Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

klaaaz

notobtuse wrote: »

Bullcrap. By your thinking the El Paso shooter wanted universal healthcare and a guaranteed income therefore making him a member of the left. But it's just as wrong and none of that matters… Bottom line is both shooters were crazy and their threat to society was known before the killings occurred, but because we continue to focus only on ineffective gun control measures they will continue.

Dayton shooter hated women, typical misogyny of the conservative types.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/05/us/connor-betts-dayton-shooting-profile/index.html

p1akuw47h5r3it

Brian? wrote: »

I’ve explained this over and over again. I am anti Fascist so I support the stated goal of opposing fascism.

Apologies if you have, but the thread is huge I can't go reading all 190 plus posts. I'm anti fascist too, same as I'm anti-communist, anti white nationalism etc. As are most people.

Brian? wrote: »

I draw the line at violence though. If they commit violent acts they should be arrested and punished.

Brian? wrote: »

It’s perfectly logical to hold both opinions.

Yes but supporting an organisation, even if not a cohesive one, who exist solely to resist fascism by militant means, is illogical if you view violence as being wrong. Do you honest belive that the average person in America isn't opposed to fascism?

Brian? wrote: »

I’ve also explained that Antifa is not a cohesive organisation. It’s not a single unified entity. It’s a broad coalition. So I can’t really condemn Antifa outright.

Seemingly a broad coalition of left-wing extremists out to have a riot with the police and any group that they claim to not like. Can you point me towards the peaceful anti-fa?

Brian? wrote: »

Up until now, the violence perpetrated by Antifa has been a low level threat, way overstated by the right.

So you admit it's violent at least.

Brian? wrote: »

Now, Antifa need to do something. I want prominent members to come out and utterly condemn this shooting and do
Something to prevent a repeat. If they don’t, I won’t defend them anymore.

Why, if so against violence, would you want to associate or defend such a group that quite clearly engages in violence, regardless of whether the level has been overstated?

You can oppose fascism by joining more or less any mainstream political party.

lawlolawl

klaaaz wrote: »

Dayton shooter hated women, typical misogyny of the conservative types.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/05/us/connor-betts-dayton-shooting-profile/index.html

Stereotyping now, are we?

Tut tut.

Brian?

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Apologies if you have, but the thread is huge I can't go reading all 190 plus posts. I'm anti fascist too, same as I'm anti-communist, anti white nationalism etc. As are most people.



Yes but supporting an organisation, even if not a cohesive one, who exist solely to resist fascism by militant means, is illogical if you view violence as being wrong. Do you honest belive that the average person in America isn't opposed to fascism?


Seemingly a broad coalition of left-wing extremists out to have a riot with the police and any group that they claim to not like. Can you point me towards the peaceful anti-fa?


So you admit it's violent at least.


Why, if so against violence, would you want to associate or defend such a group that quite clearly engages in violence, regardless of whether the level has been overstated?

You can oppose fascism by joining more or less any mainstream political party.

I’ll sum this up as succinctly as I can.

I believe until now the threat of violence from Antifa has been over stated, almost to hysterical proportions. So I come on here to point his out. I’m Unable to allow the hysteria go unchallenged.

There are posters here who actually support groups like the Proud Boys while criticising Antifa. I feel it’s important to also point out this hypocrisy.

notobtuse

klaaaz wrote: »

Dayton shooter hated women, typical misogyny of the conservative types.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/05/us/connor-betts-dayton-shooting-profile/index.html

It's appears you might be getting your information of what conservative types are like from the inside of a bubble gum wrapper.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Billy Mays wrote: »

What has him being a registered democrat got to do with him carrying out the shooting?

snowblind wrote: »

White supremacist mass shooting yesterday in Texas targeting latin americans: 20 dead
Mass shooting today: we'll see if it fits the pattern. There is only one pattern though
Antifa: still no threat to life

I think we can all agree that White-nationalists tend not to be registered Democrats (in this day and age anyway;) ), thus this shooting doesn't "fit the pattern".

The poster was trying to claim that anti-fa pose no threat. Considering the shooter in this case was a big Anti-fa fan, who viewed William Van Spronson (a anti-fa member who tried to fire bomb an ICE detention centre) as a "martyr", the claim that Anti-fa pose "no threat to life" is a spurious one at best.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Brian? wrote: »

I’ll sum this up as succinctly as I can.

