Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

Brian?

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Globalisation is slowing to a halt. That goose is well and truly cooked

Let’s celebrate the world becoming more nationalistic and insular. If history has taught us anything, this will always go well.

1800_Ladladlad

This is why i people should have their IQ tested before having a child. If its below average, sterilize them. This is just mad. Poor infant

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1286957398603644928

Frankx

Brian? wrote: »

That’s a world view I’m unfamiliar with and completely disagree with.

It goes against anything I’ve ever read about parenting or leadership. My living depends on me getting people to “pull themselves together” when they’re not performing. There is zero chance I’d use insults to do it.

The spoken word or the insult can register later with people and provoke change or awareness

Sometimes regular communication doesn't work

ExMachina1000

Brian? wrote: »

Let’s celebrate the world becoming more nationalistic and insular. If history has taught us anything, this will always go well.

Yes let's celebrate it. Be proud of your country, its culture and its traditions

Brian?

Frankx wrote: »

The spoken word or the insult can register later with people and provoke change or awareness

Sometimes regular communication doesn't work

If you need to resort to insults when communicating you’re doing it wrong.

Biker79

Brian? wrote: »

That’s a world view I’m unfamiliar with and completely disagree with.

It goes against anything I’ve ever read about parenting or leadership. My living depends on me getting people to “pull themselves together” when they’re not performing. There is zero chance I’d use insults to do it.

If we lived in a world where resources are infinite, where people have similar abilities and appetites...where entropy is not a universal constant...then I might share your world view.

Perhaps a lack of exposure to adversity is exactly why these people are protesting. They appear to be incapable of coping with life, when it does not go to plan. Perhaps as a result of being brought up in the way you describe.

Frankx

Brian? wrote: »

If you need to resort to insults when communicating you’re doing it wrong.

I didn't mean general communication

It had its uses sometimes if you're trying to help people

Brian?

Biker79 wrote: »

If we lived in a world where resources are infinite, where people have similar abilities and appetites...where entropy is not a universal constant...then I might share your world view.

Perhaps a lack of exposure to adversity is exactly why these people are protesting. They appear to be incapable of coping with life, when it does not go to plan. Perhaps as a result of being brought up in the way you describe.

They are protesting a grotesquely unfair system. Which they should be. It has absolutely nothing to do with with a lack of adversity.

To be frank, you have no idea what way these people were brought up. If you think forced adversity is the way to bring up children, I hope you aren’t a parent. My job as a parent is to minimise the amount of adversity my kids face. It’s what motivates me in my career.

Teach your kids to be respectful and empathetic, not to insult people you disagree with.

Brian?

Frankx wrote: »

I didn't mean general communication

It had its uses sometimes if you're trying to help people

I honestly don’t think it does. It’s a lazy tactic. I’m pretty sure people who resort to insults are too lazy to put in the work.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

I honestly don’t think it does. It’s a lazy tactic. I’m pretty sure people who resort to insults are too lazy to put in the work.

To be fair there's plenty of insulting and libelous stuff posted by people on both sides of this argument here. It isn't the preserve of one side and not the other.

Overheal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you a McCarthyist from the fifties or what?

DYK: Joe McCarthy and Donald Trump had the same lawyer friend? Roy Cohn. He was McCarthys chief counsel and Trumps attorney and mentor.

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

To be fair there's plenty of insulting and libelous stuff posted by people on both sides of this argument here. It isn't the preserve of one side and not the other.

Not really relevant to the discussion at hand, to be fair.

2 posters are arguing insults are actually needed to help people. Which sounds pretty insane to me.

I realise there's some irony that I am insulting people when giving out about insults, but I can't describe it any other way.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

Not really relevant to the discussion at hand, to be fair.

2 posters are arguing insults are actually needed to help people. Which sounds pretty insane to me.

I realise there's some irony that I am insulting people when giving out about insults, but I can't describe it any other way.

It's relevant to the thread as a whole.

They argued that insults "could" help people not that it was actually needed. I don't necessarily agree with that, however I don't agree with things being taken out of context either.

Biker79

If rationalising and facts arent enough to get through to them, then an insult is the next best thing in the toolbox.

Ive already linked to a piece of work that refutes with solid evidence, your world view and that of the Antifa/ BLM/ Climate hysteria etc..brigade. There is plenty more...btw. Sit down to Thomas Sowells ( African American Stanford economist ) interviews on the Hoover Institute youtube channel.

