Off work sick, management harrassing with calls

mikeymouse

Your manager just needs to plan ahead.
Will he need someone to do your job, maybe an agency, or secondment,
or ask colleagues to do overtime.
I'm guessing the manager wouldn't want to be doing that on a daily basis.
Hence the weekly phone calls, in his position I would be doing the same.
Don't read too much into it.
Just maybe the offer of getting the company doctor involved was done with the best intentions.
When you say company doctor, it's unlikely there's a doctor employed solely by the company just to keep tabs on their employees,
more likely a doctor nominated by the company, rather than the employee.
Get well soon op

edit;
just saw your post from 2 weeks ago on a different topic saying you had been off sick for a month.
Just how long have you been off?

brightspark

Have you made a social welfare claim?

https://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Important_New_Forms_and%20Certs_from_23_July_2018.pdf

The social welfare require WEEKLY certificates (unless you have been informed otherwise)

Your entitlement to social welfare sick pay will probably depend on your work history (having enough PRSI contributions etc.)

(If you haven't already applied you may not be paid for the weeks that have passed as you are supposed to apply within seven days).

Almost every single contract of employment I have ever signed (regardless of whether or not the company paid sick pay) there has been a clause requiring attending the company doctor when requested.
It is possible that within your contract there could be a clause that would allow the company not to pay you at all while out sick if you fail to visit the company doctor on request.

However if your illness is such that your doctor would consider you travelling to another doctor detrimental to your health it may be possible for you to argue that you cannot go to the company doctor.

Dav010

Stheno wrote: »

No if you signed that contract with the company doctor policy by that's consent essentially even under gdpr depending on the wording.

I would not sign such a contract

This is actually incorrect.

Irrespective of company policy, a GP is bound by a code of ethics, patient confidentiality is sacrosanct and it cannot be over ridden by company policy or employment contract. The op must give the GP explicit consent to share medical info, without that consent the GP can expect a trip to the Medical Council if confidentially is breached.

Op, the limit of the company Dr’s role is to confirm the illness and to try and assess the period you are likely to be absent. Nothing more. He/she is unlikely to give a second opinion as he/she will not have your medical history nor test results. The examination/discussion is superficial. A diagnosis or an opinion which differs from your own GP’s would be fraught with risk so they just don’t do it.

You have nothing to be apprehensive about if you have a valid reason to be on sick leave, the policy is there to monitor those who don’t.

In relation to the calls, I had an independent HR company draw up policies for dealing with absences due to illness a few years ago, one of the recommendations was to contact the employee once a week to check how they are, not to enquire about the nature of the illness.

STB.

[QUOTE= Originally Posted by bs2014
Without getting into tit for tat arguing
-I haven't refused to go to company doctor (they have only suggested they might send me). I just think it is unreasonable at such an early stage of being off sick.
-I would go to a company doctor. However my contract says the company doctor will provide the company with details of illness and files etc. This is I do not like.
-I don't think I am being unreasonable. I am providing them weekly certs even though they know I am off for a month from my initial cert. I am answering any calls I receive and questions asked.[/QUOTE]

There are many suggestions made in this thread ranging from "you must go to the company doctor" to "what are you hiding". Some are even suggesting that some of the levelled comments here are anti employer

None of these are helpful or correct. The nature of someones illness is highly sensitive data.

Now it is the Sick Leave policy of YOUR Company that matters and not someone elses, nor someones perception of their sick leave policy (get a copy if you are unsure of the process).

It strikes as particularly odd and inappropriate that a week or two into an illness, that this manager is making phone calls suggesting that your Doctor is not doing his job correctly and pressuring into seeing the company Doctor. I am sure that there is a mechanism that triggers this (it will be stated in YOUR company's policy). I find it very strange that a manager is even making the phone calls.

It is the employer who, if anyone, (ie if it is company policy) should be making such phone calls. Are you working in a small company where the employer and the manager are the one and the same ?

Having said that, one phone call advising of your likely return should be enough (even if placed to the manager as a curtousy to allow for reasonable short term filling arrangements to be put in place whilst you are out).

Some startling statements made about the nature of illnesses and what the Company Doctor can and cannot disclose. "Only limited relevant information should be sought from an employee submitting a medical certificate to account for a period of sick absence. Seeking excessive sensitive personal data in that context is a clear breach of the Data Protection Acts".

