Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

declanflynn

janfebmar wrote: »

declanflynn wrote: »

I guess a blow to the head of a brit with a sleeper would do the job

Charming. As someone else said, it is surprising you are not banned, as they said they reported you.

Put your hard hat on mate

Beasty

declanflynn wrote: »

I guess a blow to the head of a brit with a sleeper would do the job

declanflynn threadbanned

FrancieBrady

Banner yesterday

Stop moaning ffs

janfebmar wrote: »

Charming. As someone else said, it is surprising you are not banned, as they said they reported you.

Lol

There's a felicitous and really brilliant article by the well-known historian Richard Evans in the latest issue of Prospect magazine, that's been mentioned in The Irish Times and Washington Post in the past couple of days. It's very well-worth reading for historical parallels between populists today and in Weimar Germany.

He's really hammering home the significance of the proroguing of parliament, and that populist overthrows are rarely if ever exact copies of former ones - but they all tend to use loopholes in democracy to undermine it. The whole article is well worth soaking up.

Richard Evans,'Britain’s Reichstag Fire moment' (29 August 2019)

As if to highlight the dangers of this piece-by-piece ignoring of democracy by Brexiteers as they rush to get to their promised land, one of the main stories on RTÉ News tonight was that:

Gove refuses to rule out ignoring no-deal Brexit law


First they came...

Blueshoe

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As if to highlight the dangers of this piece-by-piece ignoring of democracy by Brexiteers as they rush to get to their promised land, one of the main stories on RTÉ News tonight was that:

Gove refuses to rule out ignoring no-deal Brexit law


First they came...

Why did the queen sign off on the shutdown?

Because :

It is normal for a new prime minister to ask the monarch to prorogue Parliament so that the government can set out a new legislative agenda. It usually happens every year, resulting in the State Opening of Parliament, which is something akin to the State of the Union, only it involves the queen and a carriage ride and a speech given from a throne. That’s normal here.

Junkyard Tom

Britain is way too diverse, pluralistic, and divided on the issue of Brexit, for any fascist state to develop beyond any appreciable point. A fascist state needs a strong sense of 'one nation' collectivism and Britain doesn't have that.

mad muffin

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1166631368140500992

Is this right? They’re threatening the queen with be heading?

When I looked up this group is says George Soros is their main backer.


BestforBritain
The biggest individual donor is international financier George Soros, a Hungarian-born US citizen, who has given Best for Britain £800,000 in total so far, with £400,000 of that coming since the start of the year through his pro-European Open Society Foundation.

Why is a Hungarian born US citizen a big backer of a UK remain group?


I also found this interesting.

David Cameron never believed he would have to hold an EU referendum because he expected to fall short of an overall majority in the 2015 election, according to Donald Tusk.

Tusk said: “I asked David Cameron, ‘Why did you decide on this referendum, this – it’s so dangerous, so even stupid, you know,’ and, he told me – and I was really amazed and even shocked – that the only reason was his own party.”

Tusk also said he warned Cameron that his decision to hold the referendum was “stupid”.

The former French president François Hollande discloses how, after dinner during an overnight stay at Chequers in September 2015, he tried to persuade Cameron not to hold the referendum.

“Nothing obliged him to hold the referendum when he did,” Hollande said. “This would not be the first time that a commitment made at an election had not been kept afterwards, but he wanted to show he could negotiate successfully with Europeans.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-david-cameron-about-stupid-eu-referendum-bbc


So Cameron never expected this.

But why are the remainers up in arms? Didn’t the UK public vote to leave? Didn’t the UK parliament reject all of Mays proposals?

Isn’t Boris doing what the public and parliament want?

Junkyard Tom

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Britain is way too diverse, pluralistic, and divided on the issue of Brexit, for any fascist state to develop beyond any appreciable point. A fascist state needs a strong sense of 'one nation' collectivism and Britain doesn't have that.

Whatever is happening, Tom, 'fascism' is the wrong word (with all due respect to O'Toole's hugely read article last year). However, it is precisely when a society is divided that populists - for want of a better definition of the current crowd - prioritise cohering them. This almost always entails having some outside enemy, especially one they can claim to be a victim of. Johnson's allegation a fortnight ago that anti-Brexit MPs are guilty of 'a terrible kind of collaboration' with the EU is the new norm in British politics.

