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Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

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    #6062
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Brian? wrote: »
    What is Liberalism? Classic Liberalism is a laissez faire approach to all things, economics and social issues. Minimal market regulation.


    Neo liberalism is pretty much the same economically.

    Neoliberalism pretty much means a liberal, laissez-faire attitude to globalisation, markets, and immigration. Some of the biggest cheerleaders on the left for the past number of decades were neoliberals. Take Clinton and Obama as an example, or Eammon Ryan, or Tony Blair, or Joan Burton.
    Heck, the EU is pretty much neo-liberal.
    Liberals have never been on the left. You know that.


    Really? OK, well if liberals are not on the left, then what does the left comprise of.

    Take for example the leader of the Irish Labour party Brendan Howlin, Barak Obama and, in the UK, Tony Blair.

    They would be considered on the 'left' in the broad sphere of things, in that they believe in general liberal values. But if they are not on the left, what are they?

    Indeed who is on the left then? Are we redefining the left as those that believe in Corbynism only, ala Paul Murphy type Socialism, that everyone else to the right is right-wing?


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    #6063
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Brian? wrote: »
    Of course I agree. I'd struggle to find an example on here of someone painting the right as a homogenous group the way the left has been.

    Do you have 20cent on ignore as he implies it very often?


  • Options
    #6064
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    markodaly wrote: »
    Do you have 20cent on ignore as he implies it very often?

    I’m not going to speak for him/her. But I don’t think that’s what they are implying. There is an over tolerance in the moderate right for the lunatic fringes. Plenty of posters here do it, excusing the likes of the Proud Boys while describing Antifa as terrorists.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #6065
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    markodaly wrote: »
    Neoliberalism pretty much means a liberal, laissez-faire attitude to globalisation, markets, and immigration. Some of the biggest cheerleaders on the left for the past number of decades were neoliberals. Take Clinton and Obama as an example, or Eammon Ryan, or Tony Blair, or Joan Burton.
    Heck, the EU is pretty much neo-liberal.

    Which is also what classical liberalism means. It’s not complicated. People spend way too much time on the social issues.
    Really? OK, well if liberals are not on the left, then what does the left comprise of.

    Take for example the leader of the Irish Labour party Brendan Howlin, Barak Obama and, in the UK, Tony Blair.

    They would be considered on the 'left' in the broad sphere of things, in that they believe in general liberal values. But if they are not on the left, what are they?

    Indeed who is on the left then? Are we redefining the left as those that believe in Corbynism only, ala Paul Murphy type Socialism, that everyone else to the right is right-wing?

    Neither Barack Obama or Tony Blair were left wing. They were far too corporate.

    It’s not just left/right, there’s the middle too. Blair and Obama would be pretty centrist.


    The more I type the more difficult it is to describe. My point is though: everyone to the left of conservatives aren’t one group.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #6066
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,980 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Given how aggressive Obama's foreign policy was and how little he did when the Democrats had both houses along with how Tony Blair was a co-instigator of the Iraq war who bragged about how much he's restricted trade unions, I find it hard to believe that either of these two men were left wing

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #6067
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    I think you are confusing "left-wing" with "good"
    Many corporations and war mongers claim to be leftleaning or US democrats.


    This thread isn't much about Antifa anymore :D


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    #6068
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Brian? wrote: »
    I’m not going to speak for him/her. But I don’t think that’s what they are implying. There is an over tolerance in the moderate right for the lunatic fringes. Plenty of posters here do it, excusing the likes of the Proud Boys while describing Antifa as terrorists.

    First of all, come off it. 20cent is exactly the type of poster that paints that you describe in that other post of yours.

    Secondly, the bit I bolded. Can you post me an example of this?


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    #6069
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Given how aggressive Obama's foreign policy was and how little he did when the Democrats had both houses along with how Tony Blair was a co-instigator of the Iraq war who bragged about how much he's restricted trade unions, I find it hard to believe that either of these two men were left wing

    But what is left wing so?

    They are politicians elected on a left-wing platform, representing a left-wing party by the left-wing and center of the electorate.

    It seems to be the 'left-wing' is being redefined as someone who is either Jesus or Jeremy Corbyn.

    A very simple example, who is your mind is the most successful left-wing politician of the past 20 years?


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    #6070
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Sand wrote: »
    FTA69 is effectively a neoliberal. At it's heart, neoliberalism is about competion being an absolute good. When FTA69 condemns the indigenous English for dismissing scab labour as "those f*cking Indians" he is complying with the neoliberal paradigm. It is for the indigenous English to compete with those Indians, to prove their fitness to survive as the working class of the UK against immigrants from the rest of the world. If they cant, then FTA69 acknowledges that they deserve to fail.

    He might excuse this by pretending they are fascist, the far-right or members of the Nazi party but ultimately he views them as losers in the competition with third world labour. If Achmed who cant speak English can thrive in the UK, why can't you? The UK ceases to be a nation, and instead becomes a crucible, burning away the inefficient and incompetent. That is the message traditional social democratic parties in Europe have for indigenous people - compete with third world labour tooth and claw or die. Its no different to the message parties of the 'right' have.

