Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

Billy Mays

notobtuse wrote: »

You won’t get the kind of reply you want because your premise is wrong. Granted the tweet in question was stupid, jackassery even, but it wasn’t racist. It is not racist to tell people who have contempt for the US, and who abhor the common culture that makes us American, that they ought to go back to where they came from or go to places they seem to favor over America. Trump would have been better off saying what he really meant… If you hate it here so much, then leave for a place where you will feel all warm and fuzzy. It would have been a racist comment if her would have told The Squad that they don’t belong in our country because of their race or ethnic roots. But he didn’t do that, he attacked their radicalism. I understand most here won’t buy my response because of what so often seems to be a hair trigger to perceive racism. I wish Trump were a bit more eloquent with his attacks on the buffoonery and hatred of democrats like The Squad, as I believe his policy successes will be diminished by his personal flaws going into the 2020 election.

Remember when Trump favoured Putin over America's own security services?

You must've been really mad at that if you don't like American politicians who favour other countries over their own.

Something tells me you weren't though

notobtuse

Billy Mays wrote: »

Remember when Trump favoured Putin over America's own security services?

You must've been really mad at that if you don't like American politicians who favour other countries over their own.

Something tells me you weren't though

Trump never favored Putin over America's own security services. Trump was making a joke in asking Russia that if they already had Hillary’s emails that she destroyed illegally and of which were held on an illegal server. that we would like to see them as it was apparent (and now proven correct) that US law enforcement was doing everything in their power to ignore Clinton’s illegal actions and to protect her.

I do remember President Barack Obama was caught on camera assuring outgoing Russian President Dmitry Medvedev that he will have “more flexibility” to deal with contentious issues like missile defense after the US presidential election. And urging Moscow to give him “space” until after the November ballot, and Medvedev said he would relay the message to incoming Russian president Vladimir Putin. I’m sure you blasted Obama for favoring Russia over America… I just must have missed it.

Midlife

notobtuse wrote: »

You won’t get the kind of reply you want because your premise is wrong. Granted the tweet in question was stupid, jackassery even, but it wasn’t racist. It is not racist to tell people who have contempt for the US, and who abhor the common culture that makes us American, that they ought to go back to where they came from or go to places they seem to favor over America. Trump would have been better off saying what he really meant… If you hate it here so much, then leave for a place where you will feel all warm and fuzzy. It would have been a racist comment if her would have told The Squad that they don’t belong in our country because of their race or ethnic roots. But he didn’t do that, he attacked their radicalism. I understand most here won’t buy my response because of what so often seems to be a hair trigger to perceive racism. I wish Trump were a bit more eloquent with his attacks on the buffoonery and hatred of democrats like The Squad, as I believe his policy successes will be diminished by his personal flaws going into the 2020 election.

So in short, you're not going to answer the question because of a distinction you're making which has absolutely no impact on the question itself.

Additionally, my premise, that Trump was deliberatly stoking up racial tension to gain politically was not put forward by me. do you disagree with that?

I fear that there's a lot of short-sightedness on display. Yay Trump, screw the libs, socialism bad ... then what??? What type of country are you left with? What can you offer the millions who voted change for Obama, never got it and went for Trump?

Someone here said Venezuela is the fruition of AOC's plans (without offering any suggestion of any alternative means to relieve the economic stress on millions of regular people). I rather think Venezuela is what you get when you have to polarised halves of a country and a broken political system led by whoever the next strongman with a bit of charisma is. Keep your base happpy and the country can crumble around you for all it matters. You need to ask yourself what comes after Trump. What fills that vacuum? What happens to the split down the country that he's activley seeking to widen?

I don't have all the answers but I'm feeling more and more like this will be looked at as the era where it all went south for the US. Obviously, they won't (I think) end up in Venezuela's situation but I'm more speaking about the negatives of being a totally divided country.

Trump me be much better at being premier of China or something where he gets to unquestionably call the shots for a huge economy. He could evenbe great at that. But the US is a democracy and polarising the country leads to problems.

