Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

Yer Da sells Avon

notobtuse wrote: »

He made race relations in the US far worse.
He lied about controlling health care costs and bringing Americans better insurance coverage to get Obamacare passed... Neither claim was true.
He weaponized the federal government, like the IRS, to target his political enemies.
He increased the national debt by $9 Trillion and had the worst economic recovery to show for it.
Regulations he put forth were job killers at a time unemployment was high.
He turned the government into a surveillance state.
And it looks like he might just be up to his eyeballs in illegal actions taken against Trump in the campaign and the attempts to destroy his presidency after he was elected.

There’s a lot more of this, but I suspect it doesn't mean much unless people are open to the truth about the man that should be labeled the worst president in US history.

I'm no fan of Obama, but it looks very much like you haphazardly cut 'n pasted some random lines from some Conservative blog there. Can you be more specific about how he 'made race relations worse'? How he turned the government into a surveillance state (sic)? In what way did he 'weaponise' the revenue service?

I don't see any evidence that he did anything a whole lot differently than any of his predecessors, tbh.

20Cent

Seems Trump is disavowing the send her back chant now and that he disagrees with it. Bummer for his supporters who have been justifying it for the last 24 hours. One if the problems with being a trump supporter is he lies so much it's hard to keep up.

MrFresh

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Says the guy who has 4 posts in this thread, all of which are just to insult and call other posters names for simply holding a different from him. To virtue signal how great and tolerant he is. :rolleyes:

Not for simply being of a different opinion, for being racist. I never claimed I was tolerant of racism either.

Tasfasdf wrote: »

Yeah its ironic considering he said in one of his posts how only the alt right do that. Guess he as putting himself in that group.

Which post did I say that in?

notobtuse wrote: »

You won’t get the kind of reply you want because your premise is wrong. Granted the tweet in question was stupid, jackassery even, but it wasn’t racist. It is not racist to tell people who have contempt for the US, and who abhor the common culture that makes us American, that they ought to go back to where they came from or go to places they seem to favor over America. Trump would have been better off saying what he really meant… If you hate it here so much, then leave for a place where you will feel all warm and fuzzy. It would have been a racist comment if her would have told The Squad that they don’t belong in our country because of their race or ethnic roots. But he didn’t do that, he attacked their radicalism. I understand most here won’t buy my response because of what so often seems to be a hair trigger to perceive racism. I wish Trump were a bit more eloquent with his attacks on the buffoonery and hatred of democrats like The Squad, as I believe his policy successes will be diminished by his personal flaws going into the 2020 election.

He told four people of colour to go back to the countries they came from. Three of them were from the US and one has been in the US most of her life and is a US citizen. This is absolutely racist. He specifically said they were from other countries. He did this because of their ethnicity and race. Did you even read the Tweets?



What's interesting about the "send her back" chant is that it completely destroys the long standing claim that Trump wasn't against immigration, just illegal immigration. Now here he and his supporters are attacking a completely legal immigrant who has lived her life well and become a congresswoman.

Sweetemotion

MrFresh wrote: »

Not for simply being of a different opinion, for being racist. I never claimed I was tolerant of racism either.

Good man, keep up the great work. Sure you're just fantastic.

Brian?

notobtuse wrote: »

He made race relations in the US far worse.

How? There was a bigoted back lash, but that can't be laid at his feet.

He lied about controlling health care costs and bringing Americans better insurance coverage to get Obamacare passed... Neither claim was true.

He didn't lie. He tried to implement a free market solution that turned out to be not very good. It was better than doing nothing, which is what the GOP wanted to do.

He weaponized the federal government, like the IRS, to target his political enemies.
He increased the national debt by $9 Trillion and had the worst economic recovery to show for it.
Regulations he put forth were job killers at a time unemployment was high.
He turned the government into a surveillance state.
And it looks like he might just be up to his eyeballs in illegal actions taken against Trump in the campaign and the attempts to destroy his presidency after he was elected.

There’s a lot more of this, but I suspect it doesn't mean much unless people are open to the truth about the man that should be labeled the worst president in US history.

The 9 trillion I debt. I'll give you that. But it was to spend out of the worst recession in almost a century.

The rest is either a lie or an extremely skewed view of reality.

I'm his 8 years unemployment fell dramatically. How exactly were the regulations job killers? How did he weaponise the IRS, turn the US into a surveillance state? What illegal actions did he take against the Trump campaign.

Midlife

notobtuse wrote: »

He made race relations in the US far worse.
He lied about controlling health care costs and bringing Americans better insurance coverage to get Obamacare passed... Neither claim was true.
He weaponized the federal government, like the IRS, to target his political enemies.
He increased the national debt by $9 Trillion and had the worst economic recovery to show for it.
Regulations he put forth were job killers at a time unemployment was high.
He turned the government into a surveillance state.
And it looks like he might just be up to his eyeballs in illegal actions taken against Trump in the campaign and the attempts to destroy his presidency after he was elected.