Just how long of a hard Brexit will it be before more and more English people are brainwashed into believing that the EU is that enemy and that poor England is the victim? The whole Brexiteer plan falls apart if they haven't got their scapegoat, as I said here two years ago. It is the absolute certainty of all this. Conveniently, about 7 or 8 rightwing oligarchs own most of the British media. And we don't have to have watched Carole Cadwalladr TED talk last April on Facebook's role in the Brexit vote to have a very good idea of how Brexiteers are manipulating social media (just look at the new regs here of late).

As the hardship of a hard Brexit becomes a reality more and more English people will succumb to the great lie of the Brexiteers: it's all the fault of the EU. By the time the Brexiteers are uncovered for the destructive frauds they are, it will be too late.

Junkyard Tom

Deleted User wrote: »

Just how long of a hard Brexit will it be before more and more English people are brainwashed into believing that the EU is that enemy and that poor England is the victim?

No way I can see them getting any real traction with the other half of those who voted saying 'we warned you but you wouldn't listen'.

Junkyard Tom

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

No way I can see them getting any real traction with the other half of those who voted saying 'we warned you but you wouldn't listen'.

I can't see that at all, particularly given that the vast majority of the same 48% of 'Remain' voters so quickly resigned themselves to accepting Brexit and allowing the Brexiteers to define the nature of that mere 'advisory' 2016 Brexit referendum as a hard Brexit in all its destruction.

If they cannot even mobilise in opposition under a single leader now, before Brexit but when its impending consequences are clearer than ever, you can be sure that they will be reluctant to speak up/be accused of 'treason' when the consequences of a hard Brexit are being felt/ when the Europhobia will be at its peak (ultimately, of course, the Brexiteers like all populists will be brought down - but expect enormous scapegoating of the EU/everybody else, violence and, yes, politically motivated deaths on top of the one MP who has already been murdered before they are exposed/get their comeuppance)

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

No way I can see them getting any real traction with the other half of those who voted saying 'we warned you but you wouldn't listen'.

Cal it whatever 'ism' you want, it's clear the British never respected other democracies and now doesn't recognise it's own.
They lost the Chagos Island case in the UN courts recently and just responded by refusing to recognise the court.

Going into dangerous territory no, threatening MP's and refusing to commit to respecting the votes of parliament.

MadYaker

Blueshoe wrote: »

Why did the queen sign off on the shutdown?

Because :

It is normal for a new prime minister to ask the monarch to prorogue Parliament so that the government can set out a new legislative agenda. It usually happens every year, resulting in the State Opening of Parliament, which is something akin to the State of the Union, only it involves the queen and a carriage ride and a speech given from a throne. That’s normal here.

This whole mess has shown to UKs form of "democracy" to be achaic and not fit for purpose. If I lived in the UK that would trouble me deeply as it will continue to be a problem long after brexit is over. The idea that they can hold vaguely worded referendums that aren't legally binding is mental when you think about it.

Blueshoe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Cal it whatever 'ism' you want, it's clear the British never respected other democracies and now doesn't recognise it's own.
They lost the Chagos Island case in the UN courts recently and just responded by refusing to recognise the court.

Going into dangerous territory no, threatening MP's and refusing to commit to respecting the votes of parliament.

Which MP was threatened?

SeaBreezes

Blueshoe wrote: »

Which MP was threatened?

All of them? Step out of line and your fired? Toe the party line and goose step
Like a good mp....

mattser

janfebmar wrote: »

declanflynn wrote: »

I guess a blow to the head of a brit with a sleeper would do the job

Charming. As someone else said, it is surprising you are not banned, as they said they reported you.

You've beaten them into submission JFM. Move away. Leave them to themselves.

SeaBreezes

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Britain is way too diverse, pluralistic, and divided on the issue of Brexit, for any fascist state to develop beyond any appreciable point. A fascist state needs a strong sense of 'one nation' collectivism and Britain doesn't have that.