When disstening voices are told to get out of the country if they don't like it(which obviously was fine for Trump to say when he wasn't president), don't expect too much if they ever become the majority. They'll do whatever they want. if Trump loses this election AND the democrats take the senate (quite possible), they will unite, will go to town on their agenda and any republician dissent will be met with '**** you'.

It's not about leading any more, it's about winning.

Billy Mays

notobtuse wrote: »

Trump never favored Putin over America's own security services. Trump was making a joke in asking Russia that if they already had Hillary’s emails that she destroyed illegally and of which were held on an illegal server. that we would like to see them as it was apparent (and now proven correct) that US law enforcement was doing everything in their power to ignore Clinton’s illegal actions and to protect her.

I do remember President Barack Obama was caught on camera assuring outgoing Russian President Dmitry Medvedev that he will have “more flexibility” to deal with contentious issues like missile defense after the US presidential election. And urging Moscow to give him “space” until after the November ballot, and Medvedev said he would relay the message to incoming Russian president Vladimir Putin. I’m sure you blasted Obama for favoring Russia over America… I just must have missed it.

Yeah, see I wasn't talking about Hillary's emails. I was referring to Trump believing Putin over his own intelligence services regarding North Korea's missile capabilities.

He also dismissed his own intelligence services findings in regard to the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. He took Kim Jong Un at his word over the killing of Otto Warmbier in North Korea.

You're one of these people who will literally defend Trump over anything including racism. Exactly the type of person who Trump said would still support him even if he stood in the middle of 5th Avenue and shot someone.

notobtuse

Midlife wrote: »

So in short, you're not going to answer the question because of a distinction you're making which has absolutely no impact on the question itself.

Additionally, my premise, that Trump was deliberatly stoking up racial tension to gain politically was not put forward by me. do you disagree with that?

I answered the question. I can't help it if you didn't like the answer.

You might not have been the person here originally claiming Trump was stoking up racial tension, but from your post it appeared you supported that premise. If I'm wrong about that I stand corrected.

Midlife

notobtuse wrote: »

I answered the question. I can't help it if you didn't like the answer.

You might not have been the person here originally claiming Trump was stoking up racial tension, but from your post it appeared you supported that premise. If I'm wrong about that I stand corrected.

So you're saying Trump was just being a jackass, not racist and there was no plan?

Additionally, and I'm not trying to annoy here. You clearly have your own thought out opinions and express them well, I'm curious is you can tell me what the difference you feel is between Trumps pre-election cirticism of the US and the current criticism of the US from the congresswomen he was targetting.

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

Yeap, but this could work in Trump's favor.

It'll work with his base. It's whipping them up into a frenzy. He knows this. So it's a solid win there for him.

It will work with some swing voters in the rust belt. People who are easily swung by shouted slogans. So that's another small win.

It remains to be seen how effective it'll be overall though.

notobtuse

Midlife wrote: »

So you're saying Trump was just being a jackass, not racist and there was no plan?

Of course there was a plan... It could have been said differently and achieved the same results. And yes, Trump acted like a jackass, but he's not racist. Happy?

Midlife

notobtuse wrote: »

Of course there was a plan... It could have been said differently and achieved the same results. And yes, Trump acted like a jackass, but he's not racist. Happy?

What was the plan then? Genuinly curious for your interpretation.

I know this is boards but I come in peace and all that.

Sorry, popped in one more question in an edit too but you got there first.

Additionally, and I'm not trying to annoy here. You clearly have your own thought out opinions and express them well, I'm curious is you can tell me what the difference you feel is between Trumps pre-election cirticism of the US and the current criticism of the US from the congresswomen he was targetting.

notobtuse

Brian? wrote: »

It'll work with his base. It's whipping them up into a frenzy. He knows this. So it's a solid win there for him.

It will work with some swing voters in the rust belt. People who are easily swung by shouted slogans. So that's another small win.

It remains to be seen how effective it'll be overall though.

