Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Peregrinus

Yes. And they promised that the UK would remain part of a "free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey". That's the Single Market (Iceland) and the Customs Union (Turkey), folks.

The truth is that the Leave campaigners made a variety of inconsistent statements about what leaving would and wouldn't entail. After the referendum was over, they claimed the right to pick and choose between them, deeming some statements to be part of the mandate created by the vote of the people, and others not to be. The idea that their choice of the mandate they would like to have should be subject to any kind of scrutiny or ratification by the people, or by their representatives in Parliament, is regarded in the mad, mad world of Brexitry as antidemocratic.
Quite why the Brexiter elite have the authority to decree what people voted for and what they didn't vote for is never explained.

InTheShadows

The Brexit party are going to do very well in the upcoming election.

Don't be surprised if Boris decides to resign and join them in the coming weeks as the conservatives are been shown up as anti democratic cowards now.

Peregrinus

InTheShadows wrote: »

The Brexit party are going to do very well in the upcoming election.

Not on their current polling figures, they aren't. They'd need to at least double their vote share before they'd have any chance of picking up more than a handful of seats.

InTheShadows wrote: »

Don't be surprised if Boris decides to resign and join them in the coming weeks as the conservatives are been shown up as anti democratic cowards now.

Since Johnson has been at the forefront, enthusiastically leading them into the antidemocratic cowardly market segment, I imagine he'll choose to stay where he is, as Leader of the Party and Prime Minister In Name Only. Whether the party will be equally happy with him remains to be seen.

Junkyard Tom

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The referendum was to leave

A group of 100 people are together on a cruise ship and are faced with a vote on whether to leave, or not. 72 decide to participate in the election. 37 of the 72 vote to leave with 35 voting to stay - leave wins narrowly. 10 of the 37 leavers are idiots/have a lifeboat/believe they will grow gills, and want to go immediately.

Do you think the 10 who want to leave immediately have the right to make the other 90 jump into the water?

declanflynn

InTheShadows wrote: »

The Brexit party are going to do very well in the upcoming election.

Don't be surprised if Boris decides to resign and join them in the coming weeks as the conservatives are been shown up as anti democratic cowards now.

Dont think that will happen, the tories are being led by the eton wing of the national front party

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The referendum was to leave, not to work in the background with the EU to form a deal that basically takes an EU logo off passports and leave everything else basically the same. The mandate was to regain complete financial and border control, complete autonomy of fishing territories and the control of movement of all goods and people in and out of britain.

No deal is a lot closer to what was promised, envisioned and the referendum won on than May’s deal or any other was close to. For us as irish people a customs union is obviously the preferrable, or for it not to have happened at all, but leaving our own countries desires aside, borris is trying to deliver closer to what 52% of britain freely voted for than anything the opposition or even half the moderate conservatives will give a nod to.

Does that make this a good idea or not a complete f*ckup - absolutely not , does it make it what the people democratically voted for - absolutely yes.

I respectfully disagree. If you read you're post, it's convincing and logical, but it's not what I gathered from my British friends at the time, and it's not what polling suggested either. You say No Deal is closer to what was promised but a Deal was promised. Something that kept things working.

The shock that London would lose its passporting rights pretty much voids the argument they wanted financial independence. The current proposed solution to the border problem where there are no controls is the opposite of more control of that. Don't know much about fishing so you can have that. And control of goods? That's an odd one. I highly doubt the average voter ever considered it in any way whatsoever.


I don't think there should be a second referendum anymore, and I don't think they should repeal. I think they should leave the EU and follow that mandate without throwing the toys out. Irish sea border or the backstop ticks off more boxes imo than a No Deal.

ILoveYourVibes

InTheShadows wrote: »

The Brexit party are going to do very well in the upcoming election.

Don't be surprised if Boris decides to resign and join them in the coming weeks as the conservatives are been shown up as anti democratic cowards now.

That would be him alright. I wonder what they will do if he does resign.

declanflynn

If the opposition can hold their nerve and only agree to an election date a week after doris comes back from Brussels after requesting an extension they will finish doris and the tories, doris could be forced to resign, he is the worst PM since the last one

Blueshoe

Immigration scheme set up for EU citizens going to the UK in event of no-deal Brexit https://jrnl.ie/4796119

Post brexit immigration policy. It is excellent.

Calina

Blueshoe wrote: »

Immigration scheme set up for EU citizens going to the UK in event of no-deal Brexit https://jrnl.ie/4796119

Post brexit immigration policy. It is excellent.

It absolutely is not.

Blueshoe

Calina wrote: »

It absolutely is not.

Why not?

First Up

Junkyard Tom wrote:

A group of 100 people are together on a cruise ship and are faced with a vote on whether to leave, or not. 72 decide to participate in the election. 37 of the 72 vote to leave with 35 voting to stay - leave wins narrowly. 10 of the 37 leavers are idiots/have a lifeboat/believe they will grow gills, and want to go immediately.

The problem is that deciding to leave is only half the question - where do they want to go after they leave?

We have some in here trumpeting on about direct democracy but those who voted leave have not said (because they weren't asked) where they want to go. That decision was dumped back on the parliamentarians and we can see how that has been going.

If "Direct Democracy" (peoples' vote) is the only true form, then the electorate should be given that responsibility too.

That would mean a multi-choice plebiscite - No Deal, CU, Backstop yes/no, Irish Sea border, something else, whatever.

Lets see how well direct democracy gets on with that.

Danzy

Blueshoe wrote: »

Immigration scheme set up for EU citizens going to the UK in event of no-deal Brexit https://jrnl.ie/4796119

Post brexit immigration policy. It is excellent.

Thatcher will be spinning in her grave.

Peregrinus

Blueshoe wrote: »

Immigration scheme set up for EU citizens going to the UK in event of no-deal Brexit https://jrnl.ie/4796119

Post brexit immigration policy. It is excellent.

Well, I don't know that it's that excellent. It is, after all, a dramatic reversal of the half-baked ("immediate end to free movement" policy announced just over a week ago, so it doesn't do much to create an impresson that, three-and-a-half years after the Brexit referendum, the Tory government has put a lot of thought into what was supposed to be one of the key drivers of the Brexit decision.

Plus it's a bit half-baked itself. (Perhaps unsurprisingly, for a policy worked up in a bit over a week.) There's a sharp distinction between the entitlements of EU citizens arriving in the UK before Brexit day and those arriving after Brexit day, but no mechanism for recording or reconstructing dates of arrival. This, let us remember, is precisely the policy failure which led to the Windrush scandal. But this would be on a much bigger scale; the numbers of UK residents involved would be huge.

pjohnson

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, I don't know that it's that excellent. It is, after all, a dramatic reversal of the half-baked ("immediate end to free movement" policy announced just over a week ago, so it doesn't do much to create an impresson that, three-and-a-half years after the Brexit referendum, the Tory government has put a lot of thought into what was supposed to be one of the key drivers of the Brexit decision.

Plus it's a bit half-baked itself. (Perhaps unsurprisingly, for a policy worked up in a bit over a week.) There's a sharp distinction between the entitlements of EU citizens arriving in the UK before Brexit day and those arriving after Brexit day, but no mechanism for recording or reconstructing dates of arrival. This, let us remember, is precisely the policy failure which led to the Windrush scandal. But this would be on a much bigger scale; the numbers of UK residents involved would be huge.

Being half baked an ill thought out/made up as it goes along is the hallmark of Brexit. Those who support Brexit will naturally support whatever half baked flawed ill thought out mess that they come up with.

mcmoustache

pjohnson wrote: »

Those who support Brexit will naturally support whatever half baked flawed ill thought out mess that they come up with.

Yep. All the plans will be "excellent" and Boris will always be "playing a blinder", no matter how badly he sh!ts his pants.

ohnonotgmail

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, I don't know that it's that excellent. It is, after all, a dramatic reversal of the half-baked ("immediate end to free movement" policy announced just over a week ago, so it doesn't do much to create an impresson that, three-and-a-half years after the Brexit referendum, the Tory government has put a lot of thought into what was supposed to be one of the key drivers of the Brexit decision.

Plus it's a bit half-baked itself. (Perhaps unsurprisingly, for a policy worked up in a bit over a week.) There's a sharp distinction between the entitlements of EU citizens arriving in the UK before Brexit day and those arriving after Brexit day, but no mechanism for recording or reconstructing dates of arrival. This, let us remember, is precisely the policy failure which led to the Windrush scandal. But this would be on a much bigger scale; the numbers of UK residents involved would be huge.

i'm surprised it is even half baked.

davedanon

Basically, the Brexit supporters on here think it is 'excellent' because it seems to them that it will keep out the sort of people they think should be kept out over there, and no doubt over here as well. I'll leave it others to decide just what sort of people that might be.

Kidchameleon

We are witnessing the complete rape of democracy in the UK, very similar to how we were treated after the first Lisbon vote. It is absolutly discusting and should not be acceptable to you weather you are pro or anti exit.

ohnonotgmail

Kidchameleon wrote: »

We are witnessing the complete rape of democracy in the UK, very similar to how we were treated after the first Lisbon vote. It is absolutly discusting and should not be acceptable to you weather you are pro or anti exit.

so parliament is raping democracy? the parliament that is the supreme source of democracy in the UK?

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

We are witnessing the complete rape of democracy in the UK, very similar to how we were treated after the first Lisbon vote. It is absolutly discusting and should not be acceptable to you weather you are pro or anti exit.

Yes. I think parliament were totally correct 'taking back control' of a government going rogue.

Dytalus

Kidchameleon wrote: »

We are witnessing the complete rape of democracy in the UK

No, we're not. A majority of elected MPs have prevented No Deal Brexit. This is not the same as preventing Brexit so you still get the 'sanctity' of the advisory referendum, and these kinds of decisions are precisely what MPs are elected to do. By the very definition of how democracy in the UK functions, Parliament is democracy. The Government (ie Johnson and the rest of the executive) trying to subvert the elected Parliament is a much greater crime against democracy than anything an elected Parliament can do.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

very similar to how we were treated after the first Lisbon vote.