There’s a lot more of this, but I suspect it doesn't mean much unless people are open to the truth about the man that should be labeled the worst president in US history.

The problem I have notobtuse, and I don't mean this personally but when you criticise Obama for worsening race relations, lying about healthcare solutions and increasing the national debt but then support Trump who is doing exactly those things, llike exactly those, it's hard to accept the rest of your anti-obama argument.

I don't think you're being entirely honest in your assessment of either character.

If it was wrong for Obama to do these things that you've mentioned, then you need to hold Trump to account for it too. Similarly,if it's OK for Trump, then you can't cirticise Obama for it.

Sweetemotion

Obama promised change and changed nothing. The people wanted change and voted Trump. You can thank Obama for Trump.

20Cent

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Obama promised change and changed nothing. The people wanted change and voted Trump. You can thank Obama for Trump.

Even trump is the black guy Obama's fault.

hetuzozaho

Midlife wrote: »

The problem I have notobtuse, and I don't mean this personally but when you criticise Obama for worsening race relations, lying about healthcare solutions and increasing the national debt but then support Trump who is doing exactly those things, llike exactly those, it's hard to accept the rest of your anti-obama argument.

I don't think you're being entirely honest in your assessment of either character.

If it was wrong for Obama to do these things that you've mentioned, then you need to hold Trump to account for it too. Similarly,if it's OK for Trump, then you can't cirticise Obama for it.

That's politics in a nutshell thought is it not. People pick a side and away they go. It's seldom you find an honest discussion. (I know you are trying)

Left or Right. United or Liverpool

notobtuse

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

I'm no fan of Obama, but it looks very much like you haphazardly cut 'n pasted some random lines from some Conservative blog there. Can you be more specific about how he 'made race relations worse'? How he turned the government into a surveillance state (sic)? In what way did he 'weaponise' the revenue service?

I don't see any evidence that he did anything a whole lot differently than any of his predecessors, tbh.

I lived it.

The New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case and its dismissal, Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., Trayvon Martin… look them up. Obama and those he appointed to his administration continuously said America was a deeply racist country, despite being the first black elected president. He used the White House to introduce a new era of racial grievance into our national discourse. His administration saw discrimination in so many places that a new standard was created for what now constitutes racism. He fostered that divide and is responsible for what we see today… Racism in anything and everything (a MAGA hat is racist?... give me a break). It’s no wonder that by the end of his administration Americans were more deeply divided on race than they had been in decades.

The Obama administration argued in federal court that the public has no “reasonable expectation of privacy” regarding their cell phone location data and that the government can obtain these records without a warrant. He green-lighted a giant government database of information on millions of citizens who weren’t even suspected of terrorism or any crime at all. And it was discovered Obama’s National Security Agency had been conducting illegal searches on Americans for years.

I was a member of the Tea Party back in the day. Over a 2 period leading up to the 2012 election tea party groups and other conservative groups were improperly scrutinized by the IRS and denied tax exempt status. 12 different IRS offices across the country were involved and the entire operation was orchestrated out of Washington, DC. There was evidence of White House involvement. In addition, the IRS also targeted private individuals critical of Obama, GOP candidates, and Romney donors.

Good enough?

Sweetemotion

20Cent wrote: »

Even trump is the black guy Obama's fault.

See this is the problem with you, all you have to arm yourself is to call people racist and therefore you see racism everywhere even when there is none to be seen.

Those same voters who voted for Trump to be president also voted for Obama.

20Cent

Sweetemotion wrote: »

See this is the problem with you, all you have to arm yourself is to call people racist and therefore you see racism everywhere even when there is none to be seen.

Those same voters who voted for Trump to be president also voted for Obama.

Not really according to statistics but sher what does truth even mean anymore.

notobtuse

Brian? wrote: »

How? There was a bigoted back lash, but that can't be laid at his feet.

Bigoted backlash? He was elected president of the US!

He didn't lie. He tried to implement a free market solution that turned out to be not very good. It was better than doing nothing, which is what the GOP wanted to do.

Massachusetts Institute of Technology Professor Jonathan Gruber, the architect of the federal healthcare law, said that a "lack of transparency" and the "stupidity of the American voter" helped Congress approve ObamaCare.

You don’t have to believe me… hear it directly from him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6wljfbRaDM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEjr9WchNkg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adrdmmh7bMo

Sweetemotion

20Cent wrote: »

Not really according to statistics but sher what does truth even mean anymore.

Florida, Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and even Michigan would disagree with you.

20Cent

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Florida, Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and even Michigan would disagree with you.

More people voted for HC than trump or Obama. Facts don't care about your feelings.

