Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

Brian?

Biker79 wrote: »

100%. I'm sure organisations who advocate violence and destruction of property would only be too happy to turn it in my direction.

Not interested in getting people on ' side '. Facts stand independent of who likes them or not.



You mean thanks to the hardworkers who pay the lionshare of taxes which fund the social safety net? As far as I can see, lefty nutters tend to be otherwise occupied...

The social welfare state was not borne from lefty agitation.

Nice deflection. Zero acknowledgement that the organised labour movement was responsible for the current labour conditions you benefit from, if you work.

Honest working class people, like myself, who were branded as communists agitators, traitors, militant extremists etc. just because they wanted better pay and safer working conditions.

I’d they rolled up their sleeves and kept their mouths shut, I doubt you’d have the luxury of posting your opinion online today

Sweetemotion

Brian? wrote: »

Nice deflection. Zero acknowledgement that the organised labour movement was responsible for the current labour conditions you benefit from, if you work.

Honest working class people, like myself, who were branded as communists agitators, traitors, militant extremists etc. just because they wanted better pay and safer working conditions.

I’d they rolled up their sleeves and kept their mouths shut, I doubt you’d have the luxury of posting your opinion online today

Honest working class people like yourself are having their businesses and lively hoods destroyed during these protests.You can romanticise all you want about about how great antifa are but you're only fooling yourself.


Convicted pedo antifacist stabs black man during blm protest.


https://twitter.com/PTNewsnetwork/status/1286976159603920898

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

Nice deflection. Zero acknowledgement that the organised labour movement was responsible for the current labour conditions you benefit from, if you work.

Honest working class people, like myself, who were branded as communists agitators, traitors, militant extremists etc. just because they wanted better pay and safer working conditions.

I’d they rolled up their sleeves and kept their mouths shut, I doubt you’d have the luxury of posting your opinion online today

All the things you've mentioned above have little in common with Antifa (the topic of this thread), nor in fact does modern left leaning political ideology.

I myself spent years as a union member, I have strong views about workers rights and have taken action against employers abusing those rights and put myself in situations where my beliefs have had an adverse effect on my employment situation but taking action was the right thing to do, not just for me but for all my colleagues. I've been around the course in this regard and to be frank the likes of the identity politics we see represented by groups such as Antifa makes a mockery of what being left wing traditionally meant.

I understand that you are having a separate conversation tangential to the main topic of the thread, but to see somebody defending Antifa who seemingly casually links them to the trade union movement isn't something I feel should be allowed to continue.

Antifa are largely made up of people who wouldn't have use for employment in which union membership would be deemed necessary. Antifa are an identity politics, university gap year fun and games club for over privileged brats with no real world life experience, but a shed load of white guilt who gladly turn their hand to violence and seem to serve no other purpose but to make far right groups look moderate and reasonable.

There is a clear difference between the old meaning of left wing and the new.
In the past being left wing(in the setting of a Western democracy) meant you were interested in workers rights and a fair deal for the downtrodden in society. These days it seems to be more about blaming people for societal problems based on skin colour and the perception of privilege, everyone who disagrees with you is automatically a fascist or a racist and needs to have their voice silenced.

This has no relation to the trade union movement, how could it when those involved will likely never work in a low paying job in their life?

Overheal

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Honest working class people like yourself are having their businesses and lively hoods destroyed during these protests.You can romanticise all you want about about how great antifa are but you're only fooling yourself.


Convicted pedo antifacist stabs black man during blm protest.


https://twitter.com/PTNewsnetwork/status/1286976159603920898

Saw that earlier. The guy was grabbed from behind by someone trying to confront him. Not my first choice to have a knife over pepper spray but it likely would pass muster for self defense in court depending on the investigation into the alleged stalking behavior.

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

Saw that earlier. The guy was grabbed from behind by someone trying to confront him. Not my first choice to have a knife over pepper spray but it likely would pass muster for self defense in court depending on the investigation into the alleged stalking behavior.

Are you defending the stabbing?
It's one hell of a rock to choose to perish on.

Why is a person attending a demonstration with a lethal weapon on their person to begin with?

Tony EH

nullzero wrote: »

All the things you've mentioned above have little in common with Antifa (the topic of this thread), nor in fact does modern left leaning political ideology.

And I'd say to you, as I've said to others on the forum, that you need to be careful what you claim as the "left"..."modern" or otherwise.

Nothing, to me, about the likes of Antifa or BLM (or any number of whipping boys on this forum) is recognisably left wing, no matter how much right wing YouTubers (and others) like to cheaply claim. They appear to be largely confused semi-anarchist groups, who have their own made up meaning of what anarchy is, into the bargain, which is an admittedly easy thing to do.