Frankly, I dont think you're open to having your world view up-ended by facts.

Who wouldnt feel like throwing out an insult, when facts are being persistently ignored?

You say a grossly inequal system. To who? The data shows people are more well off now than in history. Even if a chunk of that comes from social welfare transfers / government programs, it runs in parrallel with unprecedented opportunity if you are prepared to roll up your sleeves. And this good fortune is continuing on an upward trajectory.

Unless a bunch of militant left nutters try to destroy it, of course.

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

It's relevant to the thread as a whole.

They argued that insults "could" help people not that it was actually needed. I don't necessarily agree with that, however I don't agree with things being taken out of context either.

I asked why Antifa were constantly demeaned and insulted, even by some poster who can make otherwise intelligent points. In response I was told that insults are effective method of improving people.

That's the context.

Brian?

Biker79 wrote: »

If rationalising and facts arent enough to get through to them, then an insult is the next best thing in the toolbox.

You state that as fact, it isn't. Dialogue and attempted understanding might also work. Insults send everything into a spiral about who can throw the most crap. It's not constructive in any way.

Ive already linked to a piece of work that refutes with solid evidence, your world view and that of the Antifa/ BLM/ Climate hysteria etc..brigade. There is plenty more...btw. Sit down to Thomas Sowells ( African American Harvard economist ) interviews on the Hoover Institute youtube channel.

Frankly, I dont think you're open to having your world view up-ended by facts.

I'm quite open to changing my opinion when presented with facts. What you are doing is presenting someone's opinion as evidence and calling it fact.

I like listening to opinions btw, especially ones that challenge my own. It's the reason I still post in this thread, among others. Constantly challenging your own world view is extremely important.

Who wouldnt feel like throwing out an insult, when facts are being persistently ignored?

Plenty of people. It's called taking the moral high ground. Insults completely undermine your own position.

You say a grossly inequal system. To who? The data shows people are more well off now than in history. Even if a chunk of that comes from social welfare transfers / government programs, it runs in parrallel with unprecedented opportunity if you are prepared to roll up your sleeves. And this good fortune is continuing on an upward trajectory.

Unless a bunch of militant left nutters try to destroy it, of course.

I said grossly unfair system. Equality of outcome isn't desirable.

Just because we are doing better than previous generations it doesn't make the current situation acceptable. A large slice of the reason life is better now for working people is because "left wing nutters" organised workers into unions and forced through workers rights legislation.

This idea that everything will be fine if everyone just rolls up their sleeves and gets on with hard work is the worst sort of nonsense. It's an appeal to orthodoxy. No need for the proletariat to get uppity, they've never had it better! I think the same argument had been made since we had social hierarchies.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

I asked why Antifa were constantly demeaned and insulted, even by some poster who can make otherwise intelligent points. In response I was told that insults are effective method of improving people.

That's the context.

In your previous post you used the word "needed" in relation to insults, now you're saying they are deemed "effective", so I assume you agree that you originally misinterpreted what the context was?

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

In your previous post you used the word "needed" in relation to insults, now you're saying they are deemed "effective", so I assume you agree that you originally misinterpreted what the context was?

I really don’t think I did. The clear implication was that people insulted Antifa because it was needed to get them to cop themselves on.

It’s cheap and it’s lazy.

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

In your previous post you used the word "needed" in relation to insults, now you're saying they are deemed "effective", so I assume you agree that you originally misinterpreted what the context was?

Is there any other way to interpret this?

Insults are a traditional way of provoking people into pulling themselves together

It has a whiff of Jordan Peterson without the intellectual depth.

Biker79

The other value of an insult is, it exposes whether a world view has integrity...if it can stand up to criticism and scrutiny.

A world view that turns out to be thin-skinned is hard to credit. If it will blow over in the first gust of wind, it doesn't have much value. In fact, this principle is at the heart of our adversarial western democratic system ( although is often abused by the media ).

Steven Pinkers book deals with a large body of data, which in turn accurately captures subject matter facts. So,with regards to the subject matter he deals with, its not just an opinion.

An opinion based on irrefutable facts is clearly superior to one that is drawn from hearsay, feelings, idealism and an aspiration to be a ' good person '.

Biker79

Brian? wrote: »

Just because we are doing better than previous generations it doesn't make the current situation acceptable. A large slice of the reason life is better now for working people is because "left wing nutters" organised workers into unions and forced through workers rights legislation.