Democrats hate him. Republicans are coming around to loving him. In the end it will be the Independents who make the difference. But with Independents what seems to matter most is… 'It's The Economy, Stupid.’

notobtuse

Midlife wrote: »

What was the plan then? Genuinly curious for your interpretation.

I know this is boards but I come in peace and all that.

Sorry, popped in one more question in an edit too but you got there first.

The plan, IMO, was to keep The Squad, most of who have negative favorability ratings, in the news with their constant hateful opinions of the US and race bating.

I enjoy the debate. I would much rather debate people here from the left rather than merely agree with people on the right. Not a fan of all the personal attacks from the left. But when attacked, if you let it slide you show weakness.

I'm not aware of his pre-election criticism of the US other than his distaste for the wars we have gotten into, how Obama had fundamentally made the country worse, and other standard republican talking points. He campaigned on "Make America Great Again," not America is a hellhole. That's quite a difference.

Midlife

notobtuse wrote: »

The plan, IMO, was to keep The Squad, most of who have negative favorability ratings, in the news with there constant hateful opinions of the US and race bating.

I enjoy the debate. I would much rather debate people here from the left rather than merely agree with people on the right. Not a fan of all the personal attacks from the left. But when attacked, if you let it slide you show weakness.

I'm now aware of his pre-election criticism of the US other than his distaste for the wars we have gotten into, how Obama had fundamentally made the country worse, and other standard republican talking points. He campaigned on "Make America Great Again," not America is a hellhole. That's quite a difference.

Thanks. We disagree on things but conversation is good.

I'm curious what you think about Trump or others creating divisions for political gain. it doesn't really matter how you interpret his comments the other day, I think it's fair to say he's a divisive character.

Brian?

notobtuse wrote: »

Democrats hate him. Republicans are coming around to loving him. In the end it will be the Independents who make the difference. But with Independents what seems to matter most is… 'It's The Economy, Stupid.’

I'd say a lot of republicans detest the man, but will hold their nose and vote for anyone with an R beside their name. At least I hope that's the case, I may be overestimating them.

I still see a path to re-election for Trump if the economy doesn't collapse. It is heart breaking to admit.

Brian?

notobtuse wrote: »

The plan, IMO, was to keep The Squad, most of who have negative favorability ratings, in the news with their constant hateful opinions of the US and race bating.

I enjoy the debate. I would much rather debate people here from the left rather than merely agree with people on the right. Not a fan of all the personal attacks from the left. But when attacked, if you let it slide you show weakness.

I'm not aware of his pre-election criticism of the US other than his distaste for the wars we have gotten into, how Obama had fundamentally made the country worse, and other standard republican talking points. He campaigned on "Make America Great Again," not America is a hellhole. That's quite a difference.

Obama didn't make the country worse. He turned it around after 8 years of woeful mismanagement of the economy.

notobtuse

Midlife wrote: »

Thanks. We disagree on things but conversation is good.

I'm curious what you think about Trump or others creating divisions for political gain. it doesn't really matter how you interpret his comments the other day, I think it's fair to say he's a divisive character.

He is a divisive character... so was Obama, W, Clinton, Reagan, etc.

What do I think about creating divisions for political gain... American politics as usual.

Look at what the current crop of democrats running for POTUS are promising just to get elected... free this - free that, no border enforcement, favor illegals over US Citizens. None of it can actually be realized, but it will buy them votes from the uneducated and partisans.

notobtuse

Brian? wrote: »

Obama didn't make the country worse. He turned it around after 8 years of woeful mismanagement of the economy.

Seems we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

20Cent

SexBobomb wrote: »

False equivalence

Theoretically deporting someone (even though everyone knows they cant, they are American).
Killing Police Officers and Destabilising the country.

The exact same.

You don't seem to know what equivalence means.

20Cent

notobtuse wrote: »

Seems we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

It's demonstrably clear using facts and figures that he did. Facts don't care about your feelings.

Stop moaning ffs

notobtuse wrote: »

He is a divisive character... so was Obama, W, Clinton, Reagan, etc.

