Fine

Fastidious

devnull wrote: »

I don't know any station where there is only one validator within 5 minutes walk. . I presume this is why you won't name the station, because you will be called out for this.

Since you also don't answer the question of if your card had a photo or not I guess others will make their mind up about the reasons for this and if not tagging on was the only reason your ticket was invalid?

No I won't name the station cause I don't want a stalker as I do notice a particular poster who has started a smear campaign to bully me. Since you must know yes it was a personalised leap card as over 16s can't travel without the one that's personalised

Fastidious

GBX wrote: »

There's no attack going on - its an open forum where the OP has been posting in 2 threads for everybody to see and they have been contradicting themselves. The passport thing is "whack" yeah. :rolleyes:

As for being unfairly fined how so? He was caught without scanning his ticket - it was only free for kids if they scanned it on the validator prior to the journey. He didn't/couldn't walk 5 minutes to scan it and the inspector didnt accept his reasons but he is going to appeal it so life is good for them.

I was unfairly fined. So what travllers commuting on the other side then have to factor in the influx of commuters coming to use their validator. Nonsense

GBX

Fastidious wrote: »

Moderators, the abuse that I have been subjected to is nothing short of disgraceful. Like the above poster they claim to be these omisicient creatures that claim to know the ins and outs of the appeal process when in reality they're just looking to bully me. Please ban them.

Wow. :rolleyes: Who has abused you? I certainly haven't. Nor do I claim to know everything about the claim process. But don't worry I wont take offence to being called an "omisicient" creature. Anyway ... don't flatter yourself about gaining a stalker.
What I have done is ask questions of you on an open forum which you obviously didnt like. You have your mind made up about being wronged but you haven't liked the fact that myself and others have asked you questions either about your story. If you believe you have been unfairly fined go ahead and appeal, but I doubt you'll be successful based on the info you've posted on here.
Good luck my dear friend. With all your endeavours in life.

Stephen15

Fastidious wrote: »

No I won't name the station cause I don't want a stalker as I do notice a particular poster who has started a smear campaign to bully me. Since you must know yes it was a personalised leap card as over 16s can't travel without the one that's personalised

Well you're hardly the only 16 year old using the station. You can chose not to name the station fine but other posters can chose whether or not to believe your story.

Fastidious

Stephen15 wrote: »

Well you're hardly the only 16 year old using the station. You can chose not to name the station fine but other posters can chose whether or not to believe your story.

Yes but when the posters name starts with dart I hope you understand why

Fastidious

GBX wrote: »

Wow. :rolleyes: Who has abused you? I certainly haven't. Nor do I claim to know everything about the claim process. But don't worry I wont take offence to being called an "omisicient"

Mods see this for what it is a dig at dyslexic people

gwalk

Fastidious wrote: »

Mods see this for what it is a dig at dyslexic people

wow thats some reach haha,

nobody has mentioned dyslexia apart from you

GBX

Fast lad you are obviously trolling now. My supercomputer highlighted an incorrectly spelt word. If I wanted to throw digs around, Id hardly start by assuming somebody was dyslexic because of one misspelled word. I get it that you dont like me or how I post on here, but I won't lose sleep over it. You shouldn't either, I wont be rocking up to every dart station to get a selfie with you

This thread is a good laugh.

The cold hard facts are that you boarded the train/dart/luas (whatever it was) without a valid ticket.
Whether the validator was working or not is not important here.
The rules state that you need a valid ticket to use the mode of transport. You did not have a valid ticket. End of.

My only advice, would be to take note of what people have already said in this thread. Take it on the chin, and pay your fine.

You wont be the only person to receive a fine in a similar situation.

XPS_Zero

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Going to the other side of the platform to validate a ticket is a load of bollox. Nobody should have to do this, they should have validators on the train, the whole system is a load of ****e.
This country is so backward when it comes to even the simplest things. I had a similar issue 1 night leaving leixlip to go to Connolly and if I missed the train I was sleeping in the train station so I chose not to validate. I explained at the other end and they let me pay then. You shouldn’t be able to get a fine if the validators don’t work and the guy issuing the fine should be able to check this.
I took a photo of them when it happened with me to show an inspector had he got on,
Failing this he was getting a false name and address.

Sprinting over to the other side really does not seem like that big a deal to me tbh.


Explain what is so difficult about this? Esp for a young fit person? It would take what? I could get to the other side and back in under 30 seconds.


Lets be honest what happened here, the person said "f--k it i'm not gonna bother, they should have the ones working on this side anyway, and its probably ok with the free scheme in any case". Not because there was something inherently unreasonable about validating on the other side.

Midnight_EG

This thread is a hoot

Beta Ray Bill

OP

If you genuinely feel you have a case just don't pay the fine and let it go to court if the appeal doesn't work.