The Data Protection Commissioner made a call on this some time ago. Its something that ALL employers should be aware of.

https://www.collierbroderick.ie/info-centre/employment-law/employment-law-articles/data-protection-issues-with-nature-of-illness-on-doctors-certs/

the_syco

bs2014 wrote: »

also I soon a new position advertised for our team that I had not even been told about (I am on a rolling temporary contract so the certainty of a permanent contract would be nice)

Play nice with the company, goto the work doctor, etc.

Or not, and the permanent contract will goto someone else who abides by company policy. If you're awkward now, there's no reason why the company would want to make you permanent.

Dav010

STB. wrote: »

There are many suggestions made in this thread ranging from "you must go to the company doctor" to "what are you hiding". Some are even suggesting that some of the levelled comments here are anti employer

None of these are helpful or correct. The nature of someones illness is highly sensitive data.

Now it is the Sick Leave policy of YOUR Company that matters and not someone elses, nor someones perception of their sick leave policy (get a copy if you are unsure of the process).

It strikes as particularly odd and inappropriate that a week or two into an illness, that this manager is making phone calls suggesting that your Doctor is not doing his job correctly and pressuring into seeing the company Doctor. I am sure that there is a mechanism that triggers this (it will be stated in YOUR company's policy). I find it very strange that a manager is even making the phone calls.

It is the employer who, if anyone, (ie if it is company policy) should be making such phone calls. Are you working in a small company where the employer and the manager are the one and the same ?

Having said that, one phone call advising of your likely return should be enough (even if placed to the manager as a curtousy to allow for reasonable short term filling arrangements to be put in place whilst you are out).

Some startling statements made about the nature of illnesses and what the Company Doctor can and cannot disclose. "Only limited relevant information should be sought from an employee submitting a medical certificate to account for a period of sick absence. Seeking excessive sensitive personal data in that context is a clear breach of the Data Protection Acts".

The Data Protection Commissioner made a call on this some time ago. Its something that ALL employers should be aware of.

https://www.collierbroderick.ie/info-centre/employment-law/employment-law-articles/data-protection-issues-with-nature-of-illness-on-doctors-certs/

Has the op stated that his/her employer implied that his/her GP is not doing their job correctly?

Op. Just noticed that you are on a FTC, long term absences and/or failure to adhere to company policy may effect your chances of being made permanent. Look up FTC’s, if your contract states that UDA does not apply at the end of the term, and the sum of the contracts is less than 4 years, you can be let go at the end of your current contract.

STB.

Dav010 wrote: »

Has the op stated that his/her employer implied that his/her GP is not doing their job correctly?

I gather it was the manager (not the employer). And I am not sure that the company is small enough for them being the one and the same yet.

bs2014 wrote: »

He then said he doesn't think I am getting anywhere with my own GP and I would be better seeing the company GP.

Dav010 wrote: »

Op. Just noticed that you are on a FTC, long term absences and/or failure to adhere to company policy may effect your chances of being made permanent. Look up FTC’s, if your contract states that UDA does not apply at the end of the term, and the sum of the contracts is less than 4 years, you can be let go at the end of your current contract.

Yes this is relevant. But the same sick leave policy will apply to those on FTC's as those on permanent contracts ? Protection of Employees Fixed-term Work Act 2003.

Dav010

STB. wrote: »

I gather it was the manager (not the employer). And I am not sure that the company is small enough for them being the one and the same yet.

Where does it say owner/manager thinks GP is not doing job correctly?

STB.

Dav010 wrote: »

Where does it say owner/manager thinks GP is not doing job correctly?

Quote now added I had to go back and get it. Its a startling statement to make and an overreach for the manager, if the company has its own HR Division.

Wabbit Ears

bs2014 wrote: »

-I don't think I am being unreasonable..

yea, yea you are. As said previously by other posters you come across in your tone as a bit of a nightmare to deal with.

STB.

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

yea, yea you are. As said previously by other posters you come across in your tone as a bit of a nightmare to deal with.

How he/she comes across is irrelevant. If this person has no history of sick absences, then it is not unreasonable.

A lot of people making assumptions here about someone taking the proverbial. The assumption of guilt is truly alive eh.

