Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

First Up

blinding wrote:

The , To Leave means No deal . Just get on and get out . Its blindingly obvious .

Off you go.

MadYaker

blinding wrote: »

The , To Leave means No deal . Just get on and get out .
Its blindingly obvious .

That’s not what Boris and Farage said in the referendum campaign, they said they’d get a great deal. UK would be like Norway etc. If you look at interviews and debates from the campaign nobody mentions a no deal exit. When you combine that fact with the fact that the public voting overwhelmingly for MPs in favor of a deal, it’s impossible to argue that a no deal exit is the will of the people or in anyway democratic.

Once again it’s the Tory party ****ing the country over to try and save the party from being split by the pro and anti brexit factions.

is_that_so

blinding wrote: »

The Eu can come up with a deal acceptable to Boris Johnson’s government . This would be done for the good of the 26 Counties . The 26 counties will be re-maining in the Eu .

They are the ones who want to leave. They have a deal, which they signed but don't like, a deal that came from the EU trying to determine what they wanted. They are not going to get a new one in the 60 odd days remaining, certainly not if they just keep crossing bits off the WA.

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is NO (or not near enough) support for a No Deal...not in government and not in the polls.

Leave the Eu , won the referendum = Bye bye Eu .

Its surprising that for the sake of 26 Counties the Eu does not want to come up with a deal acceptable to Boris Johnson's government .

First Up

I heard Rabb this morning repeat the delusional theory that the EU still hopes Brexit will be cancelled and that "No deal" gives them some bargaining power.

They are badly mistaken on that but probably won't realise it until it is too late.

blinding

MadYaker wrote: »

That’s not what Boris and Farage said in the referendum campaign, they said they’d get a great deal. UK would be like Norway etc. If you look at interviews and debates from the campaign nobody mentions a no deal exit. When you combine that fact with the fact that the public voting overwhelmingly for MPs in favor of a deal, it’s impossible to argue that a no deal exit is the will of the people or in anyway democratic.

Once again it’s the Tory party ****ing the country over to try and save the party from being split by the pro and anti brexit factions.

I suppose nobody believed that the Eu would play so fast and lose with the interests of the 26 Counties .

It’s hard to believe that the Eu cares so little about the 26 Counties . Its as if its of no importance to them .

MadYaker

blinding wrote: »

I suppose nobody believed that the Eu would play so fast and lose with the interests of the 26 Counties .

It’s hard to believe that the Eu cares so little about the 26 Counties . Its as if its of no importance to them .

I’ve lost you now? The EU has stood by us the entire time.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

blinding wrote: »

I suppose nobody believed that the Eu would play so fast and lose with the interests of the 26 Counties .

It’s hard to believe that the Eu cares so little about the 26 Counties . Its as if its of no importance to them .

They seem to have our back.

blinding

is_that_so wrote: »

They are the ones who want to leave. They have a deal, which they signed but don't like, a deal that came from the EU trying to determine what they wanted. They are not going to get a new one in the 60 odd days remaining, certainly not if they just keep crossing bits off the WA.

Then just leave without a deal obviously .

If the Eu even at this late stage wants to come up with something acceptable to Boris Johnson’s Government , then well and good . this would obviously be best for the 26 Counties .

It really is a no-brainer for the Eu to do this .

Stop moaning ffs

First Up wrote: »

I heard Rabb this morning repeat the delusional theory that the EU still hopes Brexit will be cancelled and that "No deal" gives them some bargaining power.

They are badly mistaken on that but probably won't realise it until it is too late.

Echoes the lie from Johnson yesterday that negotiations are on going.
Eu have said there are no negotiations. Downing Street leak confirms there’s no negotiations and it’s all waffle to run down the clock.
Cummings furious at leak.

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1168785842627891201?s=21

gmisk

blinding wrote: »

Leave the Eu , won the referendum = Bye bye Eu .

Its surprising that for the sake of 26 Counties the Eu does not want to come up with a deal acceptable to Boris Johnson's government .

What possible deal would be acceptable that the EU can come up with? They already came up with a fair deal which May brought to parliament and was rejected multiple times.
What is BJ suggesting? The use of non existent technology seems to be one of the things being vaguely alluded to....

The UK government can point fingers all they want and blame the EU, but by the looks of it and all the reports you see on the news they arent really trying to negotiate a deal at the minute, the phrase constantly going around is they are holding talks about talks...all with less than 60 days to go, if the UK crash out with a no deal they have absolutely no one to blame but themselves.

MadYaker

blinding wrote: »

Then just leave without a deal obviously .

If the Eu even at this late stage wants to come up with something acceptable to Boris Johnson’s Government , then well and good . this would obviously be best for the 26 Counties .

It really is a no-brainer for the Eu to do this .

They already agreed a deal. If Johnson says he doesn’t like it it’s his job to come up with a different deal.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

Leave the Eu , won the referendum = Bye bye Eu .