I suppose it's a case of convenience vs inconvenience

IE If you got off at the station (as opposed to getting on) and the validator wasn't working, would you cross the platform to tag off or just accept the full payment of €4.90
If the answer is you wouldn't bother then it's the inconvenience that's the issue. I've done this on many occasions getting off the train.
It's a pain in the hole to walk half way up the platform, over the bridge tag off then and back again.
You also had no way to know the other validator was working (This has happened me too).

The 2nd thing is if you look at your leap history and it shows you pay everyday going to work etc, this will help your case.

If you can prove both of the above Irish rail wont bother taking you to court as they know a judge will just throw it out, as it was a once off.

Bigmac1euro

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Explain what is so difficult about this? Esp for a young fit person? It would take what? I could get to the other side and back in under 30 seconds.

If there’s a train arriving your goosed. I reckon it’s more than 30 seconds as well. Up a stairs across a bridge down a stairs and a couple of feet to validated, pray there’s no queue if your running tight for time and then the same back over. 30 seconds is not realistic more around 2 minutes which is a lot of time if your making your train bang on time only to realise the validators aren’t working and the train is almost at the platform.

What I was pointing out is the fact that how would people know you can validate your ticket on a machine heading the opposite direction to the train your getting ? Which is not the case here but still I reckon some people wouldn’t realise you could do this. Maybe not I dunno.

XPS_Zero

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

If there’s a train arriving your goosed. I reckon it’s more than 30 seconds as well. Up a stairs across a bridge down a stairs and a couple of feet to validated, pray there’s no queue if your running tight for time and then the same back over. 30 seconds is not realistic more around 2 minutes which is a lot of time if your making your train bang on time only to realise the validators aren’t working and the train is almost at the platform.

What I was pointing out is the fact that how would people know you can validate your ticket on a machine heading the opposite direction to the train your getting ? Which is not the case here but still I reckon some people wouldn’t realise you could do this. Maybe not I dunno.

The direction does not matter everyone knows that, the station is where you tag, direction is not important.



As for rushing for the train...seriously I'm getting really annoyed at this excuse now, what are we f----g adults here or not?



^ Both those reasons can be answered with : IT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO KNOW HOW THE TICKETS WORK AND IT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO GET THERE IN PLENTY OF TIME!


CIE does not know their arse from their elbow and I resent having to defend them, but this is childish sh1t right here all of these whiny excuses.





I mean for God's sake if we let this kinda thinking go where does it end? "Ooops inspector sorry LOLZ!! I did't loike know that you had to like TAG the card first LOLZ SOZ! hahaha"
"oh I was gonna tag but I was totally late n stuff so like I decided I don't have to bother".


I got busted once for not knowing where the SHZ ended, and I was annoyed, not with them but with myself for not checking that first, making sure I was right about where it ended.


I mean if we can let people say they didn't understand how the system works or it was too much like...EFFORT N STUFF to tag on then we may as well just declare the entire thing free (which tbh I'd do anyway if we had actually finished T21 and had the infrastructure to handle the new loads).


Now I know I know the OP was NOT fare dodging but I repeat again the reason they have these rules is the way the legal system works, if you create a precedent other people can use it and get away with things. If I was an inspector, personally, I'd have let it go because it wasn't depriving the company of any money, but I can see the other side of it too. It's the same with my FT card, if I don't tag they don't know my cards valid, I'm not depriving them of money because DSP pays them anyway regardless of if I tag or not, but if they let people go without tagging people can be wandering all over the place with expired passes getting free travel they are not meant to be using.



So it takes 2 minutes....SO WHAT? Are you cutting it THAT razor thin? Really? I lived across the street from the DART station growing up, close enough to hear each dart pulling in and out (which became background noise you tuned out) and if the train was coming at 16:20 I'd leave the house at 16:15 at the latest because if I leave when the app shows it's left the previous station, 2-3 minutes away, I could get there and somethings wrong. I always left myself time. I remember it being one of the first things I had to learn as a school kid my mother would react to my "i missed the train" or "i was late because of x" with "always leave yourself plenty of time, you never know what's going to happen".




It's the basic expectation of adult behavior we all have to learn. But today it seems to much to ask of people to say:
-Yeh it's a b1tch that that gym ad makes you feel like crap, but shrug it off and either be happy with you who are atm or join a gym yourself


-No the fact that you fell off a swing without holding on properly is your fault you dont' deserve money for it, just watch what you are doing in future.


-No the fact that you were drunk or had a sad childhood does not mean we should let you off for raping/beating/murdering someone..if you can't handle your drink then why were you drinking?


Nobody can just take personal responsibility for themselves anymore everything has to be someone else fault, society didn't hand me the perfect, flawless, most convenient life imaginable...so will I respond to this status quo by doing things differently and trying to change it? No I'll just complain and whinge and bi11ch. I'm in my God damn 20s and you have me raving like a 75 year old curmudgeon, well done.

