Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

You know what, Theresa May must be loving this. Boris and Moggy had all the answers a few weeks back, when bringing her down

She looked very pleased with herself in parliament yesterday. Sitting next to Ken Clarke was top level trolling.

skinny90

why not have a referendum to decide whether or not to have another referendum on whether or not they leave the EU:o

McMurphy

InTheShadows wrote: »

Churchill was a racist and bigot.

Is he not BoJos hero?

First Up

Deleted User wrote:

I know just highlighting how even that small disruption, at the ports, is enough to scupper their thoughts of an easy technological solution.

Huge ports like Singapore and Hong Kong run smoothly with almost everything done with technology. The ports in NI and Britain already use technology for non-EU traffic.

The objections to doing so between Britain and NI are purely ideological but politics is the art of the possible and everything has a price.

BadTurtle

InTheShadows wrote: »

Churchill was a racist and bigot.

Thanks for last century's headlines. That noise you heard was the point sailing over your head by the way.

Brits hold Churchill up as a guiding light the same way Americans do Washington or Lincoln. Attacking his family wouldve been tantamount to high treason a few years or even months ago. Now debate and hostility has weathered the uneducated masses down to with us or against us, no humanity, no reasoning, no middle ground, just Brexit or die. The country is ripping itself to pieces and this turning on Churchills relative is like a summary in microcosm.

davedanon

First Up wrote: »

Huge ports like Singapore and Hong Kong run smoothly with almost everything done with technology. The ports in NI and Britain already use technology for non-EU traffic.

The objections to doing so between Britain and NI are purely ideological but politics is the art of the possible and everything has a price.

Aaaaand, back to the nonsense again. Vague, blasé and short on detail. Ideology has nothing to with it. A 300 mile switchback border with hundreds and hundreds of crossing points cannot be dealt with by technology. People who actually know what they're talking about have looked at it again and again, and said it won't work.

But of course, your mind is made up already. It's 'ideological', and so you take that and work backwards. It's nonsense.

First Up

davedanon wrote:

Aaaaand, back to the nonsense again. Vague, blasé and short on detail. Ideology has nothing to with it. A 300 mile switchback border with hundreds and hundreds of crossing points cannot be dealt with by technology. People who actually know what they're talking about have looked at it again and again, and said it won't work.


But of course, your mind is made up already. It's 'ideological', and so you take that and work backwards. It's nonsense.

I think you misunderstand my point.

davedanon

How so?

davedanon

davedanon wrote: »

How so?

He's saying that level of tech is impossible across the land crossings

davedanon

Ah, you said between Britain and NI. Soz, I thought you were talking about the Irish border.

MadYaker

The speaker should be able to force the PM to answer questions. What’s the point if he can just ignore the questions put to him?

Lady Spangles

BadTurtle wrote: »

Thanks for last century's headlines. That noise you heard was the point sailing over your head by the way.

Brits hold Churchill up as a guiding light the same way Americans do Washington or Lincoln. Attacking his family wouldve been tantamount to high treason a few years or even months ago. Now debate and hostility has weathered the uneducated masses down to with us or against us, no humanity, no reasoning, no middle ground, just Brexit or die. The country is ripping itself to pieces and this turning on Churchills relative is like a summary in microcosm.

First of all, I think you over-estimate how much esteem British people have for Churchill. He was a useless PM (in peacetime) and more and more Brits are waking up to how vile he actually was. Meanwhile, it's the Tory party itself that has turned on Soames (who is widely recognised as a Tory bastard like any other Tory bastard, rather than being revered as some other bastard's grandson). That's not the same thing as the British people turning on Soames. It's BoJo who's done this, not the people.

Meanwhile, the government's tearing itself to pieces over a referendum that was fought on lies and misinformation. The recent revelations about Cambridge Analytica, who were up to their eyeballs in the Brexit Referendum, have shown just how deep those lies went and how the hostility was stirred up and exacerbated at every turn. Now we have a mini-dictator openly using undemocratic means to force through a no deal Brexit.

If democracy still means anything in the UK, they need that people's referendum.

BadTurtle

Lady Spangles wrote: »

First of all, I think you over-estimate how much esteem British people have for Churchill. He was a useless PM (in peacetime) and more and more Brits are waking up to how vile he actually was. Meanwhile, it's the Tory party itself that has turned on Soames (who is widely recognised as a Tory bastard like any other Tory bastard, rather than being revered as some other bastard's grandson). That's not the same thing as the British people turning on Soames. It's BoJo who's done this, not the people.

Meanwhile, the government's tearing itself to pieces over a referendum that was fought on lies and misinformation. The recent revelations about Cambridge Analytica, who were up to their eyeballs in the Brexit Referendum, have shown just how deep those lies went and how the hostility was stirred up and exacerbated at every turn. Now we have a mini-dictator openly using undemocratic means to force through a no deal Brexit.

If democracy still means anything in the UK, they need that people's referendum.

Hardly. Churchills ability to lead in peacetime has never been vital to his legacy in the UK. Leading them to victory in WW2 is far more iconic to the types that vote leave than any long term successful goals achieved, the same way military victory is lauded in the US. It's ths same mindset. Bojo is the current figurehead for right and hard right voters to get behind because hes so adamant about leaving, which is what they want. Anything he says goes, and expelling Soames has given them license to attack. Take a quick glance at Twitter and you'd know that, he is being eviscerated as the biggest traitor of all because of his ties to this period of their history they view as intrinsic to their national identity.

Seth Brundle

https://twitter.com/haveigotnews/status/1169195236280733696

Lady Spangles

BadTurtle wrote: »

Hardly. Churchills ability to lead in peacetime has never been vital to his legacy in the UK. Leading them to victory in WW2 is far more iconic to the types that vote leave than any long term successful goals achieved, the same way military victory is lauded in the US. It's ths same mindset. Bojo is the current figurehead for right and hard right voters to get behind because hes so adamant about leaving, which is what they want. Anything he says goes, and expelling Soames has given them license to attack. Take a quick glance at Twitter and you'd know that, he is being eviscerated as the biggest traitor of all because of his ties to this period of their history they view as intrinsic to their national identity.

Twitter isn't really representative of Britain as a nation though. As for Churchill, as a Brit myself, I can assure you events like the Bengal Famine and the miners of Tonypandy increasingly discolour the rosy view of Churchill. The media and the Tories still love him, of course. But the regular folk, especially on the left naturally, really don't hold him in much regard. Or his grandson.

I have no doubt the angry Brexiteers on Twitter are tearing up Soames, however. That's really not something I'm all that concerned about. Stopping a no deal Brexit is the key thing.

paw patrol

Lady Spangles wrote: »

First of all, I think you over-estimate how much esteem British people have for Churchill.

bar a few communists and twitter progressive types who like to judge the past on standards of today - Churchill is held in the highest esteem possible by the UK public.

To say otherwise is just waffle.

screamer

I think Boris is going to find this is a backstab rather than a backstop for him. He’s going to be effectively neutralized, and forced to get a deal through by the parliament he tried to shut down. He won’t get the breathing space of an election either. You couldn’t make it up.

Annasopra

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

SF turning up would be entirely pointless.
No party and no mp would vote alongside them. On any issue but especially not in such an important one as this.

Their presence would be utterly pointless and the British would lose their minds if they did, SFIRA interfering in British democracy.
Even though they have a right to as elected MPs. That would be forgotten in the uproar though.

Nah most of uk wouldnt care if they did

Annasopra

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Enough of the Moggy hate, he's a class act

He's a gobsh ite

El_Duderino 09

Peregrinus wrote: »

The only way that the Brexit party can "support" Boris in "increasing" his majority (I think you mean getting a majority; right now he's running a government with a minority of 43) is by not standing in the election. If they stand at all, they split the hard brexit vote and take votes from the Tories.

They might agree to stand aside, if Johnson commits the Tories to a no-deal Brexit.

But of course doing that will demoralise the parliamentary party, a large majority of which believes no-deal Brexit to be a disaster, and will alienate middle-of-the-road voters who either want Brexit or regard it as inevitable, but still cherish such old-fashioned virtues as fresh food, jobs, solvency, national self-respect and adequate supplies of medication. And alienating voters is not a good way to win a majority.

Yes you’re right, I mean get an majority. The Brexit party will not only take votes from the conservatives, it will also take pro Brexit labour votes and hand any seats it picks up, back to the conservatives. It’s perfectly conceivably that they will take labour seats in the north east, for example.

