Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

swampgas

swampgas wrote: »

"Nothing to see here, move along" ?

Johnson/Cummings are pulling out all the stops to prevent their actions being scrutinised and approved by parliament. Threatening to deselect MPs goes beyod removing the whip. They can opt to do that as a party, but to suggest that it isn't part of an overall power play to remove the role of parliament is just deluded.

they aren't removing parliament, they are forcing parliament to make up their minds.

deselecting MPs and expelling them from the party is the same thing. It happened here to Lucinda Creighton and Brian Walsh.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I love the way people try the 'look over there' stunt and totally avoid looking at all that is going on in the UK.

its called context Francis. Something you seem completely unable to understand.

Peregrinus

Blueshoe wrote: »

Boris was elected by the Tory party . No different to how a taoiseach is chosen here.
Did you get s chance to vote for Leo or Enda or any of the others?

An Irish Taoiseach is elected by Dail Eireann. That's signficantly different from the UK practice.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

its called context Francis. Something you seem completely unable to understand.

And the entire 'context' is this UK government has prorogued parliament, threatened MP's in an unprecedented way, targeted individual MP's and their staff, and most dangerously have refused, under scrutiny to committ to following a vote of parliamnet if it goes against them. That is ignoring the rumours that Johnson is also planning to ignore a VONC.

But yeh...Fine Gael/Sinn Fein, you Irish are as bad. :rolleyes:

gmisk

Blueshoe wrote: »

You must have posted the wrong link there. "Out of his depth"
??

In that instance he is clearly trying to belittle an expert in their field....so yes he is out of his depth...the guy is a consultant neurologist and was literally involved in drafting that report.


Below is part of the exchange.


----
Dr David Nicholl, consultant neurologist who took part in drafting Operation Yellowhammer, rings in to ask JRM what level of mortality rate he would be willing to accept in the event of a No Deal Brexit.
===============================
JRM says a doctor in his position should not be "fearmongering".

"I don't think there is any reason to suppose a No Deal Brexit should lead to (an increase) in the mortality rate.

"This is the worst excess of Project Fear."

Dr Nicholl: "Can I remind you I wrote the plans in mitigation?"

JRM: "Well, you didn't write very good plans if you hadn't worked out how to mitigate, had you?

"It's fortunate that they're being written by other people now who are serious about mitigating and not remoaners."

Peregrinus

Aegir wrote: »

its called context Francis. Something you seem completely unable to understand.

I'm not sure the context is helpful to you. You're holding up Sinn Fein and the benchmark of democratic respectability against which the Tory Party should measure itself? The fact that this is a betrayal of Tory values, principles and traditions is fine, as long as it's something vaguely like what Sinn Fein would do?

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And the entire 'context' is this UK government has prorogued parliament, threatened MP's in an unprecedented way, targeted individual MP's and their staff, and most dangerously have refused, under scrutiny to committ to following a vote of parliamnet if it goes against them. That is ignoring the rumours that Johnson is also planning to ignore a VONC.

But yeh...Fine Gael/Sinn Fein, you Irish are as bad. :rolleyes:

Stop looking for drama. It isn't "You Irish are as bad" it is simply that this isn't uncommon and happens elsewhere. The fact that it happens in Ireland is a useful example because, well, this is an Irish forum.

Traditionally, the Tory party has taken a fairly relaxed approach to rebels, Boris is putting an end to this and forcing them to make a decision.

One of three things has to happen, pass the deal, leave with no deal or call the whole thing off. Parliament seems to be completely incapable of deciding which one, so needs to be backed in to a corner to make a decision.

Extreme times require extreme measures.

swampgas

Aegir wrote: »

they aren't removing parliament, they are forcing parliament to make up their minds.

I agree that parliament is paralyzed and has failed to come to any consensus up to now. However if you want parliament to make up its mind you have to give it the opportunity to do so. What has happened here (IMO) is that just as parliament was feeling its back against the wall, and preparing to make its mind up, Johnson pulled the rug out from under it instead. Probably because he didn't like the decision it was about to make.

The political system is a shambles in the UK right now. However it's still the case that Johnson is running roughshod over all convention, and is playing fast and loose with the rules.

Maybe you think that's justified given the circumstances. But it's not normal, it sets a terrible precedent and it will have ramifications for years regardless of what happens next.

Igotadose

Aegir wrote: »

Stop looking for drama.

....
Extreme times require extreme measures.