Bigmac1euro

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The direction does not matter everyone knows that, the station is where you tag, direction is not important.

I don’t think everyone knows that. But it’s not really the point here I suppose so onwards and upwards. Slow down on the Charlie before you’ve a heart attack though that’s some rant lol

devnull

Fastidious wrote: »

No I won't name the station cause I don't want a stalker as I do notice a particular poster who has started a smear campaign to bully me.

Without knowing the station it's very hard to comment on the specifics.

From your description seems that the station may have been one with two entrances and a bridge between them, there's a station on the DART line that I can think of that would fit into that criteria but that has multiple points of validation at each entrance and also has lifts and you claim the station you used does not have a lifts, which is why I can't place what the station is.

When you say the validator was not working, what exactly do you mean it was not working? What happened when you tried to validate your card against the pole or the barrier?

gwalk

Might not the a dart station, he said he would be stranded for an hour of he missed that train, Dart would be more frequent than that surely?

Donabate?

dartboardio

Has he even confirmed it is in or on the outskirts of Dublin?

Could be anywhere in the country no?

devnull

gwalk wrote: »

Might not the a dart station, he said he would be stranded for an hour of he missed that train, Dart would be more frequent than that surely?

Donabate?

Doesn't Donabate have lifts and multiple ticket barriers.

Looking back at the earlier posts from the OP, it was stated there were no lifts and they used a validator (which I assume is a pole), if there were gates then why did they not just try an adjacent barrier?

devnull

dartboardio wrote: »

Has he even confirmed it is in or on the outskirts of Dublin?

Could be anywhere in the country no?

Got to be somewhere that LEAP is accepted with a validator.

Stephen15

dartboardio wrote: »

Has he even confirmed it is in or on the outskirts of Dublin?

Could be anywhere in the country no?

Cork suburban services are the only IE services that accept Leap outside of the Dublin short hop zone. So it's either Cork or somewhere in or near Dublin.

gwalk

Confey?

Doesn't have lifts afaik, just ramps and steps

devnull

gwalk wrote: »

Confey?

Doesn't have lifts afaik, just ramps and steps

That's a good shout actually, it does have those very long ramps from the bridge and don't think it has barriers, but never got on/off there. It's one of few stations I've gone through many times but never actually got off at.

XPS_Zero

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

I don’t think everyone knows that. But it’s not really the point here I suppose so onwards and upwards. Slow down on the Charlie before you’ve a heart attack though that’s some rant lol

No, it is the point.



IT'S
THE
ENTIRE

POINT.


The point is check all this stuff out BEFORE you use the service. REad the label before you take the medication, read the instructions before you cook something, and find out how your tickets work before you go to the train station. It's common sense.


I'm sick of whiny excuses where everything is always someone elses fault cos they were not spoon fed.

XPS_Zero

btw OP don't take this personally, this was not an attack on you, but on a mindset. We've all gone through learning experiences in life, and as I said earlier I had to learn to leave myself plenty of time for such contingencies as well, but it's one of the things were meant to learn as we get older. This is not to sound patronizing, it's honestly not meant that way, but I remember my rugby coach saying to us "lads you think you know it all at 16 but you'll look back a few years later and cringe at how little you knew but thought you knew" and it's so true.
There are 100 little lessons like this you'll pick up.
(wait until you get to the 20-25 learning stage it's the MOST painful lesson wise, when you learn things like: 'oh my God, the smartest most talented people are not the ones put in charge' , 'most people are bitter losers who hate their life and will take this haltered out of those around them' , 'people do the right thing only when it's easy', 'never tell a woman a secret they can't hold their p1ss"...and so many more)



If you can park the ego aside and say "ok I made a mistake" and learn from the situation (in this case, to leave yourself spillover time just in case) you'll grow as a person and become wiser. If you are one of the vast vast majority of guys who can't park their ego or consider the possibility they may be in the wrong on this occasion, then the destination is a whiny adult who is always in the right but nobody ever sees it.



This case is esp unfair because the thing was free anyway, but you gotta learn to leave yourself enough time when traveling. The era with the apps and journey planners makes it look like you can plan your journey down to the second but you can't.

JayRoc

Never heard so much self-righteous nonsense in my life. God bless boards.



Chap tries to tag on but no validators working on the platform.

Even then it turns out he is entitled to free transport and can prove it. With a personalised Leap Card . With photo.



But no....he's fined by some jobsworth and given out to by keyboard warriors.

dartboardio

JayRoc wrote: »

Never heard so much self-righteous nonsense in my life. God bless boards.



Chap tries to tag on but no validators working on the platform.

Even then it turns out he is entitled to free transport and can prove it. With a personalised Leap Card . With photo.



But no....he's fined by some jobsworth and given out to by keyboard warriors.

