Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

FrancieBrady

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Aye the "concessions" that were tacked on and used as an excuse for a revote while the bulk of the treaty remained... "vote yes for jobs!" the proverbial golden carrot on a stick to try sway voters... Its actually a bit sick

Again, what is undemocratic about political parties campaigning, whether they are telling the truth or not?

What is the correct way to do things in your opinion?

lawred2

Aegir wrote: »

Actually Lisbonwent more like this.

Ireland; we voted no to Lisbon becaus we don’t want abortions and we don’t want to be forced to join a European army.

Eu: what the **** are you on about? That has nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty.

Ireland: oh, ok. So we don’t look stupid can we change it and vote again?

Eu: ok, we’ll add some pointless words in there and you tell everyone it will bring jobs and prosperity.

Ireland: done

:rolleyes:

that's cringe

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your usual anti Irish bile again.

Usual anti Irish bile?

Please explain. Calling people thick ***** based on the way they vote is a perfectly acceptable view point. Apparently. Nothing anti Irish about it.

"FrancieBrady wrote: »

"the concerns that were addressed in the second Lisbon vote were:

1.The possibility that Ireland would lose its member in the European
Commission
2. Its military neutrality,
4. Control over taxation
5. Concerns about ethical and social issues.

All legitimate concerns for anybody to have.

Nobody 'told' anybody anything. Different political parties campaigned on issues as they do in every election under the sun.

Rubbish, it was about abortion and conscription in to an Eu army, which apparently now everyone is in favour of.

Nothing actually changed between the first and second versions, just some bland wording out in that was little more than a placebo.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

Usual anti Irish bile?

Please explain. Calling people thick ***** based on the way they vote is a perfectly acceptable view point. Apparently. Nothing anti Irish about it.



Rubbish, it was about abortion and conscription in to an Eu army, which apparently now everyone is in favour of.

Nothing actually changed between the first and second versions, just some bland wording out in that was little more than a placebo.

Nonsense...the text was altered. If you think it was 'bland' that is your prerogative, the Irish electorate were satisfied with it.
And we know what you think of the electorate. You try to tell us on almost every thread you get onto, like you did on this one.

knipex

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Subsequent referendums in 5 other countries were cancelled when they seen the French and Dutch results, it came back as the Lisbon treaty were it was ratified in most countries(apart from Ireland were we got to vote on it.. And we all know what happened there) the EU turned back to Monnet style behind the scenes further integration... You'll notice a trend with the EU from that image, anything that goes against it is either ignored or made to vote again

What's laughable is it masquerades as some world leader in democracy and even has the neck to lecture others about it.

I can remember quite well how they were frothing at the mouth over Mugabe and his one man candidate election... Meanwhile back in Ireland the plebs had to vote again on Lisbon..

Im not sure what you are getting at.

No Irish voter was forced to either vote again or vote YES or for theat matter NO. No Irish voter was told to do anything.

In the initial referendum the government of the day assumed the referendum was a done deal and those opposed to it run a campaign which was full of miss-truths, misrepresentations and innuendo. An exit pole showed that people voted no for a variety of reasons which had no relation to the actual treaty.

No one trusted the government so they went to the EU and said can you put something in writing that says that the treaty will not affect, abortion, direct taxation, European army or our commissioner. EU said fine and issued a document. Government came home and re ran the referendum.

knipex

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your absolutely arrogant snivelling derision about this country fully exposed in your contributions to this thread.

He is actually correct..

Hobosan

People are hysterical about this... on an Irish forum. There's no reason why Britain couldn't leave the EU successfully, so long as people could consider the consequences and act rationally. But their politicians and media decided very early on that hysteria would be the tone with which all debate would take place.

For that reason, Brexit is already a failure. Its too bad because if the UK can't successfully leave the EU now, then that pretty much seals the deal that nobody will ever be able to extricate themselves from the EU in the future.