Sweetemotion

20Cent wrote: »

More people voted for HC than trump or Obama. Facts don't care about your feelings.

My feelings aren't hurt. Why would they be?

I'm not the one seeing Nazi's everywhere and calling everyone who disagrees with me racist.

20Cent

Trump supporters must be feeling betrayed today after trump throwing them under the bus. Even he says he was disgusted by them. Sound like he agrees with HC about the deplorables.

Woodsie1

20Cent wrote: »

Trump supporters must be feeling betrayed today after trump throwing them under the bus. Even he says he was disgusted by them. Sound like he agrees with HC about the deplorables.

Clutching at straws now:D

Sweetemotion

Woodsie1 wrote: »

Clutching at straws now:D

Careful now, or he'll be giving you a slap.

Woodsie1

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Careful now, or he'll be giving you a slap.

I doubt it,no slapping emoji on boards.ie.

VicMackey1

rossie1977 wrote: »

Democratic party did not create KKK. Anyway the Democratic party (and Republican one for that matter) are vastly different from the parties of the 1860s. Some southern Republicans today proudly display the Confederate flag while claiming to be the party of Lincoln which makes no sense given the Confederacy went to war against Lincoln.

The Democrats (the party of slavery) have, from the very beginning been heavily involved with the kkk. This LINK names political figures who were members of the kkk. Out of the 19 listed, 16 were Democrats and 2 were Republicans! Robert Byrd was a Democratic Senator until 2010, he was also a former member of the kkk.

Of course, political parties will change their stance and policies over time but the Republicans never changed their stance on slavery. They were always anti-slavery and opposed to segregation. The supposed party flip is thought to have happened around the early 1900s but the voting on the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would show this is not true.
69% Senate Democrats vs 82% Senate Republicans voted for
61% House Democrats vs 80% House Republicans voted for
The figures dont lie. There was also the failed filibuster attempt from 5 Democrat Senators!

As for the current Democrats, they claim racism is around every corner and anyone who disagrees is a bigot or a white supremacist. Nancy Pelosi is apparently a sexist racist according to AOC. What a joke, when in fact AOC and the other members of "the squad" are the most obvious racists in Congress at the moment.

20Cent

They are chanting send her home at presidential rallies not sure how much more evidence one needs to see the Republican party is a racist party under its current leader.

Midlife

20Cent wrote: »

They are chanting send her home at presidential rallies not sure how much more evidence one needs to see the Republican party is a racist party under its current leader.

Evidence doesn't come into it to be honest.


I've tried to engage with logical debate but it seem that much of what's going on involves believing the following,

Trumps racist tendancies and utterances aren't racist. The four congresswomen are racist for what they say.

When Trump says America is broken we need to fix it that's fine, when someone else says it, you're entitled to tell them to go back home.

Obama's defecit is a flaw, Trump's defecit is fine.

Obama's false promises of healthcare were a flaw, Trump's again fine.

Obama stoked race relations, but the current administration don't get any cirticism in this regard.

Obama's stock market rises, don't count. Trump's do.

It seems to me that there are many logical inconsistencies being posted here that people are avoiding facing up to.

Seanachai

VicMackey1 wrote: »

The Democrats (the party of slavery) have, from the very beginning been heavily involved with the kkk. This LINK names political figures who were members of the kkk. Out of the 19 listed, 16 were Democrats and 2 were Republicans! Robert Byrd was a Democratic Senator until 2010, he was also a former member of the kkk.

Of course, political parties will change their stance and policies over time but the Republicans never changed their stance on slavery. They were always anti-slavery and opposed to segregation. The supposed party flip is thought to have happened around the early 1900s but the voting on the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would show this is not true.
69% Senate Democrats vs 82% Senate Republicans voted for
61% House Democrats vs 80% House Republicans voted for
The figures dont lie. There was also the failed filibuster attempt from 5 Democrat Senators!

As for the current Democrats, they claim racism is around every corner and anyone who disagrees is a bigot or a white supremacist. Nancy Pelosi is apparently a sexist racist according to AOC. What a joke, when in fact AOC and the other members of "the squad" are the most obvious racists in Congress at the moment.

We're conditioned here to see Republicans as the bad guys, at least when I was growing up JFK was second only to JC for wall space. All the relatives from the US were democrats and they were on the side of right, republicans were portrayed as sinister guys doing shady oil deals while drinking bourbon and smoking cigars.

rossie1977

VicMackey1 wrote: »

The Democrats (the party of slavery) have, from the very beginning been heavily involved with the kkk. This LINK names political figures who were members of the kkk. Out of the 19 listed, 16 were Democrats and 2 were Republicans! Robert Byrd was a Democratic Senator until 2010, he was also a former member of the kkk.

There was massive disconnect between northern and southern politicians in the mid 1800s. You said the Democratic party created the KKK which is not correct.

