Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

alastair

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Theres also the converse approach.
The idea in many peoples heads is that these charismatic, creative, business people would all be brought down to the level of everyone else under communism/ socialism. Not thrive as high level party officials, generals, corrupt black market traders or any other manor of thrive against adversity. Would they get their dream where denis o brien becomes a factory worker and waits in the bread line , not a chance

The model AOC is lobbying for is essentially plain old Nordic model social democracy. Denis O Brien would be no more required to do factory work than Ingvar Kamprad was.

RayPurchase

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Theres also the converse approach.
The idea in many peoples heads is that these charismatic, creative, business people would all be brought down to the level of everyone else under communism/ socialism. Not thrive as high level party officials, generals, corrupt black market traders or any other manor of thrive against adversity. Would they get their dream where denis o brien becomes a factory worker and waits in the bread line , not a chance

I think most people are aware that people will thrive more than others. I have no idea where you get the idea that people think Denis O'Brien would somehow wind up working in a factory.

But wealth disparity would not be as disgusting as it is in the US, which is made worse again by the fact that something as innocuous a broken arm can financially cripple you for years, just from the hospital bills to pay it. Scandinavia would be good better examples of socialist nations, and those consistently come up right at the top for standards of living - comfortably above the US.

It's not a matter of 'bringing other people down', it's a matter of people wanting to improve the quality of life for themselves and those around them.

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Under our current system the rich become powerful, under Socialism the powerful become rich.

By the way, you should take a look at how much richer American politicians get while in/after leaving office. Use their power to change policy to what their paymasters want, leave politics, assume a cushy position on the board of said paymaster earning millions to influence the newer politicians and ensure the cycle keeps on running.

That's about the the definition of the powerful becoming rich, wouldn't you agree?

Woodsie1

Scandinavian countries arent really the socialist utopias the nutty left believe they are.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/#35ddd5ce74ad

Pa ElGrande

RayPurchase wrote: »

By the way, you should take a look at how much richer American politicians get while in/after leaving office. Use their power to change policy to what their paymasters want, leave politics, assume a cushy position on the board of said paymaster earning millions to influence the newer politicians and ensure the cycle keeps on running.

That's about the the definition of the powerful becoming rich, wouldn't you agree?

I am well aware of thy link between the United States elected representatives and K Street. They are just guns for hire, well compensated for sure, then for the leaders after leaving office there are the book sales, speaking tours and "charitable foundations". It was Clinton who signed into law the 1993 Student Loan Reform Act which made the loans non-dischargeable in event of bankruptcy which set the stage for the todays crisis. The Clinton foundation was well supported after his reign and the speaking fees, current trend in the US started with Reagans Japan tour. and don't forget Tony Blair, though biscuit tin Bertie is in the minor leagues, one wonders how he his back was scratched for the Shannon landings during the early 2000s Iraq war.


Politicians aside, it is interesting to note how the bankers themselves escaped jail, that the SEC fined the companies (i.e. shareholders) but not the bankers themselves who managed to put on their golden parachutes an exit the burning building. Even in Ireland, Sean Fitzpatrick got away without jail time and they are still waiting for Michael Fingleton to die.

Midlife

Woodsie1 wrote: »

Scandinavian countries arent really the socialist utopias the nutty left believe they are.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/#35ddd5ce74ad

From your article...

Yes, they offer government-paid healthcare, in some cases tuition-free university educations, and rather generous social safety nets, all financed with high taxes. However, it is possible to do these things without interfering in the private sector more than required.

This seems to be pretty much what the new democrats seek to do.

So is your argument that this won't work or it's technically not 'socialism'.

alastair

Woodsie1 wrote: »

Scandinavian countries arent really the socialist utopias the nutty left believe they are.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/#35ddd5ce74ad

The Forbes piece, while conceding that the Nordic model is very successful, seems to be mostly concerned with telling us that those countries are not communist. This isn’t news to anyone. Glossing over state supports, welfare and free public education to tell us that there isn’t a state minimum wage, when the Nordic model has always been about trade union’s involvement in employment legislation - as is the nature of corporatism - the underpinning of social democracy, and where 90% of employees are on union-determined, and binding minimum wages, is just silly. There’s no utopia of any kind in any nation, but the Nordic model is (still) social democracy at work.

kunst nugget

Woodsie1 wrote: »

Scandinavian countries arent really the socialist utopias the nutty left believe they are.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/#35ddd5ce74ad

They were never classed as socialist. They are social democracies.

