.. its in the name :pac:

James Brown

Kimsang wrote: »

I would accept your defence that they were not a homogenous group, if antifa members and their supporters openly denounced the violence against people like Ngo, but they don't.

They continual lack of denouncement only fuels their support of violence such as this.

How about the EDL? It could be much more described like a network like Antifa. When they commit violence, would you say it is a homogenous group so you don't condemn them? They are only in favour of defence.. its in the name :pac:

See one is a hate movement the other anti-hate, that's the big difference IMO, although it does not excuse violence. Any antifa committing violence is just giving bigots like Trump and the Proud Boys fuel.

Overheal

Several posters on the thread, DNC POTUS hopefuls, left wing CNN Anchors, etc. have condemned the Andy Ngo attack, and I feel with some light sleuthing we would uncover several Antifa-sympathetic groups that do the same. I guess what I’m asking is what degree of condemnation is necessary for it to ‘count’ and who has to be the one to deliver the message?

notobtuse

If I claim I'm a stable genius, does that make me a stable genius?

Kimsang

Overheal wrote: »

Several posters on the thread, DNC POTUS hopefuls, left wing CNN Anchors, etc. have condemned the Andy Ngo attack, and I feel with some light sleuthing we would uncover several Antifa-sympathetic groups that do the same. I guess what I’m asking is what degree of condemnation is necessary for it to ‘count’ and who has to be the one to deliver the message?

I would be happy if they put up on the the rose city antifa website that they condemn the violence committed against Ngo, and hope that no further antifa members would commit violence like this.


This page does not exist. They need themselves to denounce it. Some leader from Antifa telling their members not to commit further violence, publicly.
You understand why this doesn't exist? Because they condone the actions that were commited that day against Ngo.

I appreciate all the people on the left, and right, who call out these horrible acts of violence for what they are. For too long there has been too many double standards.

Ironicname

Matt Barrett wrote:

See one is a hate movement the other anti-hate, that's the big difference IMO, although it does not excuse violence. Any antifa committing violence is just giving bigots like Trump and the Proud Boys fuel.

Bigots. People who aren't tolerant to others beliefs. Look in the mirror.

Kimsang

I hope you guys see why its so important for an organization, even one as loosely knitted as Antifa, denounces the violence against Andy Ngo.

Its the same reason it was important that Muslims condemn the attacks on Charlie Hebdo.

To stop further violence from happening.

James Brown

Ironicname wrote: »

Bigots. People who aren't tolerant to others beliefs. Look in the mirror.

That's your input, go on the attack?
I'm not tolerant of any racists or the newly acceptable Alt Right, no.

Kimsang wrote: »

I hope you guys see why its so important for an organization, even one as loosely knitted as Antifa, denounces the violence against Andy Ngo.

Its the same reason it was important that Muslims condemn the attacks on Charlie Hebdo.

To stop further violence from happening.

Did you apologise for the shootings in El Passo or the Christchurch killings?

martingriff

Kimsang wrote: »

I hope you guys see why its so important for an organization, even one as loosely knitted as Antifa, denounces the violence against Andy Ngo.

Its the same reason it was important that Muslims condemn the attacks on Charlie Hebdo.

To stop further violence from happening.

It will not thugs will be thugs and anyone can use violence and say it for x or y does not mean that everyone who is associated with people like them (eg. muslims) have to public condemn straight away or be tarnished with been a sympathizers. Did all Irish people rush out a publicaly declare what the IRA did was wrong with a bombing

Brian?

Kimsang wrote: »

I would accept your defence that they were not a homogenous group, if antifa members and their supporters openly denounced the violence against people like Ngo, but they don't.

It’s not a matter of you accepting it. It’s a matter of fact, not belief.

They continual lack of denouncement only fuels their support of violence such as this.

Maybe that’s also because they aren’t a coherent group. Who’s going to come out and denounce someone?

How about the EDL? It could be much more described like a network like Antifa. When they commit violence, would you say it is a homogenous group so you don't condemn them? They are only in favour of defence.. its in the name :pac:

Don’t the EDL have a single leader?

Ironicname

Matt Barrett wrote:

That's your input, go on the attack? I'm not tolerant of any racists or the newly acceptable Alt Right, no.

It wasn't an attack. I just found it funny that you used the word bigot while clearly being one yourself.

Overheal

Kimsang wrote: »

I hope you guys see why its so important for an organization, even one as loosely knitted as Antifa, denounces the violence against Andy Ngo.

Its the same reason it was important that Muslims condemn the attacks on Charlie Hebdo.

To stop further violence from happening.

The Muslim Pope did?

notobtuse

Kimsang wrote: »

Recent article(14 hours) from Vox very strange indeed insinuating the left must arm themselves, because of the rise of the far right.




Authored by Kim Kelly(who also has contributions for NYT/Guardian/WaPo)

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2019/7/1/18744204/guns-gun-control-anarchism

And people carp on Andy Ngo?

Overheal

notobtuse wrote: »

And people carp on Andy Ngo?

Sorry what dotted line are you drawing there

20Cent

Former veteran went undercover in "patriot prayer" his video will be used in the court case against them Andy Ngo should be sweating.

https://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2019/08/26/27039560/undercover-in-patriot-prayer-insights-from-a-vancouver-democrat-whos-been-working-against-the-far-right-group-from-the-inside

Overheal

20Cent wrote: »

Former veteran went undercover in "patriot prayer" his video will be used in the court case against them Andy Ngo should be sweating.

https://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2019/08/26/27039560/undercover-in-patriot-prayer-insights-from-a-vancouver-democrat-whos-been-working-against-the-far-right-group-from-the-inside

Now there’s a Patriot.

20Cent

Overheal wrote: »

Now there’s a Patriot.

He won't have to pray either lol
All coming out now.


https://twitter.com/_BvdM/status/1165539713190649856?s=19

notobtuse

I'm sure the regular crowd will be screaming about doctored videos. NOT!!!!

Regardless, if the ugly reports are true about the Proud Boys then they should be taken to task... JUST LIKE ANTIFA.

Overheal

notobtuse wrote: »

I'm sure the regular crowd will be screaming about doctored videos. NOT!!!!

Regardless, if the ugly reports are true about the Proud Boys then they should be taken to task... JUST LIKE ANTIFA.

This wasn’t the proud boys at all?

As for video mentioned it’s being admitted as legal evidence, so let the court sort it out.

Danzy

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's not all mindless people looking for a fight. I'd image there are some anti fascists in their number.

Statistically probable.