Even if you are for the EU, it is worth seeing this go well for Britain. Leaving the EU should always be on the table, as International pacts have been known to lead to the worst wars in the history of humankind, in spite of what the incessant cries against nationalism would lead some to believe.

knipex

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nonsense...the text was altered. If you think it was 'bland' that is your prerogative, the Irish electorate were satisfied with it.
And we know what you think of the electorate. You try to tell us on almost every thread you get onto, like you did on this one.

Francie.. Your wrong, not a single word of the treaty was changed,. if it had then it would have had to be ratified by every state again.

There was an add-on document., all be it legally binding, that clarified some matters but made no change to the treaty. It did not have to as the matters it addressed were not affected by the treaty in the first place.

kunst nugget

knipex wrote: »

He is actually correct..

Yeah, as cynical as it is, I actually can't see anything wrong with what he said.

ArchXStanton

knipex wrote: »

Im not sure what you are getting at.

No Irish voter was forced to either vote again or vote YES or for theat matter NO. No Irish voter was told to do anything.

In the initial referendum the government of the day assumed the referendum was a done deal and those opposed to it run a campaign which was full of miss-truths, misrepresentations and innuendo. An exit pole showed that people voted no for a variety of reasons which had no relation to the actual treaty.

No one trusted the government so they went to the EU and said can you put something in writing that says that the treaty will not affect, abortion, direct taxation, European army or our commissioner. EU said fine and issued a document. Government came home and re ran the referendum.

Plenty of mistruths from the yes side... Vote yes for jobs being one of them at a time when Ireland was deep in recession, bit of a scumbag move, I can remember Lenihan being asked were was the jobs that were promised and he said oh what jobs, they were never promised... Only for a picture of him in front of a vote yes for jobs sign with the thumbs up to show up, embarrassing

ArchXStanton

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Plenty of mistruths from the yes side... Vote yes for jobs being one of them at a time when Ireland was deep in recession, bit of a scumbag move, I can remember Lenihan being asked were was the jobs that were promised and he said oh what jobs, they were never promised... Only for a picture of him in front of a vote yes for jobs sign with the thumbs up to show up, embarrassing

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/news-photo/minister-for-finance-brian-lenihan-td-states-that-a-yes-news-photo/834473642

lawred2

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Plenty of mistruths from the yes side... Vote yes for jobs being one of them at a time when Ireland was deep in recession, bit of a scumbag move, I can remember Lenihan being asked were was the jobs that were promised and he said oh what jobs, they were never promised... Only for a picture of him in front of a vote yes for jobs sign with the thumbs up to show up, embarrassing

So FF pulling such a stunt means what exactly?

ArchXStanton

Hobosan wrote: »

People are hysterical about this... on an Irish forum. There's no reason why Britain couldn't leave the EU successfully, so long as people could consider the consequences and act rationally. But their politicians and media decided very early on that hysteria would be the tone with which all debate would take place.

For that reason, Brexit is already a failure. Its too bad because if the UK can't successfully leave the EU now, then that pretty much seals the deal that nobody will ever be able to extricate themselves from the EU in the future.

Even if you are for the EU, it is worth seeing this go well for Britain. Leaving the EU should always be on the table, as International pacts have been known to lead to the worst wars in the history of humankind, in spite of what the incessant cries against nationalism would lead some to believe.

Bit of a hotel California thing going on with the EU.... And oh lookey the peace project/trading bloc now wants to militarise ... What could go wrong, it reeks of empire building

kunst nugget

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Plenty of mistruths from the yes side... Vote yes for jobs being one of them at a time when Ireland was deep in recession, bit of a scumbag move, I can remember Lenihan being asked were was the jobs that were promised and he said oh what jobs, they were never promised... Only for a picture of him in front of a vote yes for jobs sign with the thumbs up to show up, embarrassing

Campaigning that voting Yes would lead to greater prosperity hence more jobs is not the same as saying if you vote Yes, we're promised x number of jobs. That's really dense. Is this really the level you're going to?