Eric Cartman

What I love about peoples aspirations to be like nordic countries is they decide theyre ‘better’ based on handing out money and services and lax treatment of prisoners. Its not a model worth following, even if it didn’t require vast oil and mineral resources.

alastair

Eric Cartman wrote: »

What I love about peoples aspirations to be like nordic countries is they decide theyre ‘better’ based on handing out money and services and lax treatment of prisoners. Its not a model worth following, even if it didn’t require vast oil and mineral resources.

Social Democracy doesn't require either - Denmark has neither - it's economy has traditionally been based on agriculture and fishing. And yes - they're 'better' systems by pretty much all measurements. Refer to the recent 'happiest nations' UN study, and note the continued rankings for the Nordic model nations.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/duncanmadden/2019/03/28/ranked-the-10-happiest-countries-in-the-world-in-2019/#2924780548a5

SexBobomb

These countries are a bit of a special case though, they were very well run in combination with having a smaller population and being rich in natural resources. Copying what they do wouldn't necessarily work in a another country that didn't have these 3 factors in its favour imo.

alastair

SexBobomb wrote: »

These countries are a bit of a special case though, they were very well run in combination with having a smaller population and being rich in natural resources. Copying what they do wouldn't necessarily work in a another country that didn't have these 3 factors in its favour imo.

Neither Denmark nor Finland are particularly rich in natural resources. Obviously any system of governance needs to be well run to be effective - that's nothing exceptional. And all systems need to be tailored to the specifics of the nation they're applied to - just as they were/are within the Nordic countries.

rossie1977

The US tax payer are being screwed re healthcare and higher education. The US spends a huge amount of public money on both those areas. Per capita the US spends more public money on health than every country on Earth except Norway.

VicMackey1 wrote: »

The democrats really need to go easy with the racist accusations, especially the likes of AOC. It seems that anyone that questions her agenda will be branded a racist. The party who created the kkk calling everyone else racists is pretty ironic.

Democratic party did not create KKK. Anyway the Democratic party (and Republican one for that matter) are vastly different from the parties of the 1860s. Some southern Republicans today proudly display the Confederate flag while claiming to be the party of Lincoln which makes no sense given the Confederacy went to war against Lincoln.

Pa ElGrande

alastair wrote: »

Social Democracy doesn't require either - Denmark has neither - it's economy has traditionally been based on agriculture and fishing. And yes - they're 'better' systems by pretty much all measurements. Refer to the recent 'happiest nations' UN study, and note the continued rankings for the Nordic model nations.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/duncanmadden/2019/03/28/ranked-the-10-happiest-countries-in-the-world-in-2019/#2924780548a5

Be wary of happiness research, it's really promoted to persuade the us that poverty (i.e. equality of outcome) and servitude to the state (i.e. high taxation) are superior to prosperity, freedom and personal responsibility. I imagine that were such surveys available that those living in the Soviet Union would have been the happiest people on earth. Happiness research is also behind a lot of sloppy "econometrics research" generated by the economics profession, since it is much easier to send out a survey with preconceived notions and "analyse" that than actually going through the laborious time and effort of compiling actual raw data.

alastair

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Be wary of happiness research, it's really promoted to persuade the us that poverty (i.e. equality of outcome) and servitude to the state (i.e. high taxation) are superior to prosperity, freedom and personal responsibility. I imagine that were such surveys available that those living in the Soviet Union would have been the happiest people on earth. Happiness research is also behind a lot of sloppy "econometrics research" generated by the economics profession, since it is much easier to send out a survey with preconceived notions and "analyse" that than actually going through the laborious time and effort of compiling actual raw data.

Eh, no.

actual methodology outlined here: https://worldhappiness.report/faq/

Midlife

So if i get this straight, any effort to bring in things like higher taxation, social safety nets, free college education, free healthcare are totally wrong because...

a: that's socialism, look at venezuela
b: the rich will just leave if you raise taxes
c: it only works in other countries that are different to the US
d: it doesn't actually work in those countries, they're not as great as you think

Anything else?

