Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

davedanon

And before someone says that Norn is pretty damn insular, and it is, at least parts of it, don't forget that because they're part of the UK, they get get to not give a damn what happens down in Dublin, unless we say something either the Shinners or the DUP doesn't like. If NI found itself forcibly ejected from the Union, let's say, and say that we didn't want them. Well then, they'd have to go it alone, and you'd soon see attitudes change. You'd have Unionist and Nationalist pols in Dublin tout suite and eager to get on with their larger neighbour whose money and investment and jobs they want a share of.

steddyeddy

davedanon wrote: »

Yeah, and I'm sure many here have heard/read the stories about Irish people working/living in the UK having to explain to their Brit colleagues that Ireland isn't part of the UK, is a completely separate country, and even has a different currency.

Yes including me. It's not a shock to find that their ignorance extends to the EU. Amazingly the ignorance of the general public is destroying their own country.

Irishmale0399

Lads we could sort the problem in the UK for them.....

Make Northern Ireland independent, no interfering from London or Dublin and allow them vote on EU membership, border or not. Give them the power to rule themselves....see how they then get on without the side shows.

downcow

Deleted User wrote: »

Based on this thread, I'm surprised it's not "t Brits first".



Wow. Just........wow.....

I've read some ill-informed, one-eyed, partisan nonsense on the whole Brexit fiasco but at least most of it gave the impression that the person saying it believed the guff they were spouting.

Do you honestly hold that opinion? Does it make logical sense in your own head? How is it Leo's fault that the UK wants to leave the room and shutter themselves into the cupboard in the corner?

The arrogant non-cooperational position of ROI was inevitably leading to this position.
Using the GFA as a threat was deceitful
Refusing to consider options to have checks away from the border etc was bullying.
Thankfully Leo is now admitting that there is work going on to have checks away from the border.
Unfortunately we all (UK/ROI/EU) are going to have tpo go through the stress and mess of a no deal for everyone to then sit down and act adult and come up with mutually beneficial arrangements

But sure we all knew this - everyone just burried theirs heads

downcow

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Lads we could sort the problem in the UK for them.....

Make Northern Ireland independent, no interfering from London or Dublin and allow them vote on EU membership, border or not. Give them the power to rule themselves....see how they then get on without the side shows.

I thought you wanted to protect the GFA?? therefore thats not an option

Odhinn

downcow wrote: »

The arrogant non-cooperational position of ROI was inevitably leading to this position.
Using the GFA as a threat was deceitful
.............

It wasn't used as a "threat". The fact is that a hard border has the potential to start violence all over again, because a few arrogant members of the elite decided to play poltics with EU membership.

davedanon

downcow wrote: »

The arrogant non-cooperational position of ROI was inevitably leading to this position.
Using the GFA as a threat was deceitful
Refusing to consider options to have checks away from the border etc was bullying.
Thankfully Leo is now admitting that there is work going on to have checks away from the border.
Unfortunately we all (UK/ROI/EU) are going to have tpo go through the stress and mess of a no deal for everyone to then sit down and act adult and come up with mutually beneficial arrangements

But sure we all knew this - everyone just burried theirs heads

Can't even be bothered refuting this arrant nonsense.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

The arrogant non-cooperational position of ROI was inevitably leading to this position.

Nonsense.
There was a completely sensible and rational solution AGREED with the EU and abstract feelings of rejection in the DUP scuppered it.

They will inevitably have to put these abstract notions out of their heads for everybody else's sake...the easy way or the hard way.

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

I thought you wanted to protect the GFA?? therefore thats not an option

At this point I would accept a wall from Donegal to Louth.....once you lot make up your minds and get on with it. The UK government are taking the mickey at this point and someone within the EU will have to put a stop to it or we will still be in the same position in 12,18,24 months.



Northern Ireland doesnt want to leave the EU, some want to be part of the UK, some want to be Irish, others want to be British and hold an Irish passport......how about trying independence and looking after yourselves without a backdoor or mother too fall back on. Ask the majority in the 6 counties what they want, EU Yes or No and get on with it.

Should the majority of the population want to remain in the EU off you go...problem solved.

maccored

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Lads we could sort the problem in the UK for them.....

Make Northern Ireland independent, no interfering from London or Dublin and allow them vote on EU membership, border or not. Give them the power to rule themselves....see how they then get on without the side shows.

considering the place was set up specifically not to be able to survive on its own, the place wouldnt get on very well

davedanon

What is this mindset that leads someone, presumably Irish, to set their face so totally against their own country? Everything we do is wrong. Brexit is our fault. Leo is a liar, and a puppet of Brussells. I'm no wrap the green flag around me nationalist, far from it, but I just son't understand this mentality.

Membership of the EEC/EU has been largely responsible for the astonishing transformation of our economy from an insular, protectionist and largely agriculturally-based one into the consistently fastest-growing country in the whole of Europe. We went from hugely below the European average to well above it in the space of 50 years. I cannot fathom the mentality that sees Europe as a malign force demanding we do its will.

Irishmale0399

maccored wrote: »

considering the place was set up specifically not to be able to survive on its own, the place wouldnt get on very well

A new start wouldnt do them any harm. Might also improve them.....how many young ones went out into the world and became better people when they broke away from mothers apron strings.

davedanon

davedanon wrote: »

What is this mindset that leads someone, presumably Irish, to set their face so totally against their own country? Everything we do is wrong. Brexit is our fault. Leo is a liar, and a puppet of Brussells. I'm no wrap the green flag around me nationalist, far from it, but I just son't understand this mentality.

Well Leo is a conniving elitist but... he is playing a blinder on Brexit.
Anything else, anything at all, and I oppose his ideals but not this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-49601232/boris-johnson-heckled-you-should-be-in-brussels-you-re-in-morley


Boris completely destroyed by a random punter.

tigger123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-49601232/boris-johnson-heckled-you-should-be-in-brussels-you-re-in-morley


Boris completely destroyed by a random punter.

Bojo does not have the mettle for this job at all. Amazed he's getting found out so quickly.

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-49601232/boris-johnson-heckled-you-should-be-in-brussels-you-re-in-morley


Boris completely destroyed by a random punter.

Is it me or does the fella have an Irish tinge to his accent?

tigger123

Its definitely an Irish accent.

Definitely the accent but Boris had not one answer other than bland platitudes, and needed cheering sycophants to rescue him.

Lady Spangles

tigger123 wrote: »

Bojo does not have the mettle for this job at all. Amazed he's getting found out so quickly.

I thought the bumbling, stupid persona he presented to the world was an elaborate act. I thought, honestly, underneath all that he was a shrewd and sharp tactician with a cunning plan in mind.

But nah... so far he's been as ineffectual as Theresa. I'm almost disappointed.

tigger123