I believe until now the threat of violence from Antifa has been over stated, almost to hysterical proportions. So I come on here to point his out. I’m Unable to allow the hysteria go unchallenged.

There are posters here who actually support groups like the Proud Boys while criticising Antifa. I feel it’s important to also point out this hypocrisy.

I support neither, and would say you are just as hypocritical as those proud boy supporters, hating them but supporting Anti-fa.

Supporters who I'd imagine would like-wise claim the negative coverage of their group has been hysterical.

klaaaz

lawlolawl wrote: »

Stereotyping now, are we?

Tut tut.

notobtuse wrote: »

It's appears you might be getting your information of what conservative types are like from the inside of a bubble gum wrapper.

Ultra conservatives in USA states have passed the most restrictive anti-abortion laws in the world on a par with Saudi Arabia. Women who are raped no matter what age are forbidden from having an abortion, women are treated as 2nd class citizens with no bodily autonomy just like in the Republic of Gilead.

ILoveYourVibes

The sinn fein shop sells antifa merch or it used to.

notobtuse

Brian? wrote: »

I kind of agree. Except to describe both shooter as crazy almost excuses them morally. They needed help and didn’t get it. There is something broken in US society, way beyond left/right politics and gun control.

To simply say they were crazy means no one will actually ge to the root cause of why they did what they did.

Unfortunately, most of the discussion this week will be focused on gun control. And it will be little more than symbolic and entirely irrelevant. Banning AR15's... or not... people who wish to wreak havoc will have no trouble getting the weapons to do so. FACT! We've already seen that in urban cities across America in such places like Baltimore, Chicago, and Detroit that have some of the most stringent gun laws, yet still have seen catastrophic gun violence. Almost all these mass murderers are have been classified as mentally ill, and their hatred often displayed openly in public beforehand, but only rarely have been stopped in advance. Unfortunately, law enforcement agencies, school administrators, other authorities, family members and friends have been reluctant to take action to prevent the disturbed from acting out their anger for fear of repercussions to themselves. We are going to have to learn to deal with violent mental illness, more so than gun control, unless we want these events to be the new normal.

p1akuw47h5r3it

klaaaz wrote: »

Ultra conservatives in USA states have passed the most restrictive anti-abortion laws in the world on a par with Saudi Arabia. Women who are raped no matter what age are forbidden from having an abortion, women are treated as 2nd class citizens with no bodily autonomy just like in the Republic of Gilead.

Give us a break. I'm pro choice but trying to claim that these abortion laws are akin to having women being legally raped en-masse is hyperbolic nonsense.

biko

klaaaz wrote: »

He killed 6 blacks and hates women, sounds like a member of the right.

Maybe you should consider the sexism and racism of the left?
It's not exclusive, everyone can join in.

klaaaz

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Give us a break. I'm pro choice but trying to claim that these abortion laws are akin to having women being legally raped en-masse is hyperbolic nonsense.

You'd want to catch up on the news stateside. A few states in recent months have indeed passed such laws against women, the vast majority of the lawmakers being male.

As you say you're pro-choice, where was your outrage in defence of women? Or is it only outrage when conservatives are criticised?

Billy Mays

notobtuse wrote: »

Unfortunately, most of the discussion this week will be focused on gun control. And it will be little more than symbolic and entirely irrelevant. Banning AR15's... or not... people who wish to wreak havoc will have no trouble getting the weapons to do so. FACT! We've already seen that in urban cities across America in such places like Baltimore, Chicago, and Detroit that have some of the most stringent gun laws, yet still have seen catastrophic gun violence. Almost all these mass murderers are have been classified as mentally ill, and their hatred often displayed openly in public beforehand, but only rarely have been stopped in advance. Unfortunately, law enforcement agencies, school administrators, other authorities, family members and friends have been reluctant to take action to prevent the disturbed from acting out their anger for fear of repercussions to themselves. We are going to have to learn to deal with violent mental illness, more so than gun control, unless we want these events to be the new normal.

you want to arm teachers?

p1akuw47h5r3it

klaaaz wrote: »

You'd want to catch up on the news stateside. A few states in recent months have indeed passed such laws against women, the vast majority of the lawmakers being male.