I'm curious as to what the alternative solution to the huge inequality in the states is. I mean it's clearly driving such discontement that the country is tearing itself apart.

I don't think blaming immigrants will work long term.

20Cent

AOC and Bernie Sanders would fit right into Fine Gael no problem. The idea they are extreme is laughable. There is socialism in the US already but it's for the top 1%.

JohnMc1

20Cent wrote: »

AOC and Bernie Sanders would fit right into Fine Gael no problem. The idea they are extreme is laughable. There is socialism in the US already but it's for the top 1%.

Socialism has always favored the top 1%.

Pa ElGrande

Midlife wrote: »

So if i get this straight, any effort to bring in things like higher taxation, social safety nets, free college education, free healthcare are totally wrong because...

a: that's socialism, look at venezuela
b: the rich will just leave if you raise taxes
c: it only works in other countries that are different to the US
d: it doesn't actually work in those countries, they're not as great as you think

Anything else?

I'm curious as to what the alternative solution to the huge inequality in the states is. I mean it's clearly driving such discontement that the country is tearing itself apart.

I don't think blaming immigrants will work long term.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, free <insert political promise> or whatever <insert vested interest group> subsidy you like all have costs and trade offs with them. These fail really quickly under direct socialist systems because there is no free market price discovery mechanism to regulate availability of resources through time. That consequence usually leads to rationing of available services to those deemed worthy which are usually those aligned to the ruling party. (See
Nomenklatura in the Soviet Union), for everyone else there is the shadow economy.


It's not just the 1% that leave the effects are spread down the chain as the incentives to improve your life through honest enterprise (i.e. respect property rights) are removed that's often summed up in the phrase "they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work".


People across the western world generally pay taxes for few reasons:

1. To avoid violence from the state. i.e. try not paying your taxes.

2. They think they are getting more out that they put in. i.e. Most people in Ireland depend on the state pension and other benefits for their retirement plan.


None of the public services is free, we do get something in return for our taxes considering the amount they take from us however the price is loss of sovereignty and reduction in freedom and distortion of economic incentives. The pensioner gets the free travel pass, however that cost is levied on the other users or the service and tax payers and as the demand rises for new "free" services so do the demands for new taxation revenue.


Ireland and other western countries work in a hampered market economy, it is why they have not gone bankrupt yet, they will eventually in the meantime the governments are hunting for new taxes, you have already been hit with USC, and since they have figured out how to monetise the air the carbon taxes keep rising. There is no balance in a centrally planned economy, they all go broke even monopolies go broke for the same reason they loose the connection between prices and availability of resources.

Midlife

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

There is no such thing as a free lunch, free <insert political promise> or whatever <insert vested interest group> subsidy you like all have costs and trade offs with them. These fail really quickly under direct socialist systems because there is no free market price discovery mechanism to regulate availability of resources through time. That consequence usually leads to rationing of available services to those deemed worthy which are usually those aligned to the ruling party. (See
Nomenklatura in the Soviet Union), for everyone else there is the shadow economy.


It's not just the 1% that leave the effects are spread down the chain as the incentives to improve your life through honest enterprise (i.e. respect property rights) are removed that's often summed up in the phrase "they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work".


People across the western world generally pay taxes for few reasons:

1. To avoid violence from the state. i.e. try not paying your taxes.

2. They think they are getting more out that they put in. i.e. Most people in Ireland depend on the state pension and other benefits for their retirement plan.


None of the public services is free, we do get something in return for our taxes considering the amount they take from us however the price is loss of sovereignty and reduction in freedom and distortion of economic incentives. The pensioner gets the free travel pass, however that cost is levied on the other users or the service and tax payers and as the demand rises for new "free" services so do the demands for new taxation revenue.


Ireland and other western countries work in a hampered market economy, it is why they have not gone bankrupt yet, they will eventually in the meantime the governments are hunting for new taxes, you have already been hit with USC, and since they have figured out how to monetise the air the carbon taxes keep rising. There is no balance in a centrally planned economy, they all go broke even monopolies go broke for the same reason they loose the connection between prices and availability of resources.

e: communisim

JohnMc1

Midlife wrote: »

So if i get this straight, any effort to bring in things like higher taxation, social safety nets, free college education, free healthcare.