Well thats Ireland for ya! They do have to make everything complicated

Stephen15

JayRoc wrote: »

But no....he's fined by some jobsworth and given out to by keyboard warriors.

Sorry but how is the Revenue Protection Officer a jobsworth for doing his/her job. They are employed by Irish Rail to protect the revenue of Irish Rail and that is exactly what this particular one who finded the OP is doing. The fact of the matter is if the OP doesn't tag on their Leap card Irish Rail don't get paid by the NTA regardless of whether there is a free travel scheme or not hence they are doing exactly what their job title says and protecting the revenue of Irish Rail.

The employee may not have even been made aware by their employer that there was a free travel scheme going on. The handheld Leap scanners used by RPOs may only tell them that the Leap card card has been scanned and not the balance or any other information about deductions on the Leap card.

There may have also been a lack of information given by Irish Rail to their employees about this free scheme and which could have advised them to use their discretion around dealing with child Leap card users during the scheme and a lack of information given by the NTA to remind child Leap card users that despite the free travel scheme they still must scan their cards.

I think you should see the bigger picture here rather than just simply blaming the employee. I believe in most cases other than outright cases of bad manners or incompetency that poor customer service or treatment is usually from the top down and not the individual employee but they're the ones on the front line dealing directly with the public so the easiest to give the blame to.

Wishbone Ash

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

... that how would people know you can validate your ticket on a machine heading the opposite direction to the train your getting ? Which is not the case here but still I reckon some people wouldn’t realise you could do this. Maybe not I dunno.

That was my first thought on reading this thread. I rarely use public transport (only having used a Leap Card once on a train) and would have presumed that scanning on the opposite side would make no sense and would indicate that I'm going in the other direction.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The direction does not matter everyone knows that....

Everyone?
See above.

Bigmac1euro

XPS_Zero wrote: »

No, it is the point.



IT'S
THE
ENTIRE

POINT.


The point is check all this stuff out BEFORE you use the service. REad the label before you take the medication, read the instructions before you cook something, and find out how your tickets work before you go to the train station. It's common sense.


I'm sick of whiny excuses where everything is always someone elses fault cos they were not spoon fed.

Show me instructions that say you can use the leapcard validator on the other side of the train track for a journey going the opposite way.

GBX

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Show me instructions that say you can use the leapcard validator on the other side of the train track for a journey going the opposite way.

Likewise, where does it say on the validator that it only applies to the direction of travel ?

magicbastarder

'lack of instructions' =/= 'instructions'

it's not obvious that a validator on a northbound platform can be used to validate on southbound journeys. and based on recently seeing maybe 8 or 10 people queueing to use the validator on the luas platform on which they've just disembarked, while there is a free one across the platform (past which many of them will be walking anyway), i suspect a lot of people don't realise this.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

'lack of instructions' =/= 'instructions'

it's not obvious that a validator on a northbound platform can be used to validate on southbound journeys. and based on recently seeing maybe 8 or 10 people queueing to use the validator on the luas platform on which they've just disembarked, while there is a free one across the platform (past which many of them will be walking anyway), i suspect a lot of people don't realise this.

• 'lack of working validator' =/= 'ok to travel without a validated ticket'
• 'lack of time to validate ticket' =/= 'ok to travel without a validated ticket'
• 'disability causing difficulty for customer to cross the track' =/= 'ok to travel without a validated ticket'
• 'free travel with conditions attached =/= 'ok to travel without a validated ticket'

As a customer, you are using someone elses services. There are terms and conditions for using these services. If you do not comply with these terms and conditions and get caught you get a fine. It is quite simple when you think about it

Beta Ray Bill

Deleted User wrote: »

• 'lack of working validator' =/= 'ok to travel without a validated ticket'
• 'lack of time to validate ticket' =/= 'ok to travel without a validated ticket'
• 'disability causing difficulty for customer to cross the track' =/= 'ok to travel without a validated ticket'
• 'free travel with conditions attached =/= 'ok to travel without a validated ticket'

As a customer, you are using someone elses services. There are terms and conditions for using these services. If you do not comply with these terms and conditions and get caught you get a fine. It is quite simple when you think about it

I understand what you are saying.
However Irish rail is owned by the public hence they are offering a public service.

IE there is no other way for a member of the public who partly owns a tiny percentage of Irish rail to get from A to B without their service running correctly.
The person still needs to get from A to B. It''s up to Irish rail to ensure they can pay.
Irish rail have an obligation to provide the service (which absolutely includes working ticket machines, lifts, clean stations and trains, etc) because they get a lot of Tax payers money AND are owned by the state.

In fact what you stated is one of the main reasons Public transport should never be privatised.
The obligation to provide the service is completely gone, as it's now about making money as opposed to getting people where they are going.

Riva10

grahambo wrote: »

I understand what you are saying.
However Irish rail is owned by the public hence they are offering a public service.