Wabbit Ears

STB. wrote: »

How he/she comes across is irrelevant. If this person has no history of sick absences, then it is not unreasonable.

A lot of people making assumptions here about someone taking the proverbial. The assumption of guilt is truly alive eh.

I was off sick for two weeks last year and had to see the company doctor. First time I ever had any extended sick leave. I just went as I have no reason to aantagonise my boss or the company. I also took several phone calls regarding when ill be back, again, absolutely no biggie, didn't give it a second thought.

TBH your posts are way way off the norm and extreme in your views. Ive pretty much been ignoring them cos you're just ranting nonsense.

dazed+confused

bs2014 wrote:

My issue with attending the company doctor is I feel this is only to fulfill their own interest. I am not going to be attending both my own and the companies doctors receiving 2 separate treatments. I feel the tone of voice on the phonecalls and the suggestion of sending me to company doctor so soon to be intimidating and of no benefit to me. In fact, they have so many people off sick in our dept atm that 2 temp staff were brought in before I left so resources covering my work is no issue, also I soon a new position advertised for our team that I had not even been told about (I am on a rolling temporary contract so the certainty of a permanent contract would be nice)

Is this a serious suggestion?

I would think it highly unlikely that you will be considered for a permanent position if you are off on sick leave and not cooperating.

Think about it from the employers perspective. What would you do if roles were reversed?

c.p.w.g.w

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did you tell him you recorded the call? If not that’s illegal...also doesn’t it beep on other side or something to say call is recorded?

Ireland is one party consent, as long as OP was party to the conversation, he can record it.

STB.

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

I was off sick for two weeks last year and had to see the company doctor. First time I ever had any extended sick leave. I just went as I have no reason to aantagonise my boss or the company. I also took several phone calls regarding when ill be back, again, absolutely no biggie, didn't give it a second thought.

TBH your posts are way way off the norm and extreme in your views. Ive pretty much been ignoring them cos you're just ranting nonsense.

Two weeks sick leave is not extended sick leave. Its a short term absence.

The sick leave policy of everyone's employer can differ. Is it your company's policy that attendance at the company's doctor regardless of the illness duration is compulsory ? Or are you stating that you gave up your employment rights in order not to antagonise your employer ? Is that why "my posts are way off the norm" ?

You might regard it as a rant, but the policy is there in the first place for the protection of both employee and employer.

Dial Hard

STB. wrote:

Two weeks sick leave is not extended sick leave. Its a short term absence.

Two weeks is not a short-term absence by any means. I've worked in companies where more than three days in an entire 12-month period was an issue, certified or not.

inforfun

bs2014 wrote: »

Without getting into tit for tat arguing
-I haven't refused to go to company doctor (they have only suggested they might send me). I just think it is unreasonable at such an early stage of being off sick.

Maybe.
But they were handed a sick note for 1 month and probably have that in mind when asking you to see the company doctor.

Seeing him might also have the effect that they will get off your back for a while.
The only time i was out long term was because of a broken arm and when i came in with my arm in a cast it was more less straight on: See you in 8 weeks when the cast comes off.

bilbot79

Stheno wrote: »

Op does not have to unless they disclose to the company doctor as per their contract

I think it would be a good idea in the circumstances. We don't always have to exercise our rights to the fullest. Telling someone within the organisation in confidence would go a long way towards a better relationship

antix80

STB. wrote: »

Two weeks sick leave is not extended sick leave. Its a short term absence.

STB I'll agree with other posters and say your advice has some truth, but overall isn't helpful to resolving the op's issue. The op can't stick their head in the ground because if they can't make progress with the issue, losing their job will be the least of their worries. Their mental health could deteriorate (further?).

The good point you made is that the manager shouldn't have said the op isn't making progress with his/her GP. He's probably right, and he probably said it out of frustration. Maybe he genuinely believes a chat with the company doctor would be good for the op but it's not his place to say. But the op needs to keep it in perspective. The manager is just trying to get some clarity.

Saying two weeks isn't extended sick leave is being pedantic and irrelevant to the op who appears to out longer. Extended sick leave can mean different things in different contexts, but my understanding is when you exhaust your sick leave entitlement and continue getting paid at a reduced rate in line with the companies sick leave policy/plan.