I think the Lib Dem’s will be the other beneficiaries but I’m pretty sure we’re looking at another term with conservatives in power (through coalition).

davedanon

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yes you’re right, I mean get an majority. The Brexit party will not only take votes from the conservatives, it will also take pro Brexit labour votes and hand any seats it picks up, back to the conservatives. It’s perfectly conceivably that they will take labour seats in the north east, for example.

I think the Lib Dem’s will be the other beneficiaries but I’m pretty sure we’re looking at another term with conservatives in power (through coalition).

You are forgetting that with the treatment of the likes of Clarke and Soames, the Tories have just alienated huge swathes of of their moderate support, in the south and Scotland. Johnson and Cummings are taking a huge gamble, essentially betting the farm on a completely unknowable outcome.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/04/boris-johnson-electoral-gamble-wreck-tory-party

MadYaker

Up until now I didn't think Boris was winging it but now it really looks like he is. He looks flustered and out of his depth.

declanflynn

MadYaker wrote: »

Up until now I didn't think Boris was winging it but now it really looks like he is. He looks flustered and out of his depth.

Its funny how pressure and a defeat can seem to change a person's physical appearance, the pm looks drained in the last few days

davedanon

There are two schools of thought. One is that Boris and his gang are hopelessly incompetent, blustering bullies.

The other is that it's all part of a cunning masterplan, probably the brainchild of Dominic Cummings, to stampede Labour into an election that will be fought on a 'parliament vs the will of the people' basis.

Anyone read the reports about a drunk Cummings reeling around the corridors of the HoC last night and abusing Jeremy Corbyn?

I know which option I'm going for.

Gusto and a can do attitude, Boris old chum

davedanon

davedanon wrote: »

There are two schools of thought. One is that Boris and his gang are hopelessly incompetent, blustering bullies.

The other is that it's all part of a cunning masterplan, probably the brainchild of Dominic Cummings, to stampede Labour into an election that will be fought on a 'parliament vs the will of the people' basis.

Anyone read the reports about a drunk Cummings reeling around the corridors of the HoC last night and abusing Jeremy Corbyn?

I know which option I'm going for.

Except that the opposition are well aware of that particular pitfall and taking a wide berth

Boris et al have played themselves into a very blue corner

FrancieBrady

davedanon wrote: »

There are two schools of thought. One is that Boris and his gang are hopelessly incompetent, blustering bullies.

The other is that it's all part of a cunning masterplan, probably the brainchild of Dominic Cummings, to stampede Labour into an election that will be fought on a 'parliament vs the will of the people' basis.

Anyone read the reports about a drunk Cummings reeling around the corridors of the HoC last night and abusing Jeremy Corbyn?

I know which option I'm going for.

Maybe pretending to be drunk is part of the plan?

davedanon

Deleted User wrote: »

Exceot that the opposition are well aware of that particular pitfall and taking a wide berth

Biris et al have played themselves into a very blue corner

Yes, thankfully. The parliamentary Labour party has ruled out an election until at least 1st November. They want to make Boris go cap in hand to the EU looking for an extension.

davedanon

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe pretending to be drunk is part of the plan?

If he's getting his political instincts from old episodes of Yes, Minister.

El_Duderino 09

davedanon wrote: »

You are forgetting that with the treatment of the likes of Clarke and Soames, the Tories have just alienated huge swathes of of their moderate support, in the south and Scotland. Johnson and Cummings are taking a huge gamble, essentially betting the farm on a completely unknowable outcome.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/04/boris-johnson-electoral-gamble-wreck-tory-party

It’s unknowable to an extent but here are some things we do know. For example we know the cons are most likely to win. They will lose votes to Lib Dem’s, snp and Brexit. But so will labour. Cons get back any seats they lose to Brexit party but also get any seats Brexit take from labour (+DUP if necessary). They only have 12 seats to lose in Scotland so it’s significant but not in comparison to England.

So cons are almost certainly going to be the only party that can form a government albeit through coalition.

So it’s a shot to nothing. This parliament is dead as he has no majority. Chances are he can get a majority by holding an election. Free money for schools, a pledge about money for the NHS, a lot of Churchillian bluster, over the top chaps, spirit of he blitz and give Fritz a fan’s good thrashing, a chicken for every pot etc

The papers are overwhelmingly Tory with the exception of the mirror, guardian and independent. BJ is the only one who can win the election, do why not go for it?