IE there is no other way for a member of the public who partly owns a tiny percentage of Irish rail to get from A to B without their service running correctly.
The person still needs to get from A to B. It''s up to Irish rail to ensure they can pay.
Irish rail have an obligation to provide the service (which absolutely includes working ticket machines, lifts, clean stations and trains, etc) because they get a lot of Tax payers money AND are owned by the state.

Yes. Typical, blame someone else because the op was too lazy to allow himself/herself sufficient time to allow for a validation process. It is time that people in general take responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming others. Hopefully this person learns from their experience and grows up. Adn pays their fine.

Beta Ray Bill

Riva10 wrote: »

Yes. Typical, blame someone else because the op was too lazy to allow himself/herself sufficient time to allow for a validation process. It is time that people in general take responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming others. Hopefully this person learns from their experience and grows up. Adn pays their fine.

Meh,

I'll give you an example:
The ticket machines at Kilbarrack DART station are not working correctly.
The Card reader has been broke on both machines for a number of weeks now. I've contacted Irish rail a couple of times on the issue. Nothing done.

I don't carry cash (It's 2019 and I live in Dublin).
I am aware I can top up my leap card on my phone and that's grand. (I'm ok)

However if I was someone who didn't already have a Leap Card, and wanted buy a ticket or Leap card with a credit card (as I didn't have cash) I'd have no way to pay.

Don't even try and argue they should have cash and that Irish Rail shouldn't have to take credit cards, this is the capital city of Ireland and it's 2019. You should always be able to pay with Card for public services.

Irish Rail are not providing the service that they are obligated to do.
People want to pay, but can't. And they still have to get where they are going. What other option is there?

GBX

grahambo wrote: »

I understand what you are saying.
However Irish rail is owned by the public hence they are offering a public service.

IE there is no other way for a member of the public who partly owns a tiny percentage of Irish rail to get from A to B without their service running correctly.
The person still needs to get from A to B. It''s up to Irish rail to ensure they can pay.
Irish rail have an obligation to provide the service (which absolutely includes working ticket machines, lifts, clean stations and trains, etc) because they get a lot of Tax payers money AND are owned by the state.

In fact what you stated is one of the main reasons Public transport should never be privatised.
The obligation to provide the service is completely gone, as it's now about making money as opposed to getting people where they are going.

Yes they are owned by the state/public but they operate as a business and have their rules to travel ie travel with a validated ticket. Working ticket machine yes - There was no mention of the ticket machine not working. Only the validator. If the validator wasnt working, the onus is still on the person to have a valid ticket to travel and if that means buying a single ticket thats what Irish Rail/Luas expect.

GBX

grahambo wrote: »

Meh,

I'll give you an example:
The ticket machines at Kilbarrack DART station are not working correctly.
The Card reader has been broke on both machines for a number of weeks now. I've contacted Irish rail a couple of times on the issue. Nothing done.

I don't carry cash (It's 2019 and I live in Dublin).
I am aware I can top up my leap card on my phone and that's grand. (I'm ok)

However if I was someone who didn't already have a Leap Card, and wanted buy a ticket or Leap card with a credit card (as I didn't have cash) I'd have no way to pay.

Don't even try and argue they should have cash and that Irish Rail shouldn't have to take credit cards, this is the capital city of Ireland and it's 2019. You should always be able to pay with Card for public services.

Irish Rail are not providing the service that they are obligated to do.
People want to pay, but can't. And they still have to get where they are going. What other option is there?

Why not argue about carrying cash? Its legal tender used by a vast amount of the population even in 2019. Just because tech has gained ground doesnt mean it should be the only option now. Cash is king and still accepted and will continue to be for a very long time.

Beta Ray Bill

GBX wrote: »

Why not argue about carrying cash? Its legal tender used by a vast amount of the population even in 2019. Just because tech has gained ground doesnt mean it should be the only option now. Cash is king and still accepted and will continue to be for a very long time.

True cash is king for now.
But cashless society is on it's way.

GBX wrote: »

Yes they are owned by the state/public but they operate as a business and have their rules to travel ie travel with a validated ticket. Working ticket machine yes - There was no mention of the ticket machine not working. Only the validator. If the validator wasnt working, the onus is still on the person to have a valid ticket to travel and if that means buying a single ticket thats what Irish Rail/Luas expect.

Point taken.
OP could have gone and purchased a ticket (If they had cash and/or the card machine was working)

However, it also needs to be noted that the Leap Card obviously had funds on it.
Therefore Irish Rail/NTA has already effectively taken payment. (You cannot get refunds off a Leap Card)
So if the validator isn't working after taking payment then it's Irish rails issue.

If you paid in advance for something like a Sandwich, and then the person at the sandwich shops says "I cant take accept your prepayment for that sandwich here, you'll need to go to another sandwich shop down the road"
Do you think that situation is acceptable given the person paid in advance?