What do I think about creating divisions for political gain... American politics as usual.

Look at what the current crop of democrats running for POTUS are promising just to get elected... free this - free that, no border enforcement, favor illegals over US Citizens. None of it can actually be realized, but it will buy them votes from the uneducated and partisans.

You’ve just listed things trump is against. Not the policies of anyone running against him.
American republicans are idiots who vote for the scaremongering about immigrants coming to take everything and take over.
Not once wondering why they have no healthcare or no access to college cos both are astronomically unaffordable and every element of their daily lives being weaponised and monitsed for the benefit of corporate interests.

Americans are treated like mushrooms. Keep them in the dark and keep feeding them sh!t

To say otherwise it’s either lying or comically misguided.

notobtuse

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You’ve just listed things trump is against. Not the policies of anyone running against him.
American republicans are idiots who vote for the scaremongering about immigrants coming to take everything and take over.
Not once wondering why they have no healthcare or no access to college cos both are astronomically unaffordable and every element of their daily lives being weaponised and monitsed for the benefit of corporate interests.

Americans are treated like mushrooms. Keep them in the dark and keep feeding them sh!t

To say otherwise it’s either lying or comically misguided.

They're absolutely the policies of the democrats running for POTUS.

Outlaw Pete

Brian? wrote: »

Obama didn't make the country worse. He turned it around after 8 years of woeful mismanagement of the economy.

lol :P

Here's an article from just before Christmas in response to Obama saying the American economy was booming because of him:

Sorry Obama, But It's Trump's Economic Boom, Not Yours

Barack Obama is on the road attempting to claim credit for the booming economy under President Trump. But the only thing Obama deserves credit for is making it easy for Trump to undo Obama's anti-growth policies.

Let's see if we have this right.

For eight years, President Obama presided over the worst economic recovery in modern times. For six years, he blamed Republicans in Congress for thwarting his spending agenda and hampering growth. In his last two years in office, he claimed that 2% growth was the best we could hope for. And in his last year in office, while the economy was again stalling out, Obama claimed that Trump's tax cuts and deregulation would only make things worse.

But now that we're in the midst of a booming economy — which kicked in after Trump reversed almost all Obama's economic policies — we're supposed to believe that it's Obama who deserves all the credit.

Yep. That's precisely what Obama and his Amen Chorus in the press want us to believe.

In his speech in Illinois last Friday, Obama complained that Republicans were taking credit for his work.

"When you hear how great the economy's doing right now, let's just remember when this recovery started," he said. "I mean, I'm glad it's continued, but … suddenly Republicans are saying it's a miracle."

This week, White House Council of Economic Advisers Chairman Kevin Hassett wisely set the record straight. At a briefing on Monday, he noted that just about every important economic indicator showed the economy was stalling out in Obama's last year.

Hassett explained that small business optimism had been on the decline before the November 2016 election. The percentage of businesses saying it's a good time to expand was, too. Business investment was stagnant. All those turned upward starting in 2017. Applications for new businesses are now well above the trend over Obama's entire second term, Hassett noted. And blue-collar jobs are growing faster than any time since the Reagan administration.

There's more. The rate of GDP growth was decelerating in Obama's last year. It went from 2.3% in Q2, to 1.9% in Q3 to 1.8% in Q4 of 2016. Under Trump, GDP growth has averaged 2.9%. It was 4.2% last quarter and might be higher in the current one.

The stock market also was stuck in neutral the year before the November 2016 elections. The Dow is up by some 45% since then.

Real median family income didn't budge from August 2015 to November 2016, according to Sentier Research. It's up more than 4% since Trump came into office. Wages are on the upswing.

In Obama's last year, unemployment rate remained basically unchanged — it was 4.9% in Jan 2016, and 4.8% when Trump took office in Jan. 2017. Now it's down to 3.9%

We could go on.

Meanwhile, the same reporters now patting Obama on the back for today's strong economy were reporting in late 2016 about how — as The New York Times put it — "the underlying reality of low growth will haunt whoever wins the White House."

