Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

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Well that makes sense. If you think anyone that is right wing is a Nazi, then of course you support antifa.

It's been explained multiple times that most right wing advocates also denounce Naziism, yet you still peddle the myth that anyone who opposes the disgusting antifa mob are Nazis.

Again, for clarity, I am in no way saying that anyone who has a left wing mentality is a bad person. I just think that anyone who would support antifa, and their actions, are.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that makes sense. If you think anyone that is right wing is a Nazi, then of course you support antifa.

It's been explained multiple times that most right wing advocates also denounce Naziism, yet you still peddle the myth that anyone who opposes the disgusting antifa mob are Nazis.

Again, for clarity, I am in no way saying that anyone who has a left wing mentality is a bad person. I just think that anyone who would support antifa, and their actions, are.

you did notice the nazi flag in the picture,right? i dont remember any reports of anybody at the protest denouncing it. not to mention those with placards with nazi slogans. these are part of the mainstream right.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

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So "right wingers" use the nazi flag and the American flag?

But you could not make the inference: all people that use the American flag are right wingers.

You could make the inference anyone who uses the Antifa flag supports Antifa.

Do you see the difference?

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you did notice the nazi flag in the picture,right? i dont remember any reports of anybody at the protest denouncing it. not to mention those with placards with nazi slogans. these are part of the mainstream right.

There was a Nazi flag in the picture. And regardless of what way that person was politically leaning (pretty much guarantee that he was right) I disavow him.

I don't think he should be arrested or restricted from waving a Nazi flag though. I find it odious and disgusting. But I don't think it should be illegal or banned.

Tell me what your parameters are for acceptable and non acceptable and what you feel like you should be allowed censor.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you did notice the nazi flag in the picture,right? i dont remember any reports of anybody at the protest denouncing it. not to mention those with placards with nazi slogans. these are part of the mainstream right.

There was a Nazi flag in the picture. And regardless of what way that person was politically leaning (pretty much guarantee that he was on the right) I disavow him.

I don't think he should be arrested or restricted from waving a Nazi flag though. I find it odious and disgusting. But I don't think it should be illegal or banned.

Tell me what your parameters are for acceptable and non acceptable and what you feel like you should be allowed censor.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

There was a Nazi flag in the picture. And regardless of what way that person was politically leaning (pretty much guarantee that he was on the right) I disavow him.

I don't think he should be arrested or restricted from waving a Nazi flag though. I find it odious and disgusting. But I don't think it should be illegal or banned.

Tell me what your parameters are for acceptable and non acceptable and what you feel like you should be allowed censor.

you seem unable to follow a train of thought. my post was in response to this:

It's been explained multiple times that most right wing advocates also denounce Naziism

I even used the word denounce to make it easier for you to make the connection.
yet somehow people seem to carry these nazi flags and placards with nazi slogans with impunity. it is almost as if the other people there have no issue with them and quite possibly support them.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you seem unable to follow a train of thought. my post was in response to this:



I even used the word denounce to make it easier for you to make the connection.
yet somehow people seem to carry these nazi flags and placards with nazi slogans with impunity. it is almost as if the other people there have no issue with them and quite possibly support them.

I can follow your train of thought. I just disagree with it.

They are allowed to wave a flag or use slogans and they should be allowed to.

I don't in any way agree with them. But I certainly don't think they should be punished for them.

I do still stand by my statement that most right wing people do not agree with Nazis and would denounce them. Declaring your disagreement with an ideology is different than banning it.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

I can follow your train of thought. I just disagree with it.

They are allowed to wave a flag or use slogans and they should be allowed to.

I don't in any way agree with them. But I certainly don't think they should be punished for them.

I do still stand by my statement that most right wing people do not agree with Nazis and would denounce them. Declaring your disagreement with an ideology is different than banning it.

i haven't mentioned punishment. and i dont see any disagreement with people carrying nazi flags and slogans at right-wing marches in the US coming from the other people marching.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i haven't mentioned punishment. and i dont see any disagreement with people carrying nazi flags and slogans at right-wing marches in the US coming from the other people marching.

Impunity implies punishment but ok.

It's hard to see disagreement in selected still images. Even still, perhaps people allowed the bigots to wave their flags because it was their right to do so.

I don't agree with any way with Gemma ODoherty, but I don't feel the need to bombard her with abuse or to correct every piece of **** that comes out of her mouth.

That doesn't mean I hold the same views.

Would I approach a swastika welding person on a demonstration I attended? Truthfully, probably not. I would avoid them like the plague but probably not confront them. As much as I disagree with their ideology, I can't tell them they have no right to display it. This doesn't mean I agree with it.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Impunity implies punishment but ok.

It's hard to see disagreement in selected still images. Even still, perhaps people allowed the bigots to wave their flags because it was their right to do so.

I don't agree with any way with Gemma ODoherty, but I don't feel the need to bombard her with abuse or to correct every piece of **** that comes out of her mouth.

That doesn't mean I hold the same views.

Would I approach a swastika welding person on a demonstration I attended? Truthfully, probably not. I would avoid them like the plague but probably not confront them. As much as I disagree with their ideology, I can't tell them they have no right to display it. This doesn't mean I agree with it.

it is not about their right to display. it is about you willing to share a protest with somebody with those views. there is no middle ground here.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I do still stand by my statement that most right wing people do not agree with Nazis and would denounce them.

My original point was that you are saying the above but at the same time saying anybody who identifies with Anti-Fa in any way are disgusting people. You cannot have it both ways.

2u2me wrote: »

But you could not make the inference: all people that use the American flag are right wingers.

Yeaaaah, because it was the American flag in that picture which is the focal point. :pac:

Deleted User wrote: »

As much as I disagree with their ideology, I can't tell them they have no right to display it. This doesn't mean I agree with it.

Refusing to condemn somebody marching along side you waving a nazi flag implies that you are condoning them waving it. If I found that my ideology was in line with some knuckle dragger who thought it was okay to wave a swastika, I'd take a long hard look at my ideology, to be honest.

By the way, in the vast majority of Europe it is illegal to display such items and people can, and do, get arrested for it (rightly so, in my opinion). It isn't strictly illegal in Ireland, as far as I know, but could fall under incitement of hatred which IS strictly banned. I know what you're saying, banning stuff and censorship is not the way to go, in the vast majority of cases. But allowing hate groups to assemble and spread their nonsense should not be tolerated.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it is not about their right to display. it is about you willing to share a protest with somebody with those views. there is no middle ground here.

I disagree and frankly that is preposterous.

Are you suggesting that anyone who protests should ensure that everyone else aligns identically with their beliefs?

A Nazi flag welding bigot turned up to a rally. Just because people didn't stop him from being a bigot, makes them somehow complicit and sharing a protest?

No middle ground? That's exactly where you are going wrong. I can be anti fascism and still abhor antifa. I can allow idiots with objectionable flags or slogans to agree with some of my beliefs without shutting them down.

There is a middle ground. You just don't want to see it. The definition of an us Vs them mentality which is poisoning conversation

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

I disagree and frankly that is preposterous.

Are you suggesting that anyone who protests should ensure that everyone else aligns identically with their beliefs?

A Nazi flag welding bigot turned up to a rally. Just because people didn't stop him from being a bigot, makes them somehow complicit and sharing a protest?

No middle ground? That's exactly where you are going wrong. I can be anti fascism and still abhor antifa. I can allow idiots with objectionable flags or slogans to agree with some of my beliefs without shutting them down.

There is a middle ground. You just don't want to see it. The definition of an us Vs them mentality which is poisoning conversation

it wasnt just one of them. and there is no middle ground with fascism.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Refusing to condemn somebody marching along side you waving a nazi flag implies that you are condoning them waving it. If I found that my ideology was in line with some knuckle dragger who thought it was okay to wave a swastika, I'd take a long hard look at my ideology, to be honest.

By the way, in the vast majority of Europe it is illegal to display such items and people can, and do, get arrested for it (rightly so, in my opinion). It isn't strictly illegal in Ireland, as far as I know, but could fall under incitement of hatred which IS strictly banned. I know what you're saying, banning stuff and censorship is not the way to go, in the vast majority of cases. But allowing hate groups to assemble and spread their nonsense should not be tolerated.

Should antifa be banned then? What is acceptable hate in your opinion?

Should people who disagree with transgender women being allowed in women only spaces be not tolerated?

What about people who disagree or are uncomfortable with abortion on demand? Should they be tolerated?

Who defines what hate is?

Should people who body shame be tolerated? What about when it's to insult people you don't like? Insulting Katie Hopkins as hatchet faced or saying trump is a big orange blob is ok to say publicly but when it's against anyone "normal" it's terrible.

So back to your point. Hate groups not allowed to assemble? Fair enough, define what a hate group is in clear and definitive manner. A man turning up waving a nazi flag doesn't turn a protest into a Nazi protest. It is a protest that a Nazi attended.

Jimmy Saville ran the London marathon. It wasn't a paedophile marathon.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it wasnt just one of them. and there is no middle ground with fascism.

Obviously not. You are either a fascist or not. It's your reaction to fascism and your behaviour towards them that has a middle ground.

I don't agree with the "punch a Nazi" idea. Purely because the definition of Nazi seems to be interchangeable. I prefer to allow people tell me or show me their beliefs and then decide if I want them in my life. I don't think it's acceptable to punch people because I disagree with them politically or ideologically.

And yes, there may have been a few like minded people at that march. Is it a Nazi rally now in your opinion?

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Obviously not. You are either a fascist or not. It's your reaction to fascism and your behaviour towards them that has a middle ground.

I don't agree with the "punch a Nazi" idea. Purely because the definition of Nazi seems to be interchangeable. I prefer to allow people tell me or show me their beliefs and then decide if I want them in my life. I don't think it's acceptable to punch people because I disagree with them politically or ideologically.

And yes, there may have been a few like minded people at that march. Is it a Nazi rally now in your opinion?

there is no middle ground with the reaction to them either. there is no debate with them. and if you are at a march that nazis think matches their beliefs then you need to take a long hard luck at yourself and have the balls to tell them to **** off home.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there is no middle ground with the reaction to them either. there is no debate with them. and if you are at a march that nazis think matches their beliefs then you need to take a long hard luck at yourself and have the balls to tell them to **** off home.

If a Nazi liked a rib eye steak, would you become a vegetarian?

I can share beliefs with people who hold other beliefs which I don't agree with.

Have the balls to tell them to **** off home? It doesn't take balls to do that. I absolutely would intervene if I saw someone being racially abused or abused for holding a different opinion, but I have no right to tell anyone they can't have or promote an opinion.

It would be akin to me verbally abusing people wearing repeal jumpers before abortion was made legal. (And before your obvious retort of "you are comparing Nazis to women who feel the need to abort a fetus", I am not. I am simply highlighting that I do not get to dictate anyone's opinions to them and am not complicit to any action carried out by them)

biko

As soon as you think it's ok to exert violence on another human then you're already a danger to other people.

"I wanna punch someone, I'm so angry at things!"
"Punching nazis are ok!"
"There are no actual nazis here"
"But, if someone don't agree with me/us then they are a nazi!"
"Yay, I get to punch people!"

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

If a Nazi liked a rib eye steak, would you become a vegetarian?

I can share beliefs with people who hold other beliefs which I don't agree with.

Have the balls to tell them to **** off home? It doesn't take balls to do that. I absolutely would intervene if I saw someone being racially abused or abused for holding a different opinion, but I have no right to tell anyone they can't have or promote an opinion.

It would be akin to me verbally abusing people wearing repeal jumpers before abortion was made legal. (And before your obvious retort of "you are comparing Nazis to women who feel the need to abort a fetus", I am not. I am simply highlighting that I do not get to dictate anyone's opinions to them and am not complicit to any action carried out by them)

if you march next to somebody carrying a nazi flag or a placard with nazi slogans you are complicit. you are giving them legitimacy.

ohnonotgmail

biko wrote: »

As soon as you think it's ok to exert violence on another human then you're already a danger to other people.

"I wanna punch someone, I'm so angry at things!"
"Punching nazis are ok!"
"There are no actual nazis here"
"But, if someone don't agree with me/us then they are a nazi!"
"Yay, I get to punch people!"

not this tired old nonsense again. we are talking about people carrying nazi flags and carrying placards with nazi slogans. now i might be wrong but i think there is a pretty good chance that they are actual nazis.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there is no middle ground with the reaction to them either. there is no debate with them. and if you are at a march that nazis think matches their beliefs then you need to take a long hard luck at yourself and have the balls to tell them to **** off home.

And who exactly would you feel compelled to tell to **** off home. I agree, I hate Nazis. But who else is on your spectrum of people who you won't tolerate? And how do you judge people? For example, if a person had a history of judging people based on the colour of their skin, would you tell them to **** off home? What about people who treat others different because of their sex? Or their sexuality? Would you approach them to tell them to **** off home?

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if you march next to somebody carrying a nazi flag or a placard with nazi slogans you are complicit. you are giving them legitimacy.

No. I disagree. I am responsible for my own actions. I have no right to impose my belief on anyone else and force them to comply. And because an arsehole agrees with me about something else, it doesn't mean I am an arsehole.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

not this tired old nonsense again. we are talking about people carrying nazi flags and carrying placards with nazi slogans. now i might be wrong but i think there is a pretty good chance that they are actual nazis.

Yes. These people certainly do look like absolute Nazis. The issue is antifa don't just target these people. Ben Shapiro doesn't fit any criteria for being a Nazi. Yet antifa did target him.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

And who exactly would you feel compelled to tell to **** off home. I agree, I hate Nazis. But who else is on your spectrum of people who you won't tolerate? And how do you judge people? For example, if a person had a history of judging people based on the colour of their skin, would you tell them to **** off home? What about people who treat others different because of their sex? Or their sexuality? Would you approach them to tell them to **** off home?

i feel very comfortable judging people carrying nazi flags. the same applies to racists. or bigots of any description. why do you find that so hard to understand?

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i feel very comfortable judging people carrying nazi flags. the same applies to racists. or bigots of any description. why do you find that so hard to understand?

Judging people and telling people to **** off home are very different things.

"Of any description".

By that can I assume that you are equally as fervent in your intolerance to black lives matter or the #manup movement or even "positive" discrimination, as some people consider elements of these are racist and sexist.

Or did you mean "of my description"?

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Judging people and telling people to **** off home are very different things.

"Of any description".

By that can I assume that you are equally as fervent in your intolerance to black lives matter or the #manup movement or even "positive" discrimination, as some people consider elements of these are racist and sexist.

Or did you mean "of my description"?

are you actually capable of sticking to a point? you just post ****e and hope something hits home.

biko

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

not this tired old nonsense again. we are talking about people carrying nazi flags and carrying placards with nazi slogans. now i might be wrong but i think there is a pretty good chance that they are actual nazis.

Yes, but the violence by Antifa is not only directed at these actual nazis is it?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

are you actually capable of sticking to a point? you just post ****e and hope something hits home.

My point has been, and remains to be, antifa and people who support antifa are not good people. Antifa are a group who wish to impose their vaguely defined ideology on everybody.
That is not to say that all people on the left are not good people.

I agree, some people on the right are bigots and Nazis. I disagree with their views and would actively oppose any attempt for them to impose their ideology on everybody. That is not to say that all people on the right are Nazis or bad people.

I haven't pivoted from that opinion or point. You said you would tell people who were bigoted or racist "in any description" to **** off home. I pointed out that you didn't actually mean that.

You are unable or unwilling to answer any questions posed to you and have accused me of straying from my point. That's simply not true.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

My point has been, and remains to be, antifa and people who support antifa are not good people. Antifa are a group who wish to impose their vaguely defined ideology on everybody.
That is not to say that all people on the left are not good people.

I agree, some people on the right are bigots and Nazis. I disagree with their views and would actively oppose any attempt for them to impose their ideology on everybody. That is not to say that all people on the right are Nazis or bad people.

I haven't pivoted from that opinion or point. You said you would tell people who were bigoted or racist "in any description" to **** off home. I pointed out that you didn't actually mean that.

You are unable or unwilling to answer any questions posed to you and have accused me of straying from my point. That's simply not true.

i'm pretty sure i know what i meant.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i'm pretty sure i know what i meant.

Great. Can you let us know?

Did you mean that only what YOU consider racist, sexist or bigoted should be forcibly stopped or did you mean that anything that can possibly be considered racist, sexist or bigoted should be forcibly stopped?