However, there is little going on here with these groups that I can associate with left wing thinking in any shape or form. They all seem to be concerned with an extremely narrow avenue of political thought that is neither truly left or right and unified only by the fact that they seem angry at the status quo (which is neither the proclivity of Left or Right) to which they act that anger out in violent ways, due to frustration.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to a befuddled American school of baby politics, that I would say most people in this hemisphere are absolutely astonished by. But, perhaps, this comes down to that country having their second revolution or something. An idea that holding authority to account is a good thing, but lacking the ability to do it correctly...a malaise which has been the bane of American society since its inception.

The truly tragic thing about all of this is that it tends to seep into the public consciousness outside of the confines of that country due to easy dissemination via the web.

Clarence Boddiker

Brian? wrote: »

Nice deflection. Zero acknowledgement that the organised labour movement was responsible for the current labour conditions you benefit from, if you work.

Honest working class people, like myself, who were branded as communists agitators, traitors, militant extremists etc. just because they wanted better pay and safer working conditions.

I’d they rolled up their sleeves and kept their mouths shut, I doubt you’d have the luxury of posting your opinion online today

You must really hate the Green Party then, who just voted against worker protections, living wage, unions, extended maternity leave.

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

Are you defending the stabbing?
It's one hell of a rock to choose to perish on.

Why is a person attending a demonstration with a lethal weapon on their person to begin with?

Self defense weapon. Used in self defense. It’s not like we’ve never seen that before. Or more. Two militias, one left and one right wing, were out today in Louisville, armed with rifles. Attending a demonstration.

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

Self defense weapon. Used in self defense. It’s not like we’ve never seen that before. Or more. Two militias, one left and one right wing, were out today in Louisville, armed with rifles. Attending a demonstration.

A knife isn't a self defence weapon.
The person in question stabbed another person with the knife, which isn't defending themselves using reasonable force.

The two militias you mentioned don't have any bearing on this situation, however if they are carrying rifles in public one would assume they have permits for those weapons. Rifles are also not concealed weapons, something which requires a different type of licence in most American states.

I find it unbelievable that you would find a means of defending a stabbing.
What would your opinion be if it were a left wing demonstrator stabbed by a right wing individual? I think from your history here we can draw a pretty reasonable conclusion.

Stabbings are a criminal offence and cannot be deemed a reasonable means of self defence.
You've really jumped the fence on this one.

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

A knife isn't a self defence weapon.
The person in question stabbed another person with the knife, which isn't defending themselves using reasonable force.

The two militias you mentioned don't have any bearing on this situation, however if they are carrying rifles in public one would assume they have permits for those weapons. Rifles are also not concealed weapons, something which requires a different type of licence in most American states.

I find it unbelievable that you would find a means of defending a stabbing.
What would your opinion be if it were a left wing demonstrator stabbed by a right wing individual? I think from your history here we can draw a pretty reasonable conclusion.

Stabbings are a criminal offence and cannot be deemed a reasonable means of self defence.
You've really jumped the fence on this one.

It was a self defense weapon and used in self defense, only appeared when he was physically grabbed from behind in a confrontational manner, and used with one single, and nonlethal stab, which seems to very much meet the bracket for reasonable force. The stab victim was transported to ambulance without incident. He won't be the first nor the last person to carry a knife for self defense either. I don't think the knifer is completely oblivious to the attackers accusation of stalking though and a prosecutor should investigate the situation fully.

I don't care if you don't like my answer but my answer is clear, let's not get into another 30 posts about it that nobody else wants to read and that we've already been warned not to do.

edit: Oregon law doesn't allow concealed carry of a knife, so charge would likely be aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. So, even if he carried it in self defense and used it in self defense, it's a crime there. In South Carolina, where I reside, concealed carry is legal but loses its legal protection in the act of a crime (self-defense is not a crime).

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

It was a self defense weapon and used in self defense, only appeared when he was physically grabbed from behind in a confrontational manner, and used with one single, and nonlethal stab, which seems to very much meet the bracket for reasonable force. The stab victim was transported to ambulance without incident. He won't be the first nor the last person to carry a knife for self defense either. I don't think the knifer is completely oblivious to the attackers accusation of stalking though and a prosecutor should investigate the situation fully.

I don't care if you don't like my answer but my answer is clear, let's not get into another 30 posts about it that nobody else wants to read and that we've already been warned not to do.

edit: Oregon law doesn't allow concealed carry of a knife, so charge would likely be aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. So, even if he carried it in self defense and used it in self defense, it's a crime there. In South Carolina, where I reside, concealed carry is legal but loses its legal protection in the act of a crime (self-defense is not a crime).

I don't like your answer because it's completely off the wall and out of touch with reality.
I won't get into a 30+ post discussion about it, but it isn't reasonable for you to use a warning about a previous discussion to close down this discussion whilst posting a lengthy post about how you think you think you are right and shouldn't be challenged.