Its surprising that for the sake of 26 Counties the Eu does not want to come up with a deal acceptable to Boris Johnson's government .

Nobody in the EU sees Ireland as two parts. It is what it always was an interconnected island where what happens in one part affects the other.

The UK invoked the result of the referendum (democracy? = CHECK).
The EU accepted it (democracy? = CHECK)
Both negotiated a deal (democracy? = CHECK)
Both agreed a deal (democracy = CHECK)
One small party scuppered that deal (democracy? = FAIL)
EU sticks consistently to agreed deal (democracy? = CHECK0

Status* EU awaits the UK (democracy? = CHECK)
UK fights among themselves.

blinding

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Echoes the lie from Johnson yesterday that negotiations are on going.
Eu have said there are no negotiations. Downing Street leak confirms there’s no negotiations and it’s all waffle to run down the clock.
Cummings furious at leak.

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1168785842627891201?s=21

The Eu does not seem interested in negotiations . They do not seem in any way concerned about the 26 Counties . Very worrying times .

blinding

MadYaker wrote: »

They already agreed a deal. If Johnson says he doesn’t like it it’s his job to come up with a different deal.

The old deal is not acceptable to Johnson . The Eu is not interested in real negotiations .

No Deal is all that is left . The Eu is behaving very poorly in the interests of the 26 Counties .

downcow

Is it the arrogance of Barnier that is the problem.
against what most remainers thought possible, Merkel and Macron have both been pragmatic and moved the positions to allow for more honest negotiations. Barnier seems to arrogant and seems to think changing your mind is a sign of weakness - quite the contrary.

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody in the EU sees Ireland as two parts. It is what it always was an interconnected island where what happens in one part affects the other.

The UK invoked the result of the referendum (democracy? = CHECK).
The EU accepted it (democracy? = CHECK)
Both negotiated a deal (democracy? = CHECK)
Both agreed a deal (democracy = CHECK)
One small party scuppered that deal (democracy? = FAIL)
EU sticks consistently to agreed deal (democracy? = CHECK0

Status* EU awaits the UK (democracy? = CHECK)
UK fights among themselves.

A General Election is the way to go . Re-Moaners suddenly taking to the hills at the thought of a General Election:eek::eek::eek:

Looks like re-monaners are afraid of the Electorate .

Peregrinus

blinding wrote: »

Then just leave without a deal obviously .

If the Eu even at this late stage wants to come up with something acceptable to Boris Johnson’s Government , then well and good . this would obviously be best for the 26 Counties .

Honestly, it's like we're on a phone call to the nineteenth century.

It would obviously be best for "the 26 counties" for the EU to come up with something accepting to Johnson's government? Seriously? A pretty basic requirement for "best" is that the EU's position should be acceptable to us. Which it is.

In the end, we cannot prevent the British government of the day from imposing a hard border on Ireland. But it is never, ever going to be in our best interests to agree to that being done. And as long as Johnson's government refuses to make a Withdrawal Agreement which honours the no-hard-border guarantee, it will never, ever be in our interest to make a WA that Johnson's government will agree to.

The UK government must stand over its no-hard-border guarantee, and it must accept responsibility for delivering it. Until then, the UK is not at the races. If Johnson's government won't do that, then Members of Parliament need to stop squabbling, put on their big person pants, fire Johnson and instal a government led by somebody who takes the UK seriously and believes it needs to act like a proper grown-up democratic country.

is_that_so

downcow wrote: »

Is it the arrogance of Barnier that is the problem.
against what most remainers though, Merkel and Macron have both been pragmatic and moved the positions to allow for more honest negotiations. Barnier seems to arrogant and seems to think changing your mind is a sign of weakness - quite the contrary.

One can only consider changing one's mind if there is something worth exploring. To date there has been none.

First Up

blinding wrote:

No Deal is all that is left . The Eu is behaving very poorly in the interests of the 26 Counties .

The 26 counties is in a single market with 26 countries. That'll help.

mrbrianj

blinding wrote: »

Then just leave without a deal obviously .

If the Eu even at this late stage wants to come up with something acceptable to Boris Johnson’s Government , then well and good . this would obviously be best for the 26 Counties .

It really is a no-brainer for the Eu to do this .

Why dont the UK just leave? why even wait till Oct 31st? They dont think they really need a deal - WTO and all that, so why all the hassle?

Unless they want access to our single market.....but that does come with some rules.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Is it the arrogance of Barnier that is the problem.
against what most remainers thought possible, Merkel and Macron have both been pragmatic and moved the positions to allow for more honest negotiations. Barnier seems to arrogant and seems to think changing your mind is a sign of weakness - quite the contrary.

How have they 'moved positions'?

Merkel got Johnson to admit that it was a problem for him to solve. She toyed with him. He was a naive political lightweight in Berlin tbh.

knipex

blinding wrote: »

Its surprising that for the sake of 26 Counties the Eu does not want to come up with a deal acceptable to Boris Johnson's government .