There is no such thing as free. The Govt doesn't give anything to anyone with taking from somebody else [via taxes]

The Govt is full of people who never worked an actual day in their lives and only became a Politician because their Mommy or Daddy was one. They can't even balance their own accounts no less the Govts [Hell, the EU can't even get anybody to sign off on their budgets because they can't account for all the money that's gone. Yet they come here to look at ours]

We got better things to do with money than give it a corrupt govt that will waste it under the guise of "helping the less fortunate."

Midlife

JohnMc1 wrote: »

There is no such thing as free. The Govt doesn't give anything to anyone with taking from somebody else [via taxes]

The Govt is full of people who never worked an actual day in their lives and only became a Politician because their Mommy or Daddy was one. They can't even balance their own accounts no less the Govts [Hell, the EU can't even get anybody to sign off on their budgets because they can't account for all the money that's gone. Yet they come here to look at ours]

We got better things to do with money than give it a corrupt govt that will waste it under the guise of "helping the less fortunate."

f: government can't be trusted

I'll ask again....

I'm curious as to what the alternative solution to the huge inequality in the states is. I mean it's clearly driving such discontement that the country is tearing itself apart.

Anyone?

Pa ElGrande

Midlife wrote: »

I'll ask again....

I'm curious as to what the alternative solution to the huge inequality in the states is. I mean it's clearly driving such discontement that the country is tearing itself apart.

Anyone?

You will first have to define what you mean by inequality.

James Brown

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Socialism has always favored the top 1%.

Whereas the rigged 'free' market....?

gw80

Midlife wrote: »

JohnMc1 wrote: »

There is no such thing as free. The Govt doesn't give anything to anyone with taking from somebody else [via taxes]

The Govt is full of people who never worked an actual day in their lives and only became a Politician because their Mommy or Daddy was one. They can't even balance their own accounts no less the Govts [Hell, the EU can't even get anybody to sign off on their budgets because they can't account for all the money that's gone. Yet they come here to look at ours]

We got better things to do with money than give it a corrupt govt that will waste it under the guise of "helping the less fortunate."

f: government can't be trusted

I'll ask again....

I'm curious as to what the alternative solution to the huge inequality in the states is. I mean it's clearly driving such discontement that the country is tearing itself apart.

Anyone?

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Midlife wrote: »

I'll ask again....

I'm curious as to what the alternative solution to the huge inequality in the states is. I mean it's clearly driving such discontement that the country is tearing itself apart.

Anyone?

You will first have to define what you mean by inequality.

Facisim?

MrFresh

Nice to see all the old reliables out defending racism and trying to make a blatantly racist statement into a commentary on how bad the left is.

Tasfasdf

gw80 wrote: »

Facisim?

If your going to reply to all them post with one word at least spell it right.

Tasfasdf

MrFresh wrote: »

Nice to see all the old reliables out defending racism and trying to make a blatantly racist statement into a commentary on how bad the left is.

Wouldn't have to wait long till you arrived fresh to give the counter argument.

Billy Mays

Tasfasdf wrote: »

gw80 wrote: »

Facisim?

If your going to reply to all them post with one word at least spell it right.

*you're

MrFresh

Tasfasdf wrote: »

Wouldn't have to wait long till you arrived fresh to give the counter argument.

Argue what? You guys aren't interested in argument or debate, just a forum for your bigotry.

Eric Cartman

MrFresh wrote: »

Nice to see all the old reliables out defending racism and trying to make a blatantly racist statement into a commentary on how bad the left is.

sure unless you sell your 8 year old daughter to a 30 year old syrian migrant who's 16 on his asylum form, buy a house in donnybrook and make it a refugee centre, let the travellers steal all the copper in the house, pledge sworn allegiance to only vote for women forever and knock the jesus picture out of the frame with the little red light and put in a picture of AOC then youre a racist nowadays. Bonus points if you go absolutely retarded mental about anything donny t does beyond breathing.

Its like a constant penance, say a decade of pro marxist statements and condemn white men for everything or you get labelled the R word.