ArchXStanton

lawred2 wrote: »

So FF pulling such a stunt means what exactly?

That they lied to people to get them to vote yes ... Nothing out of character there I suppose

Panrich

So........

Are the Brits leaving or what?

ArchXStanton

kunst nugget wrote: »

Campaigning that voting Yes would lead to greater prosperity hence more jobs is not the same as saying if you vote Yes, we're promised x number of jobs. That's really dense. Is this really the level you're going to?

It was a **** move to do at that time, you go on ahead and condone that behaviour if you want.. I won't be

ArchXStanton

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Bit of a hotel California thing going on with the EU.... And oh lookey the peace project/trading bloc now wants to militarise ... What could go wrong, it reeks of empire building

In fairness, I don’t see the Eu army proposals as a means to militarise, more a play by the French to stop the rest of Europe buying Lockheed aircraft.

lawred2

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Bit of a hotel California thing going on with the EU.... And oh lookey the peace project/trading bloc now wants to militarise ... What could go wrong, it reeks of empire building

and we all know there's nothing the Brits like less than empire building

lawred2

ArchXStanton wrote: »

That they lied to people to get them to vote yes ... Nothing out of character there I suppose

indeed

so what's your point re Brexit?

FrancieBrady

knipex wrote: »

Francie.. Your wrong, not a single word of the treaty was changed,. if it had then it would have had to be ratified by every state again.

There was an add-on document., all be it legally binding, that clarified some matters but made no change to the treaty. It did not have to as the matters it addressed were not affected by the treaty in the first place.

Yes, apologies. The Treaty wasn't changed, the change was the accompanying legal guarantees on legitimate concerns of the electorate.

Forgive me, our resident anti Irish poster riled me a bit. Perhaps he might like to read this.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/11/second-brexit-referendum-ireland-lisbon-polls

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Forgive me, our resident anti Irish poster riled me a bit.]

Keep saying it as much as you like Francie, it will never be true.

meeeeh

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Hobosan wrote: »

People are hysterical about this... on an Irish forum. There's no reason why Britain couldn't leave the EU successfully, so long as people could consider the consequences and act rationally. But their politicians and media decided very early on that hysteria would be the tone with which all debate would take place.

For that reason, Brexit is already a failure. Its too bad because if the UK can't successfully leave the EU now, then that pretty much seals the deal that nobody will ever be able to extricate themselves from the EU in the future.

Even if you are for the EU, it is worth seeing this go well for Britain. Leaving the EU should always be on the table, as International pacts have been known to lead to the worst wars in the history of humankind, in spite of what the incessant cries against nationalism would lead some to believe.

Bit of a hotel California thing going on with the EU.... And oh lookey the peace project/trading bloc now wants to militarise ... What could go wrong, it reeks of empire building

That's completely hysterical overreaction and pretty well explains the level of debate in Uk. Eu wants UK out now to deal with actual issues like Italian economy and not participate in the ****storm of English frustrations from loss of an empire.

Britain first didn't want to join EU (or it's predecessors) them they decided they want to join and were insulted when French blocked them, tgen they had to get in and now they want to get out. And hard Brexiteers who three years ago wanted customs union now shout they want hard exit. EU is far from perfect but this is not EU's doing, it's culmination of UK rulling classes blaming everything that went wrong in the country on EU because EU is handy scapegoat. This is the result and it is not EU's fault that Britain is tearing itself apart. Plus UK is one of the most unequal societies in Europe and if you ignore the education and any other integration of large part of population then they become stupid and vote that way.

J Mysterio

dudara wrote: »

On a less serious note, I am frankly embarrassed for Britain. This is the country which fielded a great navy, built an empire and held back Germany in the early days of WWII. They’ve currently spent the last 3 years squabbling amongst themselves and with everyone else. Where is the famous British resolve?

I personally think Brexit is a bad move, but I do wish they’d get on with it so that we can work through it and come out the other side.