Why ??

The primary role for the negotiators and the EU is to protect the integrity of the EU, its members and its institutions INCLUDING the Republic of Ireland.

The UK cannot even agree on what it wants. They were happy with the WA, then they would be happy with the WA without eh backstop, then .... Some of the Brexiteers will accept nothing but a hard Brexit.

Some want a deal that would trash the integrity of the EU and its institutions and let the UK run riot through the rules and principles that form its very core
laughing at the members who pay their dues, and obey the rules.


Its like trying to negotiate with a 2 year old that's not 100% sure what it wants just that pulling all the notes out fo you wallet an throwing them in a fire is fun.

blinding

Peregrinus wrote: »

Honestly, it's like we're on a phone call to the nineteenth century.

It would obviously be best for "the 26 counties" for the EU to come up with something accepting to Johnson's government? Seriously? A pretty basic requirement for "best" is that the EU's position should be acceptable to us. Which it is.

In the end, we cannot prevent the British government of the day from imposing a hard border on Ireland. But it is never, ever going to be in our best interests to agree to that being done. And as long as Johnson's government refuses to make a Withdrawal Agreement which honours the no-hard-border guarantee, it will never, ever be in our interest to make a WA that Johnson's government will agree to.

The UK government must stand over its no-hard-border guarantee, and it must accept responsibility for delivering it. Until then, the UK is not at the races. If Johnson's government won't do that, then Members of Parliament need to stop squabbling, put on their big person pants, fire Johnson and instal a government led by somebody who takes the UK seriously and believes it needs to act like a proper grown-up democratic country.

No one in the UK is going to put up a hard border .

Most people in Britain would love to give the 6 Counties to Leo . I’d say they’d have job to find him to hand over his present .:eek:

Spanish Eyes

The EU is IMV prepared to look at things again if, and only if the UK comes up with a credible alternative to the Backstop.

UK hasn't come up with any great ideas on that front has it? EU is loyal to International Treaties, but the UK doesn't appear to care much.

I don't know what will happen, but if an election can happen somehow, given the constraints of the FTPA, and say the Tories get a decent working majority, maybe a border in the Irish Sea (ditch the DUP) and a NI special economic zone or something will work.

Time to crack on..... again.

blinding

knipex wrote: »

Why ??

The primary role for the negotiators and the EU is to protect the integrity of the EU, its members and its institutions INCLUDING the Republic of Ireland.

The UK cannot even agree on what it wants. They were happy with the WA, then they would be happy with the WA without eh backstop, then .... Some of the Brexiteers will accept nothing but a hard Brexit.

Some want a deal that would trash the integrity of the EU and its institutions and let the UK run riot through the rules and principles that form its very core
laughing at the members who pay their dues, and obey the rules.


Its like trying to negotiate with a 2 year old that's not 100% sure what it wants just that pulling all the notes out fo you wallet an throwing them in a fire is fun.

Apparently the Eu and the 26 Counties don’t want a No Deal . Surely if this is true then they must come up with a deal acceptable to Boris Johnson's government . It takes two sides to make a deal .

knipex

blinding wrote: »

No one in the UK is going to put up a hard border .

Most people in Britain would love to give the 6 Counties to Leo . I’d say they’d have job to find him to hand over his present .:eek:

So all this to prevent free movement but the UK is going to leave one of its borders wide open for anyone to cross ??

All this for the UK to take back control but the UK is going to leave one of its borders wide open for anyone to bring anything they can get into the republic into the UK ?

Are you really that naive ? Or do you just think the rest of us are idiots..

Stop moaning ffs

Once again for the cheap seats.
Every EU head and Merkel and Macron and Varadkar have said. Repeatedly.

The moment the UK come up with realistic alternatives, they’ll be happy to reopen the agreement to implement them.

The UK have no alternatives and haven’t presented any.

Because there aren’t any.


That’s on the UK government.

It’s not on the EU



You’d imagine if they really wanted the agreement changed they’d present their work. They haven’t. They don’t have any viable realistic ideas. As they don’t exist.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

Apparently the Eu and the 26 Counties don’t want a No Deal . Surely if this is true then they must come up with a deal acceptable to Boris Johnson's government . It takes two sides to make a deal .

They don't want the UK to leave at all, and they don't want a No deal.

However, what the loony fringe of Brexiteers didn't countenance in their nostalgic Empire day dreams is that the EU will do whatever is necessary to protect it's integrity and survival.

Which side do you want to see win there by the way?

gmisk

blinding wrote: »

No one in the UK is going to put up a hard border.

Most people in Britain would love to give the 6 Counties to Leo. I’d say they’d have job to find him to hand over his present .:eek:

What is the border going to be then? How is it going to be solved? With this non existent technology? What is it? When will it be invented?
Whats the dig at Leo about? Bizarre
I am not sure the DUP would be exactly thrilled about that....and last I heard there votes were needed and they are very much in bed with BJ and JRM.