DCC take back bin collections

Tony EH

fly_agaric wrote: »

We'd have to agree to disagree there I think. It's been a long time ago now though.
My memory (of Dublin City Council) was "protests" (in the form of just refusing to pay it) began when the charges came, but as you said, were smaller - less obvious/public anyway. Then council increased the charge quite a lot as years passed and also tried to go harder on any people not paying (stop collecting their rubbish) and it got much, much worse then [blocking trucks, politicians involved etc].
Then council hived it off to private companies and washed their hands of the problems.

Found a wiki page on it here (take with a grain of salt perhaps but it has a few links to old newspaper articles)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Bin_Tax_Campaign

We're not actually disagreeing here fly. As I said, it was small scale until serious efforts at privatisation started to be out into effect. But by then, it was probably too late to reverse anything. The drip drip approach meant that by the time people took notice, it was a done deal.

Tony EH

odyssey06 wrote: »

Dublin City Council were owed 9 million in bin charges before selling out to Greyhound.
https://m.herald.ie/news/council-is-owed-7-2m-in-unpaid-rubbish-charges-30448062.html

I know. But unpaid charges calls for better collection methods. Not privatisation.

Why are they talking about bringing it back under their control? If everything is so great, why is that even on the table?

odyssey06

Tony EH wrote: »

I know. But unpaid charges calls for better collection methods. Not privatisation.
Why are they talking about bringing it back under their control? If everything is so great, why is that even on the table?

Have I said anywhere that everything is great?

If everything had been great in 2011 DCC wouldnt have gotten out of provision of the service. In 2011 they didnt think themselves capable of better debt collections or provision of the same service without a massive increase in budget.

Lets see what DCC are proposing and how much it will cost and how it will be funded.

Tony EH

odyssey06 wrote: »

Have I said anywhere that everything is great?

I didn't say you did. It's rhetorical. This measure wouldn't have seen the light of day if all was well.

Privatisation has failed on numerous levels. It hasn't helped with anything and has made things a lot worse in other respects.

odyssey06 wrote: »

If everything had been great in 2011 DCC wouldnt have gotten out of provision of the service. In 2011 they didnt think themselves capable of better debt collections or provision of the same service without a massive increase in budget.

Lets see what DCC are proposing and how much it will cost and how it will be funded.

Modern day governmental bodies are all eager to offload their public responsibility as much as they can, because this allows them to redirect public complaints to private business (who couldn't care less) and it no longer remains a concern of theirs.

This is especially true of governments of a more right wing nature and they practically gag at the bit to eschew their more civic responsibilities, because it gives them less to be concerned about and less ammo for the public to fire at them.

In any case, regardless of why the DCC wanted to hock off the responsibility for waste management, it's clear that it's been worse under the private model for Dublin as a whole.

Sleeper12

odyssey06 wrote: »

Dublin City Council were owed 9 million in bin charges before selling out to Greyhound.
https://m.herald.ie/news/council-is-owed-7-2m-in-unpaid-rubbish-charges-30448062.html

One of the reasons DCC got out of it and the problems havent gone away if they resume involvement.

This is why I am amazed when people claim that privatizing the bin collection failed. It has been a huge success. Both Dublin companies provide a for better service & they can make a proffit. DCC provided a worse service (I'd go weeks over the Christmas without a collection despite them putting a leaflet in the door with christmas collection days) & DCC lost millions on the service.


The reality is that private companies have been a massive success & DCC collection a massive disaster. Anyone claiming otherwise just wants free bin collections

fly_agaric

Sleeper12 wrote:

This is why I am amazed when people claim that privatizing the bin collection failed. It has been a huge success. Both Dublin companies provide a for better service & they can make a proffit. DCC provided a worse service (I'd go weeks over the Christmas without a collection despite them putting a leaflet in the door with christmas collection days) & DCC lost millions on the service.

It was a success for the private waste companies and for DCC alright (in that it did what it set out to do by getting irate politicians and the non paying protesters off their back and giving the council one less job to do).

Personally my service got worse. Had not experienced the problems you or others did with the council.

Then - bin collected on same day at same time other than Christmas or New Year.
Bins put back outside.
1 truck (or 2 once waste separation/recycling came in).
Council sent a street sweeping vehicle out after the bin collections.

Now - Bins collected at totally random times in the day.
(9pm sometimes, 7am other times).
Bins left 1-2 doors up or down the road.
Gone from the council indulging ridiculous non payment nonsense to a zero tolerance policy. No, or too little money on account for a heavy bin, no bin lift.
Multiple sets of trucks of different outfits all collecting bins on different days at different times, damaging roads, making noise.
Council cannot send the street cleaning vehicle at the appropriate time to pick up blown about litter etc. because the collection times are random (and there are several of them by different cos anyway).