Still not convinced Trump deserves credit for the current booming economy? Consider that a survey of 68 business, financial and academic economists by The Wall Street Journal at the start of this year found that most believed Trump's policies would boost the economy, while the same group had said Obama's policies were a drag on long-term growth. Ninety percent said Trump's tax cuts would accelerate growth.

It is what the left would, in another context, call a "scientific consensus."

Yet to listen to liberal activists and the ideological press and you'd think that Trump was crazy for claiming credit for today's growth. "The economic expansion we're enjoying today was set in motion under Obama," insists Slate's Jordan Weissmann.

Doesn't this make people like Obama and Weissmann "economy deniers?"

Even if some of the nonsense from those suggesting things were on the up at the end of Obama's eight year regime was (for argument's sake at least) conceded, that still wouldn't rationalise the crediting of the current American boom to him. It's as if those that hate Trump can't bear the thought that he could possibly be making decisions which are positively benefiting the American economy.

_blaaz

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

lol :P

Here's an article from just before Christmas in response to Obama saying the American economy was booming because of him:



Even if some of the nonsense from those suggesting things were on the up at the end of Obama's eight year regime was (for argument's sake at least) conceded, that still wouldn't rationalise the crediting of the current American boom to him. It's as if those that hate Trump can't bear the thought that he could possibly be making decisions which are positively benefiting the American economy.

Im not fully up to speed on this.....but isnt trump running an eye watering and unsustainable deficit??(this may be going on longer than him tbf)

Which will ultimately lead to a collaspe?

Stop moaning ffs

notobtuse wrote: »

They're absolutely the policies of the democrats running for POTUS.

Access to affordable healthcare and affordable education and in one case, drinkable running water.

Those poor billionaires

Imagine the horror they must be going through thinking about the taxes they don’t even pay going towards such things.

Shudder to think

Midlife

Brian? wrote: »

Obama didn't make the country worse. He turned it around after 8 years of woeful mismanagement of the economy.

I think presidents have remarkably little to do with the economy to be honest. It's standard capitalism swings and roundabouts, peaks and troughs.

Everyone will claim victory where possible and blame the opponent where possible but ultimatly it just trundles on.

Obama did what was deemed necessary at the time, secured some republician votes to pass a recovery package. Trump passed the tax cut that any republician would have passed.

The upsurge wasn't all due to obama, the downsurge wasn't all due to GWB. If the economy tanks, it won't be all Trump's fault.

Brian?

notobtuse wrote: »

Seems we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

Why? Can you not demonstrate how Obama made the US A worse place to live?

notobtuse

Brian? wrote: »

Why? Can you not demonstrate how Obama made the US A worse place to live?

He made race relations in the US far worse.
He lied about controlling health care costs and bringing Americans better insurance coverage to get Obamacare passed... Neither claim was true.
He weaponized the federal government, like the IRS, to target his political enemies.
He increased the national debt by $9 Trillion and had the worst economic recovery to show for it.
Regulations he put forth were job killers at a time unemployment was high.
He turned the government into a surveillance state.
And it looks like he might just be up to his eyeballs in illegal actions taken against Trump in the campaign and the attempts to destroy his presidency after he was elected.

There’s a lot more of this, but I suspect it doesn't mean much unless people are open to the truth about the man that should be labeled the worst president in US history.

20Cent

Honestly can't tell if they are genuine trump supporters, dumb or taking the p1ss anymore.

notobtuse

20Cent wrote: »

Honestly can't tell if they are genuine trump supporters, dumb or taking the p1ss anymore.

Alinsky's Rules for Radicals…

5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon."

Billy Mays

20Cent wrote: »

Honestly can't tell if they are genuine trump supporters, dumb or taking the p1ss anymore.

Obama made race relations in America far worse by being elected

Odhinn

Billy Mays wrote: »

Obama made race relations in America far worse by being elected

Only way it could have been worse is if he was a she and afro-american.