/irony

These are not extreme times. Stop looking for drama. Repeal article 50, come up with a complete proposal that solves all the problems found over the last 3 years, put it to a vote, if agreed to, trigger article 50. Rather than the 'ready/fire/aim' approach of the last 3 years.

No drama at all then.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm not sure the context is helpful to you. You're holding up Sinn Fein and the benchmark of democratic respectability against which the Tory Party should measure itself? The fact that this is a betrayal of Tory values, principles and traditions is fine, as long as it's something vaguely like what Sinn Fein would do?

And Fine Gael, obviously. No one has called Leo an unelected autocrat though.

Party values are being betrayed left right and centre at the moment because it is extreme times. The Tory party is supposedly the party of big business and free trade, yet it is leaving the EU. It is supposedly the party of bankers and only ever listens to London, yet London has made it very very clear it doesn't want to leave the eu.

Fannying around hoping something miraculous will happen is becoming more and more damaging, the uncertainty needs to end one way or the other.

swampgas

swampgas wrote: »

I agree that parliament is paralyzed and has failed to come to any consensus up to now. However if you want parliament to make up its mind you have to give it the opportunity to do so. What has happened here (IMO) is that just as parliament was feeling its back against the wall, and preparing to make its mind up, Johnson pulled the rug out from under it instead. Probably because he didn't like the decision they were about to make.

The political system is a shambles in the UK right now. However it's still the case that Johnson is running roughshod over all convention, and is playing fast and loose with the rules.

Maybe you think that's justified given the circumstances. But is's not normal, it sets a terrible precedent and it will have ramifications for years regardless of what happens next.

they have been asked to vote on a deal, they voted against it. They were asked to come up with their own options, they failed, they were asked to vote on the deal again, they voted it down.

They have had three years of flip flopping around the issue, it is time to piss or get off the pot.

First Up

Aegir wrote:

and Johnson won every round of voting when it was 100% MPs.

And that should have been enough.

Aegir wrote:

people are looking for something that just isn't there.

It was there when Labour members first elected the wrong Miliband and was then hijacked by the loony left and installed the unelectable Corbyn.

Stop moaning ffs

I think this is fair and timely.

https://twitter.com/abiwilks/status/1168274617951277056?s=21

Calina

Aegir wrote: »

Extreme times require extreme measures.

Such as the suspension of a democratically elected Parliament?

History tends not to look kindly on ends justifying the means.

Pedro K

Blueshoe wrote: »

Boris was elected by the Tory party . No different to how a taoiseach is chosen here.
Did you get s chance to vote for Leo or Enda or any of the others?

The Dail gets to vote on a Taoiseach. It is very different. You're lying.

swampgas

Aegir wrote: »

they have been asked to vote on a deal, they voted against it. They were asked to come up with their own options, they failed, they were asked to vote on the deal again, they voted it down.

They have had three years of flip flopping around the issue, it is time to piss or get off the pot.

I agree, but it looks like Johnson has kicked them off the pot just before they were about make a decision.

Johnson's actions are not those of a man trying to force a decision, he's actually trying to prevent one. There are plans to prevent any legislation being passed that go against what Johnson wants. Preventing Royal Assent. Filibustering in the House of Lords. Editing to add: and suggesting the government could ignore legislation passed by parliament!

Johnson has acted to prevent parliament interfering in his play for autocracy. That makes it a coup, I'd say.

Blueshoe

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I think this is fair and timely.

https://twitter.com/abiwilks/status/1168274617951277056?s=21

Who is this person and why is their opinion relevant?

Blueshoe

Calina wrote: »

Such as the suspension of a democratically elected Parliament?

History tends not to look kindly on ends justifying the means.

It is within the rules. When a new prime minister takes up office parliament is regularly suspended to give time for the new prime minister to put his/her government plans in place .

It's normal, has happened regularly and will happen again.

Stop moaning ffs

Blueshoe wrote: »

Who is this person and why is their opinion relevant?

Who are you and why is yours?

Blueshoe

Pedro K wrote: »

The Dail gets to vote on a Taoiseach. It is very different. You're lying.

Who voted for Boris? This is the UK system. It's only an issue because of who won and the dislike of his actions.

Similar rubbish aimed at the electoral college in the Us when Trump won.

Blueshoe

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Who are you and why is yours?

I'm not posting random people's twitter opinion on boards as if they are a great mind and all should listen.

The great twitter sage

Stop moaning ffs

She makes a valid point though. Corbyn has been painted as the big bad threat to British society. When in fact true real threat was from and is the Tories themselves under unelected beureaucrat Cummings.