Anyway that's quite enough moaning! :pac:

Sleeper12

fly_agaric wrote:

Now - Bins collected at totally random times in the day. (9pm sometimes, 7am other times). Bins left 1-2 doors up or down the road. Gone from the council indulging ridiculous non payment nonsense to a zero tolerance policy. No, or too little money on account for a heavy bin, no bin lift. Multiple sets of trucks of different outfits all collecting bins on different days at different times, damaging roads, making noise. Council cannot send the street cleaning vehicle at the appropriate time to pick up blown about litter etc. because the collection times are random (and there are several of them by different cos anyway).

I find Greyhound are as you described above but City Bins are the complete opposite (on my street anyway). My bins are collected just before 8am each Friday and bins are placed neatly at driveway pillar. My pillar no less.

There shouldn't be differ collection days between you and your neighbours even if you use different companies. Laws /bylaws pass about two years ago say they must have the same day.

fly_agaric

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I find Greyhound are as you described above but City Bins are the complete opposite (on my street anyway). My bins are collected just before 8am each Friday and bins are placed neatly at driveway pillar. My pillar no less.

There shouldn't be differ collection days between you and your neighbours even if you use different companies. Laws /bylaws pass about two years ago say they must have the same day.

Yes, it is Greyhound. You are right - I'd forgotten that changed and they (City Bin, Greyhound) do collect on the same days in the area now.

Sleeper12

fly_agaric wrote:

Yes, it is Greyhound. You are right - I'd forgotten that changed and they (City Bin, Greyhound) do collect on the same days in the area now.

I'd never go back to greyhound again. City bins provide a far better service imo.

fly_agaric

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'd never go back to greyhound again. City bins provide a far better service imo.

Had heard that before alright but have been lazy when it comes to switching things.

Marcusm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'd never go back to greyhound again. City bins provide a far better service imo.

I’m a real fan of City Bin Co. bins are collected at the same time (approx 9:15am Monday) except on bank holidays when, with little traffic, they’re often collected by 8am. I’ve had collections on Christmas and NY eves. They clearly train their people, we have lanes with mews houses beside us. The City Bins never block the pavement or road, the Greyhound/Thornton’s/old DCC could block the pavement and street.

PhilOssophy

The good thing about DCC taking control back is they'll have control over making sure that everybody has an account with them without encountering the data privacy issue they currently have.
Anything which makes everybody pay at least a basic flat fee, deducted at source if they don't pay, is a good thing.

Sleeper12

PhilOssophy wrote:

The good thing about DCC taking control back is they'll have control over making sure that everybody has an account with them without encountering the data privacy issue they currently have. Anything which makes everybody pay at least a basic flat fee, deducted at source if they don't pay, is a good thing.

They aren't taking control. They aren't getting back into bin collection either. They voted but the city manager won't implement it. It seems to be some sort of publicity stunt

Bottle deposit/return system is a no-brainer.

PhilOssophy

Deleted User wrote: »

Bottle deposit/return system is a no-brainer.

Why that hasn't been brought in by now is beyond me. A huge amount of the rubbish on our streets is caused by this.

Retailers would be all over this because if they take back the bottle they get the store credit.

fritzelly

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Why that hasn't been brought in by now is beyond me. A huge amount of the rubbish on our streets is caused by this.

Retailers would be all over this because if they take back the bottle they get the store credit.

Because it would cost too much to set up...
Then you would probably have the stores complaining they don't have room to store them
Nothing wrong with plenty of bottle banks

PhilOssophy

fritzelly wrote: »

Because it would cost too much to set up...
Then you would probably have the stores complaining they don't have room to store them
Nothing wrong with plenty of bottle banks

Would it cost more to set up than to empty every bin in the city as it fills with cans and bottles every day? The problem with bottle banks is there is no incentive to bother your behind bringing your bottles there. Decent people do it but plenty of people don't, if you hit them in the pocket that'd change

caff

fritzelly wrote: »

Because it would cost too much to set up...
Then you would probably have the stores complaining they don't have room to store them
Nothing wrong with plenty of bottle banks

Ibec would jump up and down whinging about government red tape cost of doing business etc...

PhilOssophy

caff wrote: »

Ibec would jump up and down whinging about government red tape cost of doing business etc...

You don't think Lidl and Aldi could just replicate what they have in Germany, no? It'd be as simple as "here Stefan, send us over 500 of those machines". This is at the entrance to their stores.

The reduction in our street bin waste would be huge.

Tony EH

PhilOssophy wrote: »

if you hit them in the pocket that'd change

This is a complete fallacy and it's proven time and time again.

What needs to be done is to make recycling an attractive and easy option. I'm old enough to remember being able to bring bottles back to a shop and you'd get 5p back. As a small child, such a thing was pretty good and I'd volunteer to bring the bottles across to the shop because I could keep the 5p's. Happy days. And it thought me a certain principle.

That all disappeared because shops didn't want to bother with that any more. It wasn't people who abandoned it. It was businesses.