And yet, here we are...

Blueshoe

SeaBreezes wrote: »

And yet, here we are...

What does that mean?

Blueshoe

SeaBreezes wrote: »

All of them? Step out of line and your fired? Toe the party line and goose step
Like a good mp....

I had to look it up

Padre_Pio

SeaBreezes wrote: »

All of them? Step out of line and your fired? Toe the party line and goose step
Like a good mp....

Every political party does that.

It's why they have a party whip.

Padre_Pio

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Every political party does that.

It's why they have a party whip.

Apparently, they've been threatened with deselection in their constituencies if they don't vote with the government. That's a blanket warning to all Tories.

Peregrinus

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Every political party does that.

It's why they have a party whip.

Yes, but the rule in the Tory party has until now been be that you would lose the whip if you voted against the government on a confidence vote. Vote against the government on other issues, you were exposed to the possiblity of disciplinary action but not automatic loss of the party whip. The Tories used to pride themselves on this; MPs had duties to the country, to their constituencies and to their consciences as well as to the party, and there was room for honest dissent. At least a third of the members of the present cabinet have themselves taken advantage of this and voted against the party whip, mostly within the past 12 months; none of them lost the whip or were expelled from the party.

What has happened now is that Downing Street has decreed that voting against the government on Brexit policy will be treated in the same was as voting no confidence in the government; it will lead to automatic loss of the party whip and an automatic bar on standing as a Tory candidate in future elections. That's a big change, and a dramatic departure from Tory party culture.

FrancieBrady

Blueshoe wrote: »

Which MP was threatened?

Philip Hammond, David Gauke, Dominic Grieve have been specifically told and all other MP's let known that if they vote against the government this weel they will not only lose the whip but will also be deselected.
A threat.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Philip Hammond, David Gauke, Dominic Grieve have been specifically told and all other MP's let known that if they vote against the government this weel they will not only lose the whip but will also be deselected.
A threat.

so much the same way that Paeder Toibin and Carol Nolan lost the Sinn Fein whip?

Peregrinus

Aegir wrote: »

so much the same way that Paeder Toibin and Carol Nolan lost the Sinn Fein whip?

No, not really. Tóibín and Nolan both had the whip suspended for a fixed period for voting against the party line, but neither was suspended indefinitely, neither was expelled and neither was prohibited from seeking or obtaining a nomination as a candidate for the party. They both resigned from the party, which is different.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, not really. Tóibín and Nolan both had the whip suspended for a fixed period for voting against the party line, but neither was suspended indefinitely, neither was expelled and neither was prohibited from seeking or obtaining a nomination as a candidate for the party. They both resigned from the party, which is different.

"Resigned" you say?

In the same way that the three councillors in Wicklow "Resigned"? Did Brian Walsh and Lucinda Creighton resign as well?

I am struggling to see much difference. They were forced out of the party for voting against the party whip which is what is being threatened in the Tory Party.

It's what parties do.

is_that_so

Aegir wrote: »

"Resigned" you say?

In the same way that the three councillors in Wicklow "Resigned"? Did Brian Walsh and Lucinda Creighton resign as well?

I am struggling to see much difference. They were forced out of the party for voting against the party whip which is what is being threatened in the Tory Party.

It's what parties do.

Their resigning was of their own volition. It wasn't forced at all. The context which you've completely ignored here was a social issue that they felt was important to them but their party had a different stance.

VinLieger

Aegir wrote: »

"Resigned" you say?

In the same way that the three councillors in Wicklow "Resigned"? Did Brian Walsh and Lucinda Creighton resign as well?

I am struggling to see much difference. They were forced out of the party for voting against the party whip which is what is being threatened in the Tory Party.

It's what parties do.

Im no fan of SF but they both resigned voluntarily, also SF's policy on the whip has been pretty clear for quite a while and they joined the party well aware of this and still chose to vote how they did, the tories are changing the rules because they have a single seat majority and are refusing to acknowledge they don;t have a mandate for any of the crap they are pulling.

is_that_so

Parties have a clear policy on the whip and rules for going against it.