KKK was started by a number of ex Confederate officers after the civil war.

Of course, political parties will change their stance and policies over time but the Republicans never changed their stance on slavery. They were always anti-slavery and opposed to segregation. The supposed party flip is thought to have happened around the early 1900s but the voting on the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would show this is not true.
69% Senate Democrats vs 82% Senate Republicans voted for
61% House Democrats vs 80% House Republicans voted for
The figures dont lie. There was also the failed filibuster attempt from 5 Democrat Senators!

Civil Rights act was brought about because of Democratic Presidents, first Kennedy then LBJ.

The south was still deeply divided in early 60s. In 1964 election Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina all flipped to Republican from 1960 despite LBJ winning in landslide.

As for the current Democrats, they claim racism is around every corner and anyone who disagrees is a bigot or a white supremacist. Nancy Pelosi is apparently a sexist racist according to AOC. What a joke, when in fact AOC and the other members of "the squad" are the most obvious racists in Congress at the moment.

Not correct, she never claimed Pelosi was racist

Asked if she thinks Pelosi has racial animus or is racist, Ocasio-Cortez said unequivocally, "No, no, absolutely not, absolutely not."

notobtuse

Brian? wrote: »

How?The 9 trillion I debt. I'll give you that. But it was to spend out of the worst recession in almost a century.

The rest is either a lie or an extremely skewed view of reality.

I'm his 8 years unemployment fell dramatically. How exactly were the regulations job killers? How did he weaponise the IRS, turn the US into a surveillance state? What illegal actions did he take against the Trump campaign.

Forgot to address two points of yours that was not already addressed by me.

Yes Obama did spend and spend and spend. Most of it I seemingly went to his pet projects and cronies. Not much to show for it, IMO. Obama said manufacturing in the US was basically not coming back and 2% growth was the best we could hope for. The economy was again stalling out at the end of his reign. Seems all he really had to do is what Trump did to jump start the economy... Get rid of job killing regulations and institute tax cuts, and we get a booming economy, growth in stocks, and historical low unemployment rates. Sure would have cost us at lot less than $9 Trillion.

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/obama-trump-booming-economy/

-

The bogus collusion probe of Trump’s campaign was begun by the Obama-era FBI and Department of Justice, led respectively by James Comey and Loretta Lynch, and by U.S. intelligence agencies, working with their foreign counterparts. We now illegalities were committed regarding the FISA application and Comey illegally giving information to the press. Expect criminal referrals when DOJ Barr concludes his investigation into the illegalities involving the spying on Trump. Text messages between two key figures in the Comey FBI, Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, say it goes very high. An August 2016 message from Strzok tells Page that “the White House is running this.”

notobtuse

20Cent wrote: »

More people voted for HC than trump or Obama. Facts don't care about your feelings.

Fact is that means nothing. Both campaigns ran on winning the electoral votes as that is what determines who becomes president… not majority votes. And since the candidates did not run their campaigns with the intention of getting majority votes we don’t know what would have been the outcome if they concentrated on majority votes.

20Cent

notobtuse wrote: »

Fact is that means nothing. Both campaigns ran on winning the electoral votes as that is what determines who becomes president… not majority votes. And since the candidates did not run their campaigns with the intention of getting majority votes we don’t know what would have been the outcome if they concentrated on majority votes.

The post was a reply to the contention that democratic party voters were so dissapointed with Obama that they voted for trump. There is no evidence for this.

JohnMc1

Seanachai wrote: »

We're conditioned here to see Republicans as the bad guys, at least when I was growing up JFK was second only to JC for wall space. All the relatives from the US were democrats and they were on the side of right, republicans were portrayed as sinister guys doing shady oil deals while drinking bourbon and smoking cigars.

JFK is a Republican by today's Democrat standards.

Mongfinder General

VicMackey1 wrote: »

The Democrats (the party of slavery) have, from the very beginning been heavily involved with the kkk. This LINK names political figures who were members of the kkk. Out of the 19 listed, 16 were Democrats and 2 were Republicans! Robert Byrd was a Democratic Senator until 2010, he was also a former member of the kkk.

Of course, political parties will change their stance and policies over time but the Republicans never changed their stance on slavery. They were always anti-slavery and opposed to segregation. The supposed party flip is thought to have happened around the early 1900s but the voting on the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would show this is not true.
69% Senate Democrats vs 82% Senate Republicans voted for
61% House Democrats vs 80% House Republicans voted for
The figures dont lie. There was also the failed filibuster attempt from 5 Democrat Senators!

As for the current Democrats, they claim racism is around every corner and anyone who disagrees is a bigot or a white supremacist. Nancy Pelosi is apparently a sexist racist according to AOC. What a joke, when in fact AOC and the other members of "the squad" are the most obvious racists in Congress at the moment.

You're god dam right. At last some real facts have been posted.