Maybe I do. What laws have been passed that allow women to be raped en-masse such as in the Handmaids Tale?

klaaaz wrote: »

As you say you're pro-choice, where was your outrage in defence of women? Or is it only outrage when conservatives are criticised?

Ahh Klaaaz, I don't get outraged, I'm not you. And btw, I'm not a conservative either

Midlife

I'm curious.

Can people who so confidantly say 'gun control won't work' maybe put a figure on how many people would have to die before they TRIED gun control.

5,000? 10,000?

I mean at what point is it worth trying?

p1akuw47h5r3it

Midlife wrote: »

I'm curious.

Can people who so confidantly say 'gun control won't work' maybe put a figure on how many people would have to die before they TRIED gun control.

5,000? 10,000?

I mean at what point is it worth trying?

It's been said by others and is true. If Sandy Hook won't change anything it's hard to imagine what will.

notobtuse

Billy Mays wrote: »

you want to arm teachers?

With proper psychology checks, background checks, firearms training and active shooter training, and for those who wish to take on the responsibility… YES! And before you accuse me of being the devil... I had a daughter caught up in an active shooter situation at her school (no security on site at the time). The police were no nonsense during the event and scared the hell out of the students... so they came back several days later to show the students another side of law enforcement than the one they saw days before.

notobtuse

Midlife wrote: »

I'm curious.

Can people who so confidantly say 'gun control won't work' maybe put a figure on how many people would have to die before they TRIED gun control.

5,000? 10,000?

I mean at what point is it worth trying?

We already have over 20,000 different gun control laws... federal, state and local. Some of the worst gun death areas in the country are urban areas that have the strictest gun control laws on the books.

Midlife

notobtuse wrote: »

We already have over 20,000 different gun control laws... federal, state and local. Some of the worst gun death areas in the country are urban areas that have the strictest gun control laws on the books.

In fairness, that's being obtuse.

klaaaz

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Maybe I do. What laws have been passed that allow women to be raped en-masse such as in the Handmaids Tale?

Ahh Klaaaz, I don't get outraged, I'm not you. And btw, I'm not a conservative either

For one that happily quotes conservative web links and yet denies anything about the recent anti-abortion laws enacted by conservatives, your credibility is in tatters.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/16/politics/states-abortion-laws/index.html

On May 14, Alabama legislators passed a bill banning abortions with very limited exceptions: "to avoid a serious health risk to the unborn child's mother," if the "unborn child has a lethal anomaly" and if the woman has an ectopic pregnancy.
An amendment to exempt rape and incest victims failed to pass. The law calls for doctors who perform abortions to be treated as felons and face up to 99 years in prison.
Republican Gov. Kay Ivey signed it into law on May 15, saying the law "stands as a powerful testament to Alabamians' deeply held belief that every life is precious and that every life is a sacred gift from God.

notobtuse

Midlife wrote: »

In fairness, that's being obtuse.

In fairness, you're wrong. How is pointing out we already have many gun control laws and cities that have the strictest gun control often have the largest gun deaths be obtuse... and that perhaps focusing on mental illness might be a more prudent method of dealing with this type of thing rather more gun control measures that will only negatively affect law-abiding citizens as those who don't give a sh!t about the laws will still kill?

Brian?

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I support neither, and would say you are just as hypocritical as those proud boy supporters, hating them but supporting Anti-fa.

Supporters who I'd imagine would like-wise claim the negative coverage of their group has been hysterical.

Is saying “actually Antifa aren’t as bad as they’re made out to be” supporting them?

Again, I support the underlying ideal of anti fascism.

The Proud Boys etc are actual bigots.

p1akuw47h5r3it

klaaaz wrote: »

For one that happily quotes conservative web links and yet denies anything about the recent anti-abortion laws enacted by conservatives, your credibility is in tatters.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/16/politics/states-abortion-laws/index.html

Ah, Klaaaz and his infamous deficiency in basic comprehension. I'm fully aware of the laws being enacted in Alabama and I believe Georgia. I vehemently oppose them. What I don't accept is that these laws will result in

women [being] treated as 2nd class citizens with no bodily autonomy just like in the Republic of Gilead.