The company could decide to ask an employee to visit a company doctor for any number of reasons: Awarding extended sick leave, Pattern of absence, Long absence, maybe the employee let slip they were feeling stresses or had a injury that could be worsened by working... in the ops case it's been suggested/offered because the op has an illness likely to last longer than a month. The employee needs to engage.

mikeymouse

Dial Hard wrote: »

Two weeks is not a short-term absence by any means. I've worked in companies where more than three days in an entire 12-month period was an issue, certified or not.

Op posted this on another thread two weeks ago;
Quote;

Illness benefit process
Hi, I'm off now sick for a month. How long does it take to hear back? The reason is I need to let my employer know so if they pay me they can deduct the prsi element. I'm also concerned I may not get paid as I was only working from sept 17 onwards (did a year prior of a masters unpaid on my own bat)....I have worked for the number of years prior to that. If like to find out asap what if anything I'll get. It just seems posting the IB1 form off to Dublin is like sending it a black hole.
bs2014 is offline Report Post

bs2014

mikeymouse wrote: »

Op posted this on another thread two weeks ago;
Quote;

Illness benefit process
Hi, I'm off now sick for a month. How long does it take to hear back? The reason is I need to let my employer know so if they pay me they can deduct the prsi element. I'm also concerned I may not get paid as I was only working from sept 17 onwards (did a year prior of a masters unpaid on my own bat)....I have worked for the number of years prior to that. If like to find out asap what if anything I'll get. It just seems posting the IB1 form off to Dublin is like sending it a black hole.
bs2014 is offline Report Post

Yes I posted this at the start of my sick time off. So as of now 2.5 weeks off and still no response from illness benefit btw.

mikeymouse

bs2014 wrote: »

Yes I posted this at the start of my sick time off. So as of now 2.5 weeks off and still no response from illness benefit btw.

Apologies, bs2014 ,
I misread post ,I thought you had been off a month at that stage.

antix80

bs2014 wrote: »

Yes I posted this at the start of my sick time off. So as of now 2.5 weeks off and still no response from illness benefit btw.

Hi Op. How are you feeling?

Have you benefited from any advice in this thread, or are things still muddy?

STB.

antix80 wrote: »

STB I'll agree with other posters and say your advice has some truth, but overall isn't helpful to resolving the op's issue. The op can't stick their head in the ground because if they can't make progress with the issue, losing their job will be the least of their worries. Their mental health could deteriorate (further?).

The only issue is whether the employee and the company are following their own sick leave policy. Without seeing that we are all guessing, but assuming it follows some form of template if it is a large enough company. Also unless the OP has a history of illness, then I am failing to see the issue with a 2 week duration.

Mental Health ? I must have missed the part where the OP has disclosed the nature of their illness.

antix80 wrote: »

The good point you made is that the manager shouldn't have said the op isn't making progress with his/her GP. He's probably right, and he probably said it out of frustration. Maybe he genuinely believes a chat with the company doctor would be good for the op but it's not his place to say. But the op needs to keep it in perspective. The manager is just trying to get some clarity.

The manager really has no role other than be informed of when the employee will be fit to return. They certainly should not be questioning the qualifications of a medical professional. This is intrusive. If it is a pattern then I might understand concerns which would more likely be pursued by the employer (not a divisional manager).

antix80 wrote: »

Saying two weeks isn't extended sick leave is being pedantic and irrelevant to the op who appears to out longer. Extended sick leave can mean different things in different contexts, but my understanding is when you exhaust your sick leave entitlement and continue getting paid at a reduced rate in line with the companies sick leave policy/plan.

The company could decide to ask an employee to visit a company doctor for any number of reasons: Awarding extended sick leave, Pattern of absence, Long absence, maybe the employee let slip they were feeling stresses or had a injury that could be worsened by working... in the ops case it's been suggested/offered because the op has an illness likely to last longer than a month. The employee needs to engage.

2 weeks sick leave is not extended. If the company policy is that they set a threshold of 20 days per year at which time you will be referred to their company doctor. This is the period at which it is considered "extended".

Dial Hard wrote: »

Two weeks is not a short-term absence by any means. I've worked in companies where more than three days in an entire 12-month period was an issue, certified or not.