You are making a lot of assumptions about stalking, when what we have amounts to less than one minute of actual footage. We don't know what transpired before the video and the very notion that stabbing somebody in the torso is a reasonable form of self defence is alarming, and makes me question your state of mind.

Danzy

Brian? wrote: »

Nice deflection. Zero acknowledgement that the organised labour movement was responsible for the current labour conditions you benefit from, if you work.

Honest working class people, like myself, who were branded as communists agitators, traitors, militant extremists etc. just because they wanted better pay and safer working conditions.

I’d they rolled up their sleeves and kept their mouths shut, I doubt you’d have the luxury of posting your opinion online today

The left then was mostly Working Class, today it is mostly middle class.

It's quite wrong to compare the two.

Biker79

Brian? wrote: »

Nice deflection. Zero acknowledgement that the organised labour movement was responsible for the current labour conditions you benefit from, if you work.

Honest working class people, like myself, who were branded as communists agitators, traitors, militant extremists etc. just because they wanted better pay and safer working conditions.

I’d they rolled up their sleeves and kept their mouths shut, I doubt you’d have the luxury of posting your opinion online today

Now that is complete nonsense. Organised labour movements filled a gap that governmental instutitions werent able to at the time, so at best they provided relief to a sitution at that point in time. Workers rights would have been supported in due course, by the institutions that do so today. Since then, much has changed within institutions and governmental administration that you cannot compare the two. That change has been demonstrably driven by free markets, ecomonic growth, instutional development and general improvements in living standards. But you keep patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel better about your redundant ideologies.

You also cherry pick between 'honest working class' and ' elite liberal ' ...whenever it suits...so why should anyone take you seriously. The fact these are utterly daft, misleading labels is besides the point - but thats Marxist propaganda for you.

Anyway...Ive linked to an ambundance of material that refutes everything you and your Antifa comrades have put forward. I'm guessing you wont read because your beliefs are closer to religous zealotry than pragmatic intellectual inquiry.

Biker79

Tony EH wrote: »

I

You can start by looking up how the so called "free" market is constantly manipulated by certain quarters making it not so free.

Managed, not manipulated.

Conspiracy forum is that way >

Brian?

Biker79 wrote: »

Now that is complete nonsense. Organised labour movements filled a gap that governmental instutitions werent able to at the time, so at best they provided relief to a sitution at that point in time. Workers rights would have been supported in due course, by the institutions that do so today. Since then, much has changed within institutions and governmental administration that you cannot compare the two. That change has been demonstrably driven by free markets, ecomonic growth, instutional development and general improvements in living standards. But you keep patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel better about your redundant ideologies.

This is comedy gold. No need to complain or protest, the government will look after you, if they don't the free market will sort it out.

You also cherry pick between 'honest working class' and ' elite liberal ' ...whenever it suits...so why should anyone take you seriously. The fact these are utterly daft, misleading labels is besides the point - but thats Marxist propaganda for you.

When have I ever used the phrase "liberal elite"? Liberalism isn't a left wing ideology. Liberalism was the original birthplace of laissez faire free market economics.

I'm also not a Marxist. You're presupposing a lot of stuff about my beliefs here. You do know it's possible to be left wing an not a Marxist, right?

Anyway...Ive linked to an ambundance of material that refutes everything you and your Antifa comrades have put forward. I'm guessing you wont read because your beliefs are closer to religous zealotry than pragmatic intellectual inquiry.

What links exactly?

Fyi, I'm not in Antifa and never will be. I'm a pacifist and don't support violence in any circumstances.

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

All the things you've mentioned above have little in common with Antifa (the topic of this thread), nor in fact does modern left leaning political ideology.

I myself spent years as a union member, I have strong views about workers rights and have taken action against employers abusing those rights and put myself in situations where my beliefs have had an adverse effect on my employment situation but taking action was the right thing to do, not just for me but for all my colleagues. I've been around the course in this regard and to be frank the likes of the identity politics we see represented by groups such as Antifa makes a mockery of what being left wing traditionally meant.

I understand that you are having a separate conversation tangential to the main topic of the thread, but to see somebody defending Antifa who seemingly casually links them to the trade union movement isn't something I feel should be allowed to continue.

Antifa are largely made up of people who wouldn't have use for employment in which union membership would be deemed necessary. Antifa are an identity politics, university gap year fun and games club for over privileged brats with no real world life experience, but a shed load of white guilt who gladly turn their hand to violence and seem to serve no other purpose but to make far right groups look moderate and reasonable.

There is a clear difference between the old meaning of left wing and the new.
In the past being left wing(in the setting of a Western democracy) meant you were interested in workers rights and a fair deal for the downtrodden in society. These days it seems to be more about blaming people for societal problems based on skin colour and the perception of privilege, everyone who disagrees with you is automatically a fascist or a racist and needs to have their voice silenced.