This idea that everything will be fine if everyone just rolls up their sleeves and gets on with hard work is the worst sort of nonsense. It's an appeal to orthodoxy. No need for the proletariat to get uppity, they've never had it better! I think the same argument had been made since we had social hierarchies.

Wrong. The free market has beaten socialism as an ideology. If you are at the bottom of the money pile, you still have access to a lifestyle only the richest 20% had 50 years ago. This is not thanks to socialism. Unions are no longer neccessary thanks to the upward trajectory of the free market system.

You dont have to roll up your sleeves all that much. A half assed effort is enough to have access to a comfortable lifestyle...if you can park your tribalism/ tendency to addiction/ resentment at your neighbours success etc. etc..

Overheal

Portland Protesters now joined by Wall of Veterans in response to underhanded response by the Department of Homeland Security, up to and concluding shattering the hand of a navy vet who stood peacefully with his arms at his sides, also pepper sprayed in the same instance.

In the last 2 weeks, since DHS started sweeping Antifa and BLM protesters up into minivans, the size of the crowds has swelled from a few dozen, to over ten thousand.

https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/wall-of-veterans-arrives-in-portland-to-protect-black-lives-matter-protesters-from-trumps-dhs-troops/

Overheal

Grandad Antifascists now. This guy is a first time protester, drove down to Portland from Olympia, WA (115 Miles) bought a brand new leaf blower for the occassion

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/hxf38q/follow_up_granddad_with_a_blower/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

Tony EH

Biker79 wrote: »

If rationalising and facts arent enough to get through to them, then an insult is the next best thing in the toolbox.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that there are only certain people you'd insult. One's you'd be sure you wouldn't get a smack in the gob from.

If you think you'll get people on side by insulting them, then you probably need to up your level of interaction with other folk.

Brian?

Biker79 wrote: »

Wrong. The free market has beaten socialism as an ideology. If you are at the bottom of the money pile, you still have access to a lifestyle only the richest 20% had 50 years ago. This is not thanks to socialism. Unions are no longer neccessary thanks to the upward trajectory of the free market system.

You dont have to roll up your sleeves all that much. A half assed effort is enough to have access to a comfortable lifestyle...if you can park your tribalism/ tendency to addiction/ resentment at your neighbours success etc. etc..

Man it’s easy to spout such nonsense while sitting in the comfort of a social democracy, knowing the social safety net will catch you if you fall. All thanks to the blood, sweat and tears of “lefty nutters” who fought for these rights.

mikeym

The antifa vs The Yellow vests is getting very ugly.

From what I saw from todays video.

To both sides Stay at home you will save lives.

Biker79

Tony EH wrote: »

I'd bet my bottom dollar that there are only certain people you'd insult. One's you'd be sure you wouldn't get a smack in the gob from.

If you think you'll get people on side by insulting them, then you probably need to up your level of interaction with other folk.

100%. I'm sure organisations who advocate violence and destruction of property would only be too happy to turn it in my direction.

Not interested in getting people on ' side '. Facts stand independent of who likes them or not.

Brian? wrote: »

Man it’s easy to spout such nonsense while sitting in the comfort of a social democracy, knowing the social safety net will catch you if you fall. All thanks to the blood, sweat and tears of “lefty nutters” who fought for these rights.

You mean thanks to the hardworkers who pay the lionshare of taxes which fund the social safety net? As far as I can see, lefty nutters tend to be otherwise occupied...

The social welfare state was not borne from lefty agitation.

Tony EH

Biker79 wrote: »

Wrong. The free market has beaten socialism as an ideology. If you are at the bottom of the money pile, you still have access to a lifestyle only the richest 20% had 50 years ago. This is not thanks to socialism. Unions are no longer neccessary thanks to the upward trajectory of the free market system.

You dont have to roll up your sleeves all that much. A half assed effort is enough to have access to a comfortable lifestyle...if you can park your tribalism/ tendency to addiction/ resentment at your neighbours success etc. etc..

If this is an example of your "facts", it appears you have an awful lot to learn.

You can start by looking up how the so called "free" market is constantly manipulated by certain quarters making it not so free.

You sound like just another internet kid that hasn't stopped ****ting green yet, but has read a few lines by Alan Greenspan on the web and think you know it all.

Tony EH

Biker79 wrote: »

100%. I'm sure organisations who advocate violence and destruction of property would only be too happy to turn it in my direction.

You'd probably deserve it.

Biker79

Tony EH wrote: »

You'd probably deserve it.