Pedro K

Blueshoe wrote: »

Who voted for Boris? This is the UK system. It's only an issue because of who won and the dislike of his actions.

Similar rubbish aimed at the electoral college in the Us when Trump won.

The paid up members of the Tory party voted for Boris. Very different to the every elected representative in the lower house having a vote. So it's not the same, as you stated. You're lying.

swampgas

swampgas wrote: »

I agree, but it looks like Johnson has kicked them off the pot just before they were about make a decision.

Johnson's actions are not those of a man trying to force a decision, he's actually trying to prevent one. There are plans to prevent any legislation being passed that go against what Johnson wants. Preventing Royal Assent. Filibustering in the House of Lords.

Johnson has acted to prevent parliament interfering in his play for autocracy. That makes it a coup, I'd say.

Johnson can appoint two new members to the house of Lords per day, so he doesn't have time to pack it full of Brexiteers. Asking the queen to refuse royal assent, to go against the wishes of the house of commons is unprecedented. He would be asking her to choose between him and the government and is a step too far, as is ignoring a vote of no confidence.

Most of the above is just bluster and if he tries it, would cause a major constitutional crisis that Parliament just would not allow.

If Corbyn has any sense ( which i question) he could get a vote of no confidence though the house, form a coalition of national unity and present it as the viable government. Johnson would have the choice of either recommending this to the Queen and stepping down, or the Queen being forced to act against the advice of her ministers and appoint the government herself.

ohnonotgmail

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

She makes a valid point though. Corbyn has been painted as the big bad threat to British society. When in fact true real threat was from and is the Tories themselves under unelected beureaucrat Cummings.

Nothing new there. Strong and stable government with David Cameron or chaos with Ed Miliband. how has that worked out.

Bannasidhe

Aegir wrote: »

they have been asked to vote on a deal, they voted against it. They were asked to come up with their own options, they failed, they were asked to vote on the deal again, they voted it down.

They have had three years of flip flopping around the issue, it is time to piss or get off the pot.

The Commons reflected the electorate.
Brexit did not pass with 100% of the vote so it stands to reason that Parliament is not 100% in favour of it.

Having a parliament that is split 52%-48% is a fair reflection of the feelings of the electorate. As indeed would having that same split within the Tory Party.

What is happening is the 48% who wished to remain are being utterly ignored. Not one single concession is being made towards those who wished to remain in the EU as Johnson drives the UK head first to a No Deal that he does not have a clear mandate for (unless you can demonstrate that that is what every one of the 52% voted for... and from speaking to Leave voters in the UK I know that isn't possible).

To achieve this he is pulling cynical stunts and issuing threats.

That is not democracy.

The role of Parliament is to reach a consensus where yes, no-one gets everything they want, but through negotiation they get what they - and the electorate - can accept and live with.

Johnson's tactics are deeply dividing the UK at the precise moment in time they need to all be at least holding the same hymn book if not singing from the same sheet.

Pedro K

Pedro K wrote: »

The paid up members of the Tory party voted for Boris. Very different to the every elected representative in the lower house having a vote. So it's not the same, as you stated. You're lying.

it isn't that different. The Dial only got to vote on the person that Fine Gael chose and that was little more than a rubber stamp. 47 members didn't even bother voting.

Eric Cartman

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

She makes a valid point though. Corbyn has been painted as the big bad threat to British society. When in fact true real threat was from and is the Tories themselves under unelected beureaucrat Cummings.

Corbyn is measurably worse than anyone else at that table. Im still convinced the Labour Party gave him the leadership specifically to keep themselves out of government till the Brexit debacle is over. The British economy and sterling would be doing far more backflips under him than under mad Boris.

Stop moaning ffs

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Corbyn is measurably worse than anyone else at that table. Im still convinced the Labour Party gave him the leadership specifically to keep themselves out of government till the Brexit debacle is over. The British economy and sterling would be doing far more backflips under him than under mad Boris.

There are far more capable potential leaders in labour and it is mad they don’t do something about him. This week will be interesting though. People will be inclined to row in behind a unity government led by him as the deranged stuff Johnson and Cummings are up to get worse. And There’s more of it to come.

Blueshoe

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

She makes a valid point though. Corbyn has been painted as the big bad threat to British society. When in fact true real threat was from and is the Tories themselves under unelected beureaucrat Cummings.

Fishing for likes and notice I'd imagine.

Terry Christian is another interesting tweeter.

Would like to see the older generation who voted for Brexit to die if there is a vaccine shortage

People's opinions on twitter should stay on twitter