Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Commons reflected the electorate.
Brexit did not pass with 100% of the vote so it stands to reason that Parliament is not 100% in favour of it.

Having a parliament that is split 52%-48% is a fair reflection of the feelings of the electorate. As indeed would having that same split within the Tory Party.

What is happening is the 48% who wished to remain are being utterly ignored. Not one single concession is being made towards those who wished to remain in the EU as Johnson drives the UK head first to a No Deal that he does not have a clear mandate for (unless you can demonstrate that that is what every one of the 52% voted for... and from speaking to Leave voters in the UK I know that isn't possible).

To achieve this he is pulling cynical stunts and issuing threats.

That is not democracy.

The role of Parliament is to reach a consensus where yes, no-one gets everything they want, but through negotiation they get what they - and the electorate - can accept and live with.

Johnson's tactics are deeply dividing the UK at the precise moment in time they need to all be at least holding the same hymn book if not singing from the same sheet.

There is an easy way to stop this, by dusting off the previously rejected agreement and accepting it.

That at least respects the wishes of the majority, by leaving the EU and gives the remainers the chance to have serious input on the future relationship.

The problem at the moment isn't that it is 52/48. or even 50/50, it is that it is more like 33/33/33 so nothing is going to get even close to passing.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

Stop looking for drama. It isn't "You Irish are as bad" it is simply that this isn't uncommon and happens elsewhere. The fact that it happens in Ireland is a useful example because, well, this is an Irish forum.

Traditionally, the Tory party has taken a fairly relaxed approach to rebels, Boris is putting an end to this and forcing them to make a decision.

One of three things has to happen, pass the deal, leave with no deal or call the whole thing off. Parliament seems to be completely incapable of deciding which one, so needs to be backed in to a corner to make a decision.

Extreme times require extreme measures.

You are again missing the point. All three or four events together don't happen nor with the indication that the crisis is going to deepen.

Stop moaning ffs

Blueshoe wrote: »

Fishing for likes and notice I'd imagine.

I

I’m not sure anyone really does that in the political sphere. Who knows tho

Pedro K

Aegir wrote: »

it isn't that different. The Dial only got to vote on the person that Fine Gael chose and that was little more than a rubber stamp. 47 members didn't even bother voting.

So you'll agree, then, that it is not "no different", as blueshoe claimed?

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/CollignonJos/status/1166710460349067264

Bannasidhe

Aegir wrote: »

There is an easy way to stop this, by dusting off the previously rejected agreement and accepting it.

That at least respects the wishes of the majority, by leaving the EU and gives the remainers the chance to have serious input on the future relationship.

The problem at the moment isn't that it is 52/48. or even 50/50, it is that it is more like 33/33/33 so nothing is going to get even close to passing.

I agree. But then it is the role of the PM to find consensus. May was always known to be incapable of creative thinking with a tendency to dig her heels in - her utter failure to genuinely look outside the Tory Party for support - plus over reliance on the hard -line DUP (who wrote the book on saying No, and ironically 'represent' a section of the UK that voted to Remain) was a disaster for the UK.

Johnson is all creative thinking which he combines with bully boy tactics. Unlike May, however, who I think actually was (ineptly) trying to do the best for the UK, I think Johnson is only interested in doing the best for Johnson and his fantasies of himself as Churchill's heir.
At the rate he is going the British will be fighting themselves on the beaches while the many will be screwed by the few.

Blueshoe

https://twitter.com/terrychristian/status/1167434247961010176?s=09

Bannasidhe

Blueshoe wrote: »

Fishing for likes and notice I'd imagine.

Terry Christian is another interesting tweeter.

Would like to see the older generation who voted for Brexit to die if there is a vaccine shortage

People's opinions on twitter should stay on twitter

And Piers Morgan is having a go at him.
One rent a gob complaining about another rent a gob.

However, it does demonstrate just how polarised the UK is - and what is Johnson doing to unite his country?

swampgas

Aegir wrote: »

Asking the queen to refuse royal assent, to go against the wishes of the house of commons is unprecedented. He would be asking her to choose between him and the government and is a step too far, as is ignoring a vote of no confidence.

Most of the above is just bluster and if he tries it, would cause a major constitutional crisis that Parliament just would not allow.

I'm extremely uneasy about anyone in an executive position, like Donald Trump, or Boris Johnson, getting away with saying outrageous things with the excuse that it's (probably?) just bluster. In the top job, words matter. Johnson and his allies are choosing their words carefully, and are trying to normalise what should be beyond the pale. Any normal PM would have sacked a minister who suggested that the government could simply ignore laws passed by the parliament. Gove said it, and wasn't contradicted. IMO Gove was flying a kite to see just how far they can break the rules and get away with it.

If Corbyn has any sense ( which i question) he could get a vote of no confidence though the house, form a coalition of national unity and present it as the viable government. Johnson would have the choice of either recommending this to the Queen and stepping down, or the Queen being forced to act against the advice of her ministers and appoint the government herself.

Corbyn really needs to up his game. Unfortunately I don't think he has the capacity to do so.

Blueshoe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And Piers Morgan is having a go at him.
One rent a gob complaining about another rent a gob.

However, it does demonstrate just how polarised the UK is - and what is Johnson doing to unite his country?

Piers Morgan is insufferable.

Boris is doing nothing to unite the UK. That is an impossible task. One way or another it eventually has to come to a head.