Of course it's not.

Irish rail are 100% obligated to provide the service. they get huge amounts of public money.
If they cannot provide it then that's their problem, simple as.

magicbastarder

i am kinda fascinated by the reaction that IR can provide a poor service, but when limitations in that service crop up (non-functional validators, lack of clear signal that if a validator is not working that you can use any at the station), the reaction is to blame the consumer rather than the provider.

yes, there are rules and regulations, but if IR hide behind them when they're not doing an adequate job it doesn't say much for IR.

i would like to think that the standard fare issued in this case might actually be used to maybe pay for someone who knows about UX and provision of information to go over how stations are designed and make things a little clearer for people not familiar with PT. don't forget, the services should be usable by anyone not familiar with them, be they an irish resident who does not use PT frequently, or a tourist new to this country.

it may be as simple as a notice on the validator stating 'any validator on any platform in this station can be used for validation'.

Op should use all these arguments in his appeal, he'll surely be victorious because they are totally logical, valid reasons for not doing what is required

Oh wait, no they're not

tipptom

Irish rail are there to provide a service and they did not in this instance.
Inspector should be apologising for this and validate his ticket instead of fining him.

XPS_Zero

JayRoc wrote: »

Never heard so much self-righteous nonsense in my life. God bless boards.




Chap tries to tag on but no validators working on the platform.

Even then it turns out he is entitled to free transport and can prove it. With a personalised Leap Card . With photo.



But no....he's fined by some jobsworth and given out to by keyboard warriors.

Nobody is giving out to him, were giving him simple advice on how to prevent getting into this situation again. Excuses like not leaving yourself enough time dont' work in the real world. Would you rather we lie to him? and say !"continue to cut it razor thin so you've no overflow time if something goes wrong"..."DON'T bother to read the terms and conditions of a scheme you are using"...
yeh telling someone exactly what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear that will totally get the best out of them. Have we not got enough of that going around already? Is the internet not enough of a bloody echo chamber where people only listen to or read news that confirms their existing beleifs and never hear anything from another perspective?

dartboardio wrote: »

Well thats Ireland for ya! They do have to make everything complicated

How is "tag the card" complicated?


How is "if the validator on your side isn't working cross the bridge to the other side" complicated?


It's placing a card against a bullseye what's complex or unreasonable about that?

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That was my first thought on reading this thread. I rarely use public transport (only having used a Leap Card once on a train) and would have presumed that scanning on the opposite side would make no sense and would indicate that I'm going in the other direction.

Everyone?
See above.

This just shows the problem people have now with the need to have everything spoon fed to them, to have the world revolve around t hem and their needs. Ok so you don't take PT often and don't know how the leap card works SO LOOK IT UP BEFORE GOING TO THE TRAIN STATION. If you don't look it up, how is that IE's fault rather than yours?
Why on earth, in any case, would a price be different going south than north from the same station? Where you tag off matters, it's common sense.


First thing I did when I got a LEAP card, and the FT card, was to read up on how they are meant to be used, which is why I know you must always tag the FT card esp with the private companies as it helps them get more accurate pay in their block grants.



If you are allergic to eggs and don't bother to ask if they are in food you order at a restaurant that's your fault not theirs.
If you don't look up how contactless cards work and you hit the daily cap but never bothered to memorize your pin that's not the shops fault it's yours.

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Show me instructions that say you can use the leapcard validator on the other side of the train track for a journey going the opposite way.

Lets do something mad for the internet millennial age and try using common sense because you're intentionally TRYING not to understand now. Most stations have ONE SET of electronic gates that lead to BOTH platforms so how would they know what direction you are traveling?
...and why would one machine that leads to both platforms suggest no direct ion but the ones ON the platforms WOULD bill you per direction? How would that work? if one was using common sense instead of stroppy adolescent excuse generation?


https://about.leapcard.ie/about/using-leap


1.40 on the video is says tag on at your station, nothing about direction , and tag off at end of journey.


The ad explaining the DART Leap system says this:

When travelling by rail with your TFI Leap Card, touch your card on and off the Validator / Gate when entering and exiting the station or platform.

Nothing about direction being a factor, so one looking for common sense (instead of excuses and technicalities) would assume it is therefore NOT a factor.




Now if one bothers to go to the KIDS GO FREE website and look up how it works you find:

How does it work?

Simply use your Child Leap Card as normal and you won’t be charged. Any Child Leap Card (5-15 or 16-18) can be used to get free travel from Monday 1st July until Sunday 28th July (inclusive) provided it has at least 1 cent Travel Credit.

Now how do we normally use it? Tagging it. Do you normally get to carry the card around in your pocket without any other steps? It's common sense.