Proof, if more were needed, that you have no idea what you're talking about. People have gone over why the Lisbon treaty votes were not a subversion of our democracy more than once. I'm not going over it again.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

It is absolutly discusting and should not be acceptable to you weather you are pro or anti exit.

MPs are acting in the best interests of their country by preventing the economic hardship that will be wrought by a hard, no-deal brexit. They seek to ensure that the UK leaves with a deal, as was promised during the referendum lead up. This is exactly what elected representatives are supposed to do - act in the best interests of the nation and their constituents (which is not always the same as what those constituents want).

Kidchameleon

Comon now lads and lasses you can dress it up any way that you want but they voted to leave and should have been gone in March. Boris got power on the promise of a 31st October exit. The referendum was clear, leave or remain. They chose to leave and are being ignored. Its a disaster for democracy. Dont tell me they didnt vote for a no deal, simple research debunks that claim. A basic understanding of Article 50 is all that is needed.

ohnonotgmail

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Comon now lads and lasses you can dress it up any way that you want but they voted to leave and should have been gone in March. Boris got power on the promise of a 31st October exit. The referendum was clear, leave or remain. They chose to leave and are being ignored. Its a disaster for democracy. Dont tell me they didnt vote for a no deal, simple research debunks that claim. A basic understanding of Article 50 is all that is needed.

Boris's mandate is from a tiny percentage of the population. how is that democracy? being elected as leader of the tory party does not put him outside the control of parliament. parliament is supreme. taking back control.

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Comon now lads and lasses you can dress it up any way that you want but they voted to leave and should have been gone in March. Boris got power on the promise of a 31st October exit. The referendum was clear, leave or remain. They chose to leave and are being ignored. Its a disaster for democracy. Dont tell me they didnt vote for a no deal, simple research debunks that claim. A basic understanding of Article 50 is all that is needed.

The option to leave remains. They just have to agree to the deal negotiated or change their terms and negotiate a new deal, the terms of which the referendum does not stipulate, no matter what Brexiteers say.

Penn

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Comon now lads and lasses you can dress it up any way that you want but they voted to leave and should have been gone in March. Boris got power on the promise of a 31st October exit. The referendum was clear, leave or remain. They chose to leave and are being ignored. Its a disaster for democracy. Dont tell me they didnt vote for a no deal, simple research debunks that claim. A basic understanding of Article 50 is all that is needed.

While I don't doubt the majority of Leave voters don't care whether it's No Deal or any kind of exit, they just want out of the EU, the simple fact is that the lies and misinformation about what they'd get if they vote Leave certainly swung enough votes to have made a difference, given the small margin between Leave and Remain. Now that people know what Brexit actually entails, it's clear a second vote is needed.

davedanon

This would be the government that is going to shut down a parliament (and parliament is Sovereign in the UK) to stifle debate and dissent, and is led by a man who wasn't elected PM and who lied his way through the Brexit campaign, with policy driven by a man who wasn't elected? That government?

Also: don't bring up the old Lisbon Treaty chestnut. That was put to bed long ago.

Eric Cartman

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes. And they promised that the UK would remain part of a "free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey". That's the Single Market (Iceland) and the Customs Union (Turkey), folks.

The truth is that the Leave campaigners made a variety of inconsistent statements about what leaving would and wouldn't entail. After the referendum was over, they claimed the right to pick and choose between them, deeming some statements to be part of the mandate created by the vote of the people, and others not to be. The idea that their choice of the mandate they would like to have should be subject to any kind of scrutiny or ratification by the people, or by their representatives in Parliament, is regarded in the mad, mad world of Brexitry as antidemocratic.
Quite why the Brexiter elite have the authority to decree what people voted for and what they didn't vote for is never explained.

JRM yesterday and others before have addressed this, in the event of a ‘no deal’ brexit they fall to WTO trading rules as a default, already in place and the mechanisms are on the table so the ‘iceland to turkey’ statement holds

Dytalus

Eric Cartman wrote: »

JRM yesterday and others before have addressed this, in the event of a ‘no deal’ brexit they fall to WTO trading rules as a default, already in place and the mechanisms are on the table so the ‘iceland to turkey’ statement holds

No it doesn't.

WTO rules are not a 'free trade area' as promised. They are the bog standard, treat everyone in the WTO the same, rules that govern international trade and on which no major nation survives alone.

There are no mechanisms in place to take advantages of any "free trade areas" - they've only managed to roll over a few trade agreements. One includes Iceland. None of them include Turkey, and none of them include the EU nations in between Iceland and Turkey.

davedanon

Penn wrote: »

While I don't doubt the majority of Leave voters don't care whether it's No Deal or any kind of exit, they just want out of the EU

I do. I'm fairly sure a significant proportion of leave voters did so on the basis that they would get 'one of the easiest trade deals in history', to quote David Davis. They thought they could shrug off all the annoying petty EU rules (as they saw them thanks to decades of Tory press propaganda) and yet retain all the benefits and not suffer any hardships at all. That's what they were promised, by Johnson to Farage and all points in between. Now they see the reality, and you can bet your life there's lots of buyer's remorse out there.