    This is why indigenous people are forced to turn to 'populism'.

    Yeah mate I’m such a neo-liberal I believe in a planned economy where capital and labour are managed, industry is nationalised and private ownership of assets and land is abolished. Very neo-liberal alright. It’s gas really Sand, I remember on this forum years ago you used to excoriate me for being a Republican and were some typical free market Blueshirt type and now you seem to have gone down some mad alt-lite rabbit hole.

    To answer a few of your points:
    Union membership in the UK has declined for a multitude of reasons, you pinning in it on immigration is simplistic b*llocks. There has been mass deindustrialisation, deliberately encouraged by Thatcher and her successors, a massive increase in precarity and transient service work and a massive establishment assault on organised labour which now faces the harshest labour laws in Europe.

    “Scab labour” does not refer to migrants, a scab is someone who is anti-union in an organised workplace or someone who crosses a picket. If you’re going to adopt union terminology it might be an idea to do a bit of research. The guy I was referring to would not join his Indian colleagues in a union (the foreigners who were fighting for better pay and conditions) and instead placed himself in the boss’s camp. That boss and similar bosses are the ones who pay his sh*t wages by the way, not some poor Indian lad also on a poverty wage. What yourself and others seem incapable of realising is that migrants are also capable of organising and fighting for better, I know because I’ve done it.

    Does migration have an effect on wages? Yes of course it does. Is that the biggest factor of depressed wages? No, that would be the collapse of sectoral collective bargaining which was brought about by a capitalist establishment that seeks to divide the working class along any and all lines. No borders and all that stuff is b*llocks. But it’s not migrants who flogged off the council houses, privatised the NHS and who set the minimum wage.

    Lastly your position on the Tommy Robinson types is naive crap; believe it or not there is a far-right constituency in this country and I know because I’ve seen them and interacted with them. You’re talking about a former slave-trading imperial country built on the notion of superiority which was pushed from the top down by an elite. If you think there isn’t a hardcore of racist sh*ts in the UK (not exclusively working class by the way), you’re coding yourself.


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    #6071
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    markodaly wrote: »
    But what is left wing so?

    They are politicians elected on a left-wing platform, representing a left-wing party by the left-wing and center of the electorate.

    It seems to be the 'left-wing' is being redefined as someone who is either Jesus or Jeremy Corbyn.

    A very simple example, who is your mind is the most successful left-wing politician of the past 20 years?

    Fidel Castro.


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    #6072
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,980 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    markodaly wrote: »
    But what is left wing so?

    They are politicians elected on a left-wing platform, representing a left-wing party by the left-wing and center of the electorate.

    It seems to be the 'left-wing' is being redefined as someone who is either Jesus or Jeremy Corbyn.

    A very simple example, who is your mind is the most successful left-wing politician of the past 20 years?

    In one sentence, pro-climate change action, pro-social liberalism and pro-state intervention to address issues such as education, healthcare and income inequality accompanied by a belief in progressive taxation on the wealthy.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #6073
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Fidel Castro.

    A guy who set up labor camps to lock up the Gays?
    Very left-wing alright.


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    #6074
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    In one sentence, pro-climate change action, pro-social liberalism and pro-state intervention to address issues such as education, healthcare and income inequality accompanied by a belief in progressive taxation on the wealthy.

    If you asked Tony Blair or Barack Obama that, they will steadfastly say, that those are the issues they care about the most. The fallacy of no true Scotsman seems to ring loud here.

    You didn't answer my last question though.


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    #6075
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Yeah mate I’m such a neo-liberal I believe in a planned economy where capital and labour are managed, industry is nationalised and private ownership of assets and land is abolished.

    In fairness though, anytime a planned and state-controlled economy was implemented, it has been a disaster. What you are describing is something out of the 1930's Russia, 1950's China or the 1960's Cuba. Privatising all land and assets? Being honest, but you do see why the vast majority of people want no part to play in that?
    Or do you believe, this time it will be different if implemented?

    Does migration have an effect on wages? Yes of course it does. Is that the biggest factor of depressed wages? No, that would be the collapse of sectoral collective bargaining which was brought about by a capitalist establishment that seeks to divide the working class along any and all lines. No borders and all that stuff is b*llocks. But it’s not migrants who flogged off the council houses, privatised the NHS and who set the minimum wage.

    Again, in fairness, you are speaking like someone from a Student Union.
    The biggest factor in depressing wages is Globalisation and automation, never mind the rise of female participation in the workforce since the 1970's. This capitalist class conspiracy stuff is ****.


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    #6076
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,980 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    markodaly wrote: »
    If you asked Tony Blair or Barack Obama that, they will steadfastly say, that those are the issues they care about the most. The fallacy of no true Scotsman seems to ring loud here.

    You didn't answer my last question though.

    I'd say that their actions would serve as a much better proxy.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Options
    #6077
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I'd say that their actions would serve as a much better proxy.