The bolded part I referred to as hyperbole:

Give us a break. I'm pro choice but trying to claim that these abortion laws are akin to having women being legally raped en-masse is hyperbolic nonsense.

Now let's break down what I said:

but trying to claim that these abortion laws

Notice how I never suggest the abortion laws don't exist. I'm aware they do. So your link to these laws, even from a conservative website (remember I told you I'm not a conservative, but anyhow), is pointless. It also doesn't address what I actually asked, but we'll get back to this.

are akin to having women being legally raped en-masse

As is the case in Gilead, a fictional place from the Book (and now tv show) The Handmaid's Tale. The women in Gilead can also have metal bars put through their mouth to prevent them speaking, must always walk in two's when in public, and can be publicly executed for trying to escape the country or in anyway harming a baby.

Now I believe comparing these laws as if they are somehow comparable to the above

is hyperbolic nonsense.

Now to what I actually asked:

What laws have been passed that allow women to be raped en-masse such as in the Handmaids Tale?

Notice how I never mention the abortion laws, as I'm aware they do exist. They do not however result in a society, or a reduction in a women's bodily autonomy, that is in anyway similar to those women in Gilead who, remember, can have metal bars put through there mouths, can be legally raped, and publicily hung for relatively minor offences.

Now just so we clear, yes these laws reduce a womens bodily autonomy, but not to the level of the women who "exist" in Gilead.

And it is quite simply hyperbolic to say so. The only thing in tatters is your ability to read and respond accordingly.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Brian? wrote: »

Is saying “actually Antifa aren’t as bad as they’re made out to be” supporting them?

Again, I support the underlying ideal of anti fascism.

The Proud Boys etc are actual bigots.

Well tell us then, do you support them or do you not?

Saying I support the non-violent elements of Anti-fa would be like someone saying I support the non-bigoted elements of the Proud Boys.

Midlife

notobtuse wrote: »

In fairness, you're wrong. How is pointing out we already have many gun control laws and cities that have the strictest gun control often have the largest gun deaths be obtuse... and that perhaps focusing on mental illness might be a more prudent method of dealing with this type of thing rather more gun control measures that will only negatively affect law-abiding citizens as those who don't give a sh!t about the laws will still kill?

so mental health services can be revamped

but

a clearly broken system of gun control which as you say has 20,000 individual laws can't be revamped

You still haven't answered my original question by the way.

Brian?

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Well tell us then, do you support them or do you not?

Saying I support the non-violent elements of Anti-fa would be like someone saying I support the non-bigoted elements of the Proud Boys.

I really thought I was being clear. I'm sympathetic to their stated goal of opposing fascism.

You're creating a false equivalency between the stated goals of Anitfa and the Proud Boys.

I don't support them in any material way, I agree with their goal.

notobtuse

Midlife wrote: »

so mental health services can be revamped

but

a clearly broken system of gun control which as you say has 20,000 individual laws can't be revamped

You still haven't answered my original question by the way.

Mental health services can be revamped? You lost me.

And it’s a bogus question and you know it. One would have to agree with your premise in order to put a number on it.

notobtuse

Brian? wrote: »

I really thought I was being clear. I'm sympathetic to their stated goal of opposing fascism.

You're creating a false equivalency between the stated goals of Anitfa and the Proud Boys.

I don't support them in any material way, I agree with their goal.

Anti-fascism movements include social democrats, nationalists, liberals, conservatives, communists, Marxists, trade unionists, socialists, pacifists and centrists. You could always get behind some of them and denounce Antifa who primarily utilize violence to get their way.

Your reasoning is rather bizarre. It would be like saying one agreed with the Nazi's goal because it was started to bring people of Germany out of poverty.

Midlife

notobtuse wrote: »

Mental health services can be revamped? You lost me.

And it’s a bogus question and you know it. One would have to agree with your premise in order to put a number on it.

Firstly, didn't you suggest looking at mental illness as a cause? My point is that tackling mental health issues that lead to these situatiions woudl involve a revamp of mental health services. Also, so we can now spot a young male who needs help. Are you saying we can't also stop them getting a gun?

Secondly, no you don't have to agree. That's my point. Are you saying there's no number of gun deaths that would make you consider allowing people to try some form of standardised national set of gun laws. You're so sure you're 100% correct.