Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

knipex

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Not really. UK needs to deal with the pain of No Deal and slash everything on the EU doorstep. Undermine it at every single opportunity, with Washington for its clear hostile acts towards it for trying to leave and threatening to supply chains to disrupt medicine.

The EU and its abuse if supply chains in its quest to avoid healthy competition has to be viewed as no longer a close "partner".

Lets see.

The UK leaves the EU, It leaves the single market, it leaves the customs union.

BUT

The consequences of the this, the lack of access to the single market and the customs union, the fact that the UK no longer has access to the free trade agreements between the EU and other countries,is the EU's fault ???

First Up

davedanon wrote:

If he's getting his political instincts from old episodes of Yes, Minister.

I listened to some of last night's HoC on the radio and it sounded more like Spitting Image.

davedanon

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It’s unknowable to an extent but here are some things we do know. For example we know the cons are most likely to win. They will lose votes to Lib Dem’s, snp and Brexit. But so will labour. Cons get back any seats they lose to Brexit party but also get any seats Brexit take from labour (+DUP if necessary). They only have 12 seats to lose in Scotland so it’s significant but not in comparison to England.

So cons are almost certainly going to be the only party that can form a government albeit through coalition.

So it’s a shot to nothing. This parliament is dead as he has no majority. Chances are he can get a majority by holding an election. Free money for schools, a pledge about money for the NHS, a lot of Churchillian bluster, over the top chaps, spirit of he blitz and give Fritz a fan’s good thrashing, a chicken for every pot etc

The papers are overwhelmingly Tory with the exception of the mirror, guardian and independent. BJ is the only one who can win the election, do why not go for it?

That's all true, but did he plan on losing his first vote and being humiliated in the Commons? Was it necessary to purge much-admired Tory grandees like Soames and Clarke? It's a high-risk strategy that has Cummings' fingerprints all over it, and he's a dangerous fanatic. They couldn't be playing this any worse.

A Johnson win with a workable majority that allows him to ditch the DUP and negotiate a NI-only backstop is probably the best option for us. Corbyn isn't much of an alternative, although he's not the loony-left boogieman the Tory press make him out to be. But he's a Leaver, too, only he thinks he can disengage from the neo-liberal, globalist (not in the Soros dogwhistle sense) EU so he can establish a socialist paradise in Britain.

knipex

knipex wrote: »

Lets see.

The UK leaves the EU, It leaves the single market, it leaves the customs union.

BUT

The consequences of the this, the lack of access to the single market and the customs union, the fact that the UK no longer has access to the free trade agreements between the EU and other countries,is the EU's fault ???

Obviously

davedanon

davedanon wrote: »

That's all true, but did he plan on losing his first vote and being humiliated in the Commons? Was it necessary to purge much-admired Tory grandees like Soames and Clarke? It's a high-risk strategy that has Cummings' fingerprints all over it, and he's a dangerous fanatic. They couldn't be playing this any worse.

A Johnson win with a workable majority that allows him to ditch the DUP and negotiate a NI-only backstop is probably the best option for us. Corbyn isn't much of an alternative, although he's not the loony-left boogieman the Tory press make him out to be. But he's a Leaver, too, only he thinks he can disengage from the neo-liberal, globalist (not in the Soros dogwhistle sense) EU so he can establish a socialist paradise in Britain.

Corbyn would also ditch NI

Irishmale0399

Lads what happens if BJ goes to Brussels and they say no extension or only an extension of 60 months is on the table???

davedanon

They've already indicated they would grant an extension in the event of an election, I think.

ancapailldorcha

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Lads what happens if BJ goes to Brussels and they say no extension or only an extension of 60 months is on the table???

The former won't happen. There is no sign that it will. If it's the latter, I fail to see how he'd have any choice but I don't see why the EU would want to drag this out that long. A 6-12 months is more likely. Time to facilitate a GE or a People's Vote.

Irishmale0399

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The former won't happen. There is no sign that it will. If it's the latter, I fail to see how he'd have any choice but I don't see why the EU would want to drag this out that long. A 6-12 months is more likely. Time to facilitate a GE or a People's Vote.

But surely the question has to be;
1. Will they ever decide what they want??
2. Will he ever get his GE or Peoples Vote off the ground??


Surely its up to the EU to now say....X is D-day and we will not be talking anymore. At this point they are taking the mickey.....3 PMs and still no better.

briany

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Lads what happens if BJ goes to Brussels and they say no extension or only an extension of 60 months is on the table???

Well, first of all, I don't think the EU would offer an extension that long. I mean that would be another 5 years of the Brexit Party coming to Brussels to heckle and take up room at the bar.

Secondly, it's not entirely up to Johnson. Any extension would have to be mutually agreed by the EU legislature and the UK legislature. It would, after all, be a change of law on both side. If Johnson were still in charge, I would expect him to advocate against whatever he brought back, making it clear he didn't want to go in the first place.