I was explaining extended absences. Not everyone works for companies that have such restrictive sick leave policies.

antix80

STB. wrote: »

Mental Health ? I must have missed the part where the OP has disclosed the nature of their illness.

I said their mental health would deteriorate. I wrote further in brackets if that's actually the reason for the absence. I refuse to ask.

STB. wrote: »

The manager really has no role other than be informed of when the employee will be fit to return.

Yes, and I said you made a good point.

STB. wrote: »

2 weeks sick leave is not extended.

Again, irrelevant to the op and pedantic to argue the definition of the word "extended".

STB.

antix80 wrote: »

Again, irrelevant to the op and pedantic to argue the definition of the word "extended".

It is very relevant if a manager is suggesting referring them to the Company doctor after two weeks.

Short term absences are defined in policies and would normally be 4 weeks or less, whilst long term absence or extended absence would be an absence of more than 4 weeks.

If this is the OP's first illness in the company in 2 years, then it seems to have been handled badly so far. The threats within the thread of protect your job (as they will manage you out the door) are not helpful, whatsoever, other than to suggest that the person needs to ignore the advice of a medical professional and get themselves back to work before they are fit to do so.

If the company do not follow their own policies and an employee suddenly finds their FTC not renewed, then it could be used as the grounds for unfair dismissal.

Strumms

STB. wrote: »

It is very relevant if a manager is suggesting referring them to the Company doctor after two weeks.

Short term absences are defined in policies and would normally be 4 weeks or less, whilst long term absence or extended absence would be an absence of more than 4 weeks.

If this is the OP's first illness in the company in 2 years, then it seems to have been handled badly so far. The threats within the thread of protect your job (as they will manage you out the door) are not helpful, whatsoever, other than to suggest that the person needs to ignore the advice of a medical professional and get themselves back to work before they are fit to do so.

If the company do not follow their own policies and an employee suddenly finds their FTC not renewed, then it could be used as the grounds for unfair dismissal.

100%... so keep everything documented, they sound like a proper shower of cûnts either way. There are ways to engage with the person on sick leave that can enable the company of every bit of information they NEED in order to continue to manage the business successfully and efficiently while respecting the persons situation. There is zero respect being given here. So I’d row back and give them the minimum.

Also if you want to key it up a notch use mental diversion tactics... interrupt the person calling after a couple of minutes with stuff like...

“Actually, I’ve heard on the grapevine your not feeling great yourself, how are you, you sound stressed, are you ok ?”

“Do you think the good weather will hold”

“Will yourself and the family ( key to mention the family ) be going away this year?”

“Your eldest is how old now ?”

They won’t like it, appreciate it, may even feel and think you are being overly personal, good. They are pushing your personal and family boundaries, push theirs... they initiated the call, you are just asking in kind, with a smile on your face, a cheery heart and the best of intentions. Fûck em.

Dav010

STB. wrote: »

It is very relevant if a manager is suggesting referring them to the Company doctor after two weeks.

Short term absences are defined in policies and would normally be 4 weeks or less, whilst long term absence or extended absence would be an absence of more than 4 weeks.

If this is the OP's first illness in the company in 2 years, then it seems to have been handled badly so far. The threats within the thread of protect your job (as they will manage you out the door) are not helpful, whatsoever, other than to suggest that the person needs to ignore the advice of a medical professional and get themselves back to work before they are fit to do so.

If the company do not follow their own policies and an employee suddenly finds their FTC not renewed, then it could be used as the grounds for unfair dismissal.

Wrong on a lot of counts.

Firstly, you don’t get to define what is an extended absence. If the ops employment contract states that company policy is weekly certs and referral to company GP/OH after absence of two or three etc weeks, they are well within their rights to do so. Your argument that this is improper has no basis in employment law and it is wrong for you to advise the op otherwise.

I would suggest you do some research on FTCs, the employer can easily decide not to renew a FTC at the end of its term and will not fear a claim for unfair dismissal as long as the contract contains a clause stating that the UDA legislation does not apply at determination of the contract term. Advising the op to ignore that is bad advice.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/fixed_term_or_specified_purpose_contracts.html

the14thwarrior

I call bulls%it on OP.

there is more to this story

noodler

I'll just but in to say I don't think a weekly phonecall is harassment at all.

Get well OP.