That's when the fireworks will begin.

swampgas

swampgas wrote: »

I'm extremely uneasy about anyone in an executive position, like Donald Trump, or Boris Johnson, getting away with saying outrageous things with the excuse that it's (probably?) just bluster. In the top job, words matter. Johnson and his allies are choosing their words carefully, and are trying to normalise what should be beyond the pale. Any normal PM would have sacked a minister who suggested that the government could simply ignore laws passed by the parliament. Gove said it, and wasn't contradicted. IMO Gove was flying a kite to see just how far they can break the rules and get away with it.

Corbyn really needs to up his game. Unfortunately I don't think he has the capacity to do so.

I think we can all agree that Johnson is not a normal PM and in normal times, would be nowhere the top seat.

I don't like the guy and I don't like his methods, but I can see why he is doing it. It could well be that he does unite the country, but in a way he doesn't expect.

Corbyn is so far our of his depth it is unbelievable. He'd make a great Student union leader, but he is nowhere near competent enough to lead the opposition.

Bannasidhe

Blueshoe wrote: »

Piers Morgan is insufferable.

Boris is doing nothing to unite the UK. That is an impossible task. One way or another it eventually has to come to a head.

That's when the fireworks will begin.

It's only impossible when hardliners are allowed to call the shots.

Kidchameleon

Anyone saying Boris is not going to unite the country obviously did not listen to the opening speech of his priemiership

Blueshoe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's only impossible when hardliners are allowed to call the shots.

May offered deals. All voted down.
Time for a new approach.
.

swampgas

Aegir wrote: »

I think we can all agree that Johnson is not a normal PM and in normal times, would be nowhere the top seat.

I don't like the guy and I don't like his methods, but I can see why he is doing it. It could well be that he does unite the country, but in a way he doesn't expect.

I can only hope so. Whatever about the UK's relationship with Europe needing a reset, the UK's relationship with itself is what really needs fixing. And that has to come from within. Fix the UK, and the EU-UK relationship will be fixable as well.

For now though I only see things getting a lot worse before there is any chance of them getting better. And maybe things have to get much worse to force significant political reform. I'm not optimistic though.

Corbyn is so far our of his depth it is unbelievable. He'd make a great Student union leader, but he is nowhere near competent enough to lead the opposition.

Even allowing for the very negative press he gets, I suspect that's pretty much the truth.

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Anyone saying Boris is not going to unite the country obviously did not listen to the opening speech of his priemiership

Ah well, sure if he said it in a speech, that's it so. Brexit solved...close thread..we all live happily ever after.

FrancieBrady

swampgas wrote: »

I can only hope so. Whatever about the UK's relationship with Europe needing a reset, the UK's relationship with itself is what really needs fixing. And that has to come from within. Fix the UK, and the EU-UK relationship will be fixable as well.

For now though I only see things getting a lot worse before there is any chance of them getting better. And maybe things have to get much worse to force significant political reform. I'm not optimistic though.

Brexit is only a symptom of a wider problem. The UK's English centricity has been exposed.

swampgas

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Brexit is only a symptom of a wider problem. The UK's English centricity has been exposed.

True, but England itself is hopelessly divided. Politics has been so badly debased that I don't think anything short of a small revolution can fix it.

FrancieBrady

swampgas wrote: »

True, but England itself is hopelessly divided. Politics has been so badly debased that I don't think anything short of a small revolution can fix it.

I think Johnson is leading a coup to try and fix it. A very British coup, but a coup all the same.

Stop moaning ffs

Election looking likely. Cabinet meeting this afternoon.

swampgas

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think Johnson is leading a coup to try and fix it. A very British coup, but a coup all the same.

“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”
― Otto von Bismarck

Perhaps the only option open to any Prime Minister right now is not just to think outside the box, but to act outside of it too (to mangle a metaphor).

The system has broken. I don't think another election will fix it. Maybe if Johnson starts smashing things up someone more sensible can follow behind and use the space he might have created to actually make some sensible reforms. Or the UK might just slide towards anarchy or autocracy. Risky times.

Blueshoe

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Election looking likely. Cabinet meeting this afternoon.

Who has the power to call an election?

Stop moaning ffs

Blueshoe wrote: »

Who has the power to call an election?

PM but opposition leader has to agree. Obviously he will. He said jut today he wants one

Stop moaning ffs

https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1168488875075035137

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Brexit is only a symptom of a wider problem. The UK's English centricity has been exposed.

you've said that a million times.

Care to explain it, because the usual complaint is that it is London Centric and Brexit certainly isn't due to London.

Blueshoe

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

PM but opposition leader has to agree. Obviously he will. He said jut today he wants one

Who do pollsters think would win?

Stop moaning ffs

Blueshoe wrote: »

Who do pollsters think would win?

That’s anyones guess right now

Blueshoe

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That’s anyones guess right now

Interesting stuff. I'm watching politics live right now. Owen Jones on now. I might turn it off

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Blueshoe wrote: »

Who has the power to call an election?

Not the government anymore. Needs a parliamentary vote. Another stupidity of the deal brought in with Lib Dems and the Cons.

Either 2/3 of the MPs vote for an election or there’s a vote of no confidence. I don’t think the other parties want an election now so rather than vote no confidence they might internally elect another government.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Blueshoe wrote: »

Who do pollsters think would win?

Tories would win right now, according to most polls.