You can also find this in one of the newspapers stories about KIDS GO FREE:

It also applies to Bus Eireann services where Leap Card validators are available

The only legit argument here is "maybe they could have let it go since it was meant to be free anyway" but you can come back to that with the NTA block grant requring the DATA for IE to get paid. BS about validators etc just does not fly.




Grahambo by that silly standard you can say LEAP has already taken the money when I top it up by €20 so I don't need to validate. It's not IE who has the money when you top up anyway, its' the NTA, it's only when it's tagged it will go to IE, and this person didn't tag.

XPS_Zero

tipptom wrote: »

Irish rail are there to provide a service and they did not in this instance.
Inspector should be apologising for this and validate his ticket instead of fining him.

He didn't follow the rules required to take advantage of the service that's why it wasnt provided.

Stephen15

tipptom wrote: »

Irish rail are there to provide a service and they did not in this instance.
Inspector should be apologising for this and validate his ticket instead of fining him.

Why so as far as the inspector who's proper name is a Revenue Protection Officer (RPO) is concerned the OP didn't pay their fare. Hence they are performing their exact job title and protecting the revenue of IE.

joeysoap

What if you live in say Monaghan are traveling by train say from Dundalk, and don’t have a leap card


Are you still entitled to the kids go free or is post code lottery?

magicbastarder

XPS_Zero wrote: »

This just shows the problem people have now with the need to have everything spoon fed to them, to have the world revolve around t hem and their needs. Ok so you don't take PT often and don't know how the leap card works SO LOOK IT UP BEFORE GOING TO THE TRAIN STATION. If you don't look it up, how is that IE's fault rather than yours?

oh, bleeding hell, if you need to actually research online, before leaving the house, something which should be this simple, IR are failing and failing hard.

and for the record - on their rather voluminous FAQ - there's nothing obvious about broken validators.
http://www.irishrail.ie/contact-us/faqs

here's an anecdote - while driving in the north of spain on a motorway a few years ago, we came across a line of what seemed to be abandoned toll booths. all barriers were raised, and all signs were in spanish. we didn't know what to do, so after pausing to take it in and figure out what we were meant to do, we drove on and god knows how many km later, we were stopped at a second booth and asked for our card. what card? anyway, the maximum possible toll was levied.
apparently at the previous toll booth, we should have pressed a button to take a card, to be presented at the next as a record of how far we'd travelled. this was far from obvious.
was i in the wrong? it looks like it. should that have been allowed happen? not at all - the barrier should not have lifted until we actually took the card, or some other clear signal of the procedure made obvious.

but i know if i arrived on the spanish version of boards with this tale, i'd be berated for being in the wrong, and that it's my own fault for not knowing how something as simple as a badly designed toll system operates. and how i need things spoon fed to me.

gwalk

joeysoap wrote: »

What if you live in say Monaghan are traveling by train say from Dundalk, and don’t have a leap card


Are you still entitled to the kids go free or is post code lottery?

Dundalk isnt in the short hop zone so a leap card would not work, you would need to buy a ticket to Balbriggan and tag on from there

magicbastarder

i shouldn't be too hard on IR, i work in a large multinational brimming with technical people, in a modern supposedly well designed building, and our building is littered with norman doors. some of which seem designed to skin your knuckles.

https://99percentinvisible.org/article/norman-doors-dont-know-whether-push-pull-blame-design/

XPS_Zero

magicbastarder wrote: »

i am kinda fascinated by the reaction that IR can provide a poor service, but when limitations in that service crop up (non-functional validators, lack of clear signal that if a validator is not working that you can use any at the station), the reaction is to blame the consumer rather than the provider

They were not all broken though, in this case there were working validators at the platform. If they were all broke he'd have100% chance of winning the appeal and the inspectors would probably be told about them being busted.

i would like to think that the standard fare issued in this case might actually be used to maybe pay for someone who knows about UX and provision of information to go over how stations are designed and make things a little clearer for people not familiar with PT. don't forget, the services should be usable by anyone not familiar with them, be they an irish resident who does not use PT frequently, or a tourist new to this country.

It's not unreasonable I don't think, to ask someone to look up online how a system works before they get a card, or to leave a bit of wiggle room in their schedule in case a train is late etc
When I was going to LA I looked up how the MTA card worked, when I was going to London I looked up how the Oyster card worked, when I got any card here I looked up online how it works..why is this such a chore? For a generation who stare into their phones 24-7 instead of lookin at the world around them why is going to a website for less than 5 minutes that big a deal?

it may be as simple as a notice on the validator stating 'any validator on any platform in this station can be used for validation'.

IMO that's like the signs in the bathroom that say "don't leave the baby alone on this baby changer shelf thing"...what I call moron signs, that need to be there for people who are too stupid to stand up without falling over again. If you look up how it works before going out you won't need such signs.

joeysoap wrote: »

What if you live in say Monaghan are traveling by train say from Dundalk, and don’t have a leap card


Are you still entitled to the kids go free or is post code lottery?