In my mind, it’s also no coincidence that this anti-EU sentiment is emerging strongly at the time when the last of the WWII survivors are dying off. The EU (and it’s predecessors) was in part an effort to prevent WWII from ever happening again. Most of Europe has had over 70 years of peace. But wheels turn and memories move on.

Paraphrasing Merkel here but, some time ago, she said something along the lines of 'we will know if the lessons of world war 2 were learned when the last of those who survived it have died'

More recently at Davos:

“And we today... have to ask ourselves a very pertinent question: have we learned the lessons of history? We haven’t really” she said.

“The lesson that we drew at the formation of the United Nations [after the Second World War] was a lesson of multilateralism – an answer of cooperation.”

“We’ve known since the Roman empire, since the Chinese wall, only shutting ourselves off doesn’t help to protect your borders,”
“You also need good cooperation with your neighbours, good agreements that are respected”

joe40

Hobosan wrote: »

People are hysterical about this... on an Irish forum. There's no reason why Britain couldn't leave the EU successfully, so long as people could consider the consequences and act rationally. But their politicians and media decided very early on that hysteria would be the tone with which all debate would take place.

For that reason, Brexit is already a failure. Its too bad because if the UK can't successfully leave the EU now, then that pretty much seals the deal that nobody will ever be able to extricate themselves from the EU in the future.

Even if you are for the EU, it is worth seeing this go well for Britain. Leaving the EU should always be on the table, as International pacts have been known to lead to the worst wars in the history of humankind, in spite of what the incessant cries against nationalism would lead some to believe.

One of the main sticking points for Britain negotiating a withdrawal agreement to suit was the good friday agreement. An internationally binding treaty.
This was glossed over as a non issue by the leave side in the referendum, that right now is the main sticking point, nothing to do with the EU.

Tell me how

joe40 wrote: »

One of the main sticking points for Britain negotiating a withdrawal agreement to suit was the good friday agreement. An internationally binding treaty.
This was glossed over as a non issue by the leave side in the referendum, that right now is the main sticking point, nothing to do with the EU.

There is no element of the process of leaving which the UK have shown themselves to be competent in.

• Forming a cohesive national (UK) position.
• Giving due diligence to the Irish Border question.
• The awareness of their obligations to the GFA.
• Considering implications for JIT deliveries.
• Honouring their obligations to their outstanding debt.
• Being respectful and diplomatic to their counterparts.
• Owning the document which they signed off on.

They have failed abysmally in every one of these elements. Anyone blaming the EU for these failings is to far committed to either their hatred of the EU or their loyalty to the Brexit cause that evidence is of no importance to them.

Best case scenario from this point on? UK leave with no Deal, they realise within a short period it was a mistake, and they look to rejoin. 2nd best case scenario, they have another extension in which they hold a GE with Labour Lib Dems winning after platforming a 2nd referendum with 3 options. Remain, agreed WA, No Deal and they vote to remain.

FrancieBrady

Just when you think Brexiteers have hit maximum embarrassment we get this. Utterly insane stuff.

ArchXStanton

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Just when you think Brexiteers have hit maximum embarrassment we get this. Utterly insane stuff.

<SNIP>

I would have loved to have seen the EUs high priest himself, the rabid, fanatical, bucktooth federalist Verhofstadts face when that speech was made. If you think that's bad you should check him out in full flight... A raving maniac

Tell me how

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I would have loved to have seen the EUs high priest himself, the rabid, fanatical, bucktooth federalist Verhofstadts face when that speech was made. If you think that's bad you should check him out in full flight... A raving maniac

He seemed to be fairly ok with it.

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1146752235176714241

Does she realise how f*cking ridiculous she sounded talking about colonies leaving empires????

Blueshoe

I'm actually happy enough to see the Brexit party ruffling feathers in the EU parliament.

The EU is turning into a creditors and debtors club. The creditors will make the decisions for the rest. Veto rights and voting systems will eventually change and the Germans and French will decide the path.