When separating household recycling for got started in earnest in Ireland, the vast majority of people were on board with it, because it was free. You got free bags from the council and people separated the waste happily enough. When the private companies got the gig, they started to charge people for their recycling, even though the companies themselves were actually making money from selling the recycled goods!

A lot of folk naturally got really pissed off at that shit, and I don't blame them.

We need to stop blaming Joe soap down the road for environmental issues and start looking at the real culprits who cause the most problems where recycling and environmental problems are concerned, and that businesses, who BY FAR have the biggest impact with their lack of concern about their waste.

caff

PhilOssophy wrote: »

You don't think Lidl and Aldi could just replicate what they have in Germany, no? It'd be as simple as "here Stefan, send us over 500 of those machines". This is at the entrance to their stores.

The reduction in our street bin waste would be huge.

They do it in Germany because its the law. Trying to bring that legislation in here would be hard due to business lobbying against it

PhilOssophy

Given the focus on environmental issues at present I'm not convinced businesses would lobby against it. I also don't feel that business interest should trump environmental interests.

fritzelly

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Would it cost more to set up than to empty every bin in the city as it fills with cans and bottles every day? The problem with bottle banks is there is no incentive to bother your behind bringing your bottles there. Decent people do it but plenty of people don't, if you hit them in the pocket that'd change

Like in Germany you just throw them in a machine and they get smashed (same with aluminium cans) - nothing shop dependent - they just have a symbol if they are returnable and lots of medium and larger shops have them
But that is where the cost factor probably comes in - I assume it is and they weren't expecting shops to store crates of bottles to be picked up.
Lidl and Aldi aren't gonna spend their own money on the machines and then the cost of disposal

PhilOssophy

Yeah there would be a bit of cost, but the benefit of it is less full bins, cans and bottles not being thrown on the ground everywhere, and less space in bins around the city taken up by cans and bottles. If it is fine on Saturday, you can be sure the beaches, canals, waterways, etc will be left in a complete state, or for somebody else to clean up the cans.
It is a no-brainer in my view.

BabysCoffee

fritzelly wrote: »

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-city-council-vote-to-take-charge-of-bin-service-934187.html

Assume when the current contracts end, not much detail
Will subsidies be brought back? Will it stop all the dumping (unlikely)?

I'll be sticking with City Bin. I think they are brilliant

Sleeper12

DCC exited the household waste in January 2012 when they did it was running at a annual loss of 10 million euros, now to return the market and purchase a bin truck it would cost a €100k . Then you have the purchase of bins, the introduction and implementation of IT systems and back office staff for the management of billing systems.

The above quote came from an ex councilor of a local group I'm part of. I genuinely can't see DCC ever getting back into bin collection nor do I think they ever should again. They never ran a good service & to lose 10 million (this shocked me) every year to boot is shocking. The only people looking for a return to this waste of money are the ones who don't want to pay.

odyssey06

Is there no half way house between the current system and DCC exerting more control e.g. a tender system so that Greyhound \ City Bin \ Panda take particular areas i.e. only one company per area but all customers under a DCC contract?

BowWow

"Then you have the purchase of bins"

I'm in Fingal and still have the 3 bins that came out 15 odd years ago. Now on our third collector.
Just wondering - who actually owns the bins? Is it the council or Panda - our current supplier.
Would DCC have to buy all new bins in their area?

Sleeper12

odyssey06 wrote: »

Is there no half way house between the current system and DCC exerting more control e.g. a tender system so that Greyhound \ City Bin \ Panda take particular areas i.e. only one company per area but all customers under a DCC contract?

One company per area means no competition & higher prices

BowWow wrote: »

"Then you have the purchase of bins"

I'm in Fingal and still have the 3 bins that came out 15 odd years ago. Now on our third collector.
Just wondering - who actually owns the bins? Is it the council or Panda - our current supplier.
Would DCC have to buy all new bins in their area?

DCC sold their bins to Greyhound in 2012. When I left Greyhound they took their bins back & City bins provides me with new bins. The bins are the property of the individual bin companies.




If DCC enter the bin market again they wont be allowed to lose money. Competition laws forbid one company to be subsidized & not the others. There is no way DCC can compete with the private companies without being subsidized. For starters the wage will be linked to other DCC staff. These are on a much higher wage than City bin or Greyhound workers. They will have all of the extra benefits like X amount of unpaid leave that other DCC staff enjoy. The staff will be paid more & have much better benefits than the other companies. They lost 10 million per year with no competition. They haven't a hope of breaking even now.



It's a pipe dream & a very bad idea from a taxpayers point of view




One last point. People are giving out about price increases. The FG government forced the companies to charge for the Green bin & to charge by weight. DCC is bound by law to charge in the same manor

odyssey06

Sleeper12 wrote: »

One company per area means no competition r

Clearly there would have to be a competitive tendering process for the bin companies to bid for the DCC area contract for X years.
There would be no DCC bin collectors or trucks or depots. But DCC would set the pricing structure.

I think this is a common setup in other countries?