It's not a postcode lottery.

DART and Commuter services in the two main cities (exc Belfast obviously) Cork and Dublin are included, inside their short hop zones.
Irish Rail, something you can, as above, tell from looking at the website, has three types of services:
-DART
-Commutter
-Intercity (no free)


With rail....







With Luas....
All Luas


With Bus Eireann....
All BE city services inside the cities of Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford , Sligo , Athlone


^^^^ all of which is on the website....


https://about.leapcard.ie/kids-go-free


...and not at all hard to find.


Sorry to disappoint, that chip against Dublin will have to be used another time hope the shoulder doens't get sore waiting.

magicbastarder wrote: »

oh, bleeding hell, if you need to actually research online, before leaving the house, something which should be this simple, IR are failing and failing hard.

No no now come on with the hyperbole you don't need to "RESEARCH" it, you go to a website and look it up, it takes less than a minute:


https://about.leapcard.ie/kids-go-free


It's explained with a dumbed down cartoon video (a load of them) and a few quick bullet points, there is no need for "research" even if you meant it in the I'M A SUPER SMART 9/11 TRUTHER ANTIVAXXER type way they mean "research"


If reading a few bullet points is too much hassle then I suggest social media has damaged ones attention span and one has much bigger issues.

and for the record - on their rather voluminous FAQ - there's nothing obvious about broken validators.

There were working validators in the station. If the validators are all broken RPU get told about it and you are not fined, and if you were you win the appeal.
The rules are you "pay at the earliest opportunity".




Incidentally, one does not have to read the full terms and conditions but if you did you would find:

2.5 You must have a valid ticket to travel. This means that when using Travel Credit or a ticket pre-loaded onto the Leap Card, you must always successfully “Touch-On” prior to commencing any journey. Leap Card customers will receive visual and/or audible signal notification when they successfully Touch-On.

If you are asked by an employee of a Transport Operator to show your ticket, show your Leap Card (or Student Leap Card if travelling using Leap Travel Credit or a Leap ticket). This can be checked to show that you have Touched-On correctly. If you do not have a valid ticket or you have not “Touched-On” you will be issued with a Standard Fare Notice by the Transport Operator subject to the Conditions of Carriage of that Transport Operator and may also be prosecuted for fare evasion.

But you don't need to read the T&Cs you just need to read the bullet points on the website. You do this once. As I said I did it for the MTA and Oyster, I didn't assume they were the same as the Leap (and they're not), it only took a few minutes. I just accepted that it's a new system and I had to learn how it worked, I didn't strop and whinge and moan that it was "research" and aw gawwwwwwwwwwwwd mum I totes just wanna play call of duty like!!!!!!!! gawwwwwwwwwwwddddddddddd!!!!!!!!!!!! which seems to be your approach to such things.

but i know if i arrived on the spanish version of boards with this tale, i'd be berated for being in the wrong, and that it's my own fault for not knowing how something as simple as a badly designed toll system operates. and how i need things spoon fed to me.

Ok so you know you're going to be driving on a countries roads, would you not take a look at the route you intend to go and if you see a toll booth on the app or the maps, find out how it works? Is that too much to ask?


Lets assume it is. This was not a foreign country, this is the persons home country. There is a type of card you've not used before, would you not look up how this card is used before using it? Would you not look up the terms of this summer scheme first?


You might, and I might, as a teenager, think I already know and not bother. I probably would have. Id' probably have assumed if it's free then why would you need to tag? NTA block grants to IE would not have occurred to me as a 16 year old, so I'd have done what he did.


What I'm trying to do is not give out to the guy, but to give him advice so he does not make the same kind of mistakes as I did with this stuff, by telling him you can avoid problems like this if:

-leave yourself plenty of time
-you check out online how a card/scheme works before using it


....instead of also helping him avoid this kinda error you are telling him to keep the fines and make all the mistakes but it's ok cos you can sit in the corner fuming at how RIGHT YOU ARE!!!!! URGHHHHHHHH YEH IM RIGHT IM RIGHT....and i'm broke from all these fines and keep getting in trouble BUT IM RIGHT...THE WORLD IS WRONG BUT YEH IM RIGHT...YEHHHHHHHHH




Great lesson to teach, just fantastic.






It's like I said above OP , most adults chose the latter way of approaching the world, instead of learning from their mistakes they instead doubled down, their little egos can't take the idea that they might have done something stupid, so they bathe in how right they are while never learning anything new, everyone ELSE is the arse1ole. They don't avoid the mistakes in future there is just an ever growing list of people who are out to get them, who are always wrong.


Controlling your emotions and your ego are central to maturing as you get older, and it's a stage, as you can see, most never go through cos they can't take just a LITTLE bit of humility in saying "ok I did things the dumb way on this occasion and walked myself into this".