The mooted extension period is until Jan 31st, but we really don't know what the EU would be prepared to offer, if anything at all. We all know that the UK will just waste any further time given, anyway. So, even if given a 5 year extension, they will not use that time to calmly unpick the problems inhibiting the UK from leaving the EU. They will say, "Phew, 59 months where we don't have to think about that sh*t.".

ancapailldorcha

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

But surely the question has to be;
1. Will they ever decide what they want??
2. Will he ever get his GE or Peoples Vote off the ground??


Surely its up to the EU to now say....X is D-day and we will not be talking anymore. At this point they are taking the mickey.....3 PMs and still no better.

The current government has no majority. It's dying by the day. An election is imminent. A 6-month extension would facilitate this.

joseywhales

When Rory Stewart gets kicked out, a relatively young politician who never steps out of line and a couple of months after contesting the party leadership, you know the party is crumbling.

Irishmale0399

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The current government has no majority. It's dying by the day. An election is imminent. A 6-month extension would facilitate this.

Even with a majority they couldnt get it over the line. Its all roundabouts....they are not blocking No Deal, they are delaying it.


For them to get what they want it will need the EU to change the Back Stop or do away with it, which they have so far refused to do.



So we have 2 options.....Revoke A50 or accept No Deal

gmisk

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Even with a majority they couldnt get it over the line. Its all roundabouts....they are not blocking No Deal, they are delaying it.


For them to get what they want it will need the EU to change the Back Stop or do away with it, which they have so far refused to do.



So we have 2 options.....Revoke A50 or accept No Deal

What alternatives are the conservatives proposing? (Genuine ones, not pie in the sky options using non existent technology)

Irishmale0399

gmisk wrote: »

What alternatives are the conservatives proposing? (Genuine ones, not pie in the sky options using non existent technology)

Thats my point, Covney said it this morning, they have offered nothing. Doubt at this stage its going to change between now and the end of Jan. 2020.

Irishmale0399

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Even with a majority they couldnt get it over the line. Its all roundabouts....they are not blocking No Deal, they are delaying it.


For them to get what they want it will need the EU to change the Back Stop or do away with it, which they have so far refused to do.



So we have 2 options.....Revoke A50 or accept No Deal

No, they just need to not rely on the DUP

briany

Deleted User wrote: »

No, they just need to not rely on the DUP

Aren't there a contingent of the Conservatives who've said they wouldn't accept the WA, with or without a backstop?

Kidchameleon

May has nothing to be laughing about. She is a traitor and the very reason this mess is where its at

ancapailldorcha

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Even with a majority they couldnt get it over the line. Its all roundabouts....they are not blocking No Deal, they are delaying it.


For them to get what they want it will need the EU to change the Back Stop or do away with it, which they have so far refused to do.



So we have 2 options.....Revoke A50 or accept No Deal

There isn't a Parliamentary majority for either as we've seen. Therefore, the most likely course of action is a GE, ideally with an extension from the EU27.

briany

briany wrote: »

Aren't there a contingent of the Conservatives who've said they wouldn't accept the WA, with or without a backstop?

They would be enough labour votes to carry. And if Labour get in same for enough Tory

joseywhales

Kidchameleon wrote: »

May has nothing to be laughing about. She is a traitor and the very reason this mess is where its at

I mean essentially she was right, it was her deal or no deal, so now it's no deal. At least her deal was an actual deal as opposed to the imaginary deal that Boris hopes for but is impossible. At least she didn't lie about it.

declanflynn

Kidchameleon wrote: »

May has nothing to be laughing about. She is a traitor and the very reason this mess is where its at

17.4 million Brits caused this mess mate

davedanon

Why is she a traitor? She did her best, and did get a deal, regardless of its shortcomings.


Why do you care, anyway, unless you are actually British?

davedanon

declanflynn wrote: »

17.4 million Brits caused this mess mate

17.4 million Brits that were misinformed, manipulated and lied to by a bunch of people who ran a fraudulent campaign.

Kidchameleon

davedanon wrote: »

Why do you care, anyway, unless you are actually British?

You first...

Kidchameleon

declanflynn wrote: »

17.4 million Brits caused this mess mate

Nope, 17.4 voted to leave. If she had of taken them out in March, this mess would not be ongoing.

declanflynn

Kidchameleon wrote: »

declanflynn wrote: »

17.4 million Brits caused this mess mate

Nope, 17.4 voted to leave. If she had of taken them out in March, this mess would not be ongoing.

Ye dont have the bottle to leave old chap, depaffel is in to even money to be the shortest serving PM ever, I hope he stays long enough to go to the EU to request an extension, hes coming cap in hand to Leo next week, the last days of an empire

Kidchameleon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Nope, 17.4 voted to leave. If she had of taken them out in March, this mess would not be ongoing.

OK so tell me, given that they were repeatedly told by the Leave Campaign that there would be an exit deal.

What deal should she have taken them out with, which covered all red lines?

davedanon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You first...

I didn't call anyone a traitor.

davedanon

The only way May could have taken them out in March would have been to crash out.

But she obviously cared too much about the fate of her country to do that.