    A proxy for who exactly? The men in black suits who run the NWO?


  • Options
    #6078
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,980 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    markodaly wrote: »
    A proxy for who exactly? The men in black suits who run the NWO?

    Why are you posting this absurd manner? I suggest you look up the word proxy.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #6079
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    markodaly wrote: »
    A guy who set up labor camps to lock up the Gays?
    Very left-wing alright.

    Which was completely wrong. It doesn't make his economic policies any less left wing.

    The nuance of the entire left/right paradigm seems to escape you.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #6080
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    markodaly wrote: »
    First of all, come off it. 20cent is exactly the type of poster that paints that you describe in that other post of yours.

    Secondly, the bit I bolded. Can you post me an example of this?

    Firstly, if you want to debate a posters opinions then debate the poster. I'm not a proxy for 20cent.

    Secondly, it's a long thread. I don't have time to go back through the whole thing. There were multiple posters defending the Proud Boys earlier in the thread. Who may not actually have been multiple posters but a single re reg.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #6081
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    markodaly wrote: »
    First of all, come off it. 20cent is exactly the type of poster that paints that you describe in that other post of yours.

    Secondly, the bit I bolded. Can you post me an example of this?

    There are lots of different people on the right never implied they are all far right. There is definitely a lack of self regulation or criticism though. Proper right wingers should be calling out issues with their own side. They also have a high tolerance for grifters which I don't see with the left.


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    #6082
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Apparently Anifa is now waging war on Tara LaRosa, a MMA fighter who took down an anti-Trump protester who initiated a fight, and held her waiting for police.

    https://twitter.com/TaraLaRosa/status/1194466626327891969?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxbusiness.com%2Fsports%2Fmma-fighter-anti-trump-protester-antifa-target

    The violent protester who initiated the fight (a self-described professor) then bit LaRosa in the chest, causing an open wound.

    Scum is too kind a word for Antifa.

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/sports/mma-fighter-anti-trump-protester-antifa-target

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • Options
    #6083
    Marcos
    Registered Users Posts: 501 ✭✭✭Marcos


    Look, why are you surprised? Didn't they try and attack that Daryl Davis the guy that spoke to and befriended 200 KKK members and persuaded them to leave that organisation?

    Antifa blockaded a conference he was speaking at in Philadelphia and when he invited them in to speak to them, they refused and called him a White Supremacist. :eek:

    When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.

    Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.



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    #6084
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Apparently Anifa is now waging war on Tara LaRosa, a MMA fighter who took down an anti-Trump protester who initiated a fight, and held her waiting for police.

    https://twitter.com/TaraLaRosa/status/1194466626327891969?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxbusiness.com%2Fsports%2Fmma-fighter-anti-trump-protester-antifa-target

    The violent protester who initiated the fight (a self-described professor) then bit LaRosa in the chest, causing an open wound.

    Scum is too kind a word for Antifa.

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/sports/mma-fighter-anti-trump-protester-antifa-target

    That's waging war?

    Saw a video of it, the protester didn't start it but fake news gets clicks.


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    #6085
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    20Cent wrote: »
    That's waging war?

    Saw a video of it, the protester didn't start it but fake news gets clicks.
    I'm sure you'll be providing us with that unedited video showing the protester didn't start the fight. :rolleyes:

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #6086
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I'm sure you'll be providing us with that unedited video showing the protester didn't start the fight. :rolleyes:

    someone tries to stick a flag in her eye and then punches her.
    Larossa holding her down, she says she can't breath Larossa says she doesn't care.

    Another grifter getting on the alt right gravy train.


    https://twitter.com/defendpdx/status/1193972569688412160


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    #6087
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I'm sure you'll be providing us with that unedited video showing the protester didn't start the fight. :rolleyes:

    What's wrong with showing an unedited video that shows the protester didn't start the fight?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #6088
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    20Cent wrote: »
    someone tries to stick a flag in her eye and then punches her.
    Larossa holding her down, she says she can't breath Larossa says she doesn't care.

    Another grifter getting on the alt right gravy train.


    https://twitter.com/defendpdx/status/1193972569688412160

    I'm blocked from seeing the video unless I sign up. Got another source?

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • Options
    #6089
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I'm blocked from seeing the video unless I sign up. Got another source?

    So you posted a story without checking it out first. A story which is false by Fox news using Andy Ngo as a source.

    I'd be annoyed at those trying to manipulate me if I were you.


  • Options
    #6090
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    20Cent wrote: »
    So you posted a story without checking it out first. A story which is false by Fox news using Andy Ngo as a source.

    I'd be annoyed at those trying to manipulate me if I were you.
    I got it from several reliable news sources. No annoyance whatsoever.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #6091
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,566 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I'm blocked from seeing the video unless I sign up. Got another source?

    Man up and make an account.

    Woman is standing in her own space with hands closed together. Woman grabs flag being used to molest her in the eye, gets punched in the face.


This discussion has been closed.
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