This has no relation to the trade union movement, how could it when those involved will likely never work in a low paying job in their life?

You’ve completely missed my point. People are barracking “the left” as if we are all mad for the identity politics, we aren’t.

At no point have I actually defended Antifa. I hate the hysteria around them and can’t stand the broad strokes people pain all left wing people with.

Brian?

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

You must really hate the Green Party then, who just voted against worker protections, living wage, unions, extended maternity leave.

I hate FF and FG. I’m not very impressed with he Greens.

What does this have to do with the price of eggs?

Brian?

Danzy wrote: »

The left then was mostly Working Class, today it is mostly middle class.

It's quite wrong to compare the two.

There are plenty of working class people who are left wing. That’s a ridiculous statement. Look at the TDs elected In the working class areas of Dublin.

NotMOL

White Antifa Member Calls Black Man a "F**king Uncle Tom"

ExMachina1000

NotMOL wrote: »

White Antifa Member Calls Black Man a "F**king Uncle Tom"

Such a coward and evidently a racist too.

In real life he is a nobody. No future prospects, no qualifications and no skills.
The longer these protests go on the longer he feels like he has a purpose in life
Once it's all over and he has to return to his old loser life he will sink into a deep depression and rely on the state for everything.

These people allhave similar stories. Outcasts and losers. Grew up not quite fitting in. Blaming everyone else for their crappy lives.
Once confronted they shrink back into their real personality

1800_Ladladlad

NotMOL wrote: »

White Antifa Member Calls Black Man a "F**king Uncle Tom"

Anyone who follows or shares the beliefs of this lot is specific kind of special.

Mr. Karate

NotMOL wrote: »

White Antifa Member Calls Black Man a "F**king Uncle Tom"

Just remember that its the Conservatives that are the racists.:rolleyes:

Pa ElGrande

Interview with the dead man before the shooting.

BLM Protester Fatally Shot in Austin: ‘People Who Hate Us’ Are ‘Too Big of Pussies to Actually Do Anything About It’


The crowd are shouting ANTIFA before the guy with the rifle is shot dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o8369rHfOM

The suspect was in a vehicle at the time of the shooting, as protesters marched down Congress Avenue.

Austin police stated that initial reports indicated the victim may have been carrying a rifle when he approached the suspect's vehicle, and the suspect shot at the victim.

The suspect has since been detained and is cooperating with officers.

source

jackboy

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

These people allhave similar stories. Outcasts and losers. Grew up not quite fitting in.

This is part of what the masks are for. They can go out pretend they are someone else because they hate themselves. The harass and vandalise to drag all down to their level.

Overheal

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Such a coward and evidently a racist too.

In real life he is a nobody. No future prospects, no qualifications and no skills.
The longer these protests go on the longer he feels like he has a purpose in life
Once it's all over and he has to return to his old loser life he will sink into a deep depression and rely on the state for everything.

These people allhave similar stories. Outcasts and losers. Grew up not quite fitting in. Blaming everyone else for their crappy lives.
Once confronted they shrink back into their real personality

You call it racist and then carry on to stereotype the man. Pot calling the kettle Black.

Overheal

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Interview with the dead man before the shooting.

BLM Protester Fatally Shot in Austin: ‘People Who Hate Us’ Are ‘Too Big of Pussies to Actually Do Anything About It’


The crowd are shouting ANTIFA before the guy with the rifle is shot dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o8369rHfOM

Hard to say what happened still. Many armed protesters around the country, which is lawful. We don’t know if he was trigger disciplined ie. Pointing the gun at the driver or if the driver just saw rifle held low by a black man and immediately feared for his life. Someone either took video or there is eyewitness accounts, though. This will be investigated to heck.

ExMachina1000

Overheal wrote: »

You call it racist and then carry on to stereotype the man. Pot calling the kettle Black.

Yes racism and stereotyping are the same thing.

Overheal

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Yes racism and stereotyping are the same thing.

Why else are you assuming this man has no prospects or skills?

Danzy

Overheal wrote: »

Hard to say what happened still. Many armed protesters around the country, which is lawful. We don’t know if he was trigger disciplined ie. Pointing the gun at the driver or if the driver just saw rifle held low by a black man and immediately feared for his life. Someone either took video or there is eyewitness accounts, though. This will be investigated to heck.

Approach and surround a car with weapons and you'll get shot if the person inside has a weapon. They knew it was either him or them.

Overheal

Danzy wrote: »

Approach and surround a car with weapons and you'll get shot if the person inside has a weapon. They knew it was either him or them.

Assuming an awful lot there. Especially how 1 person can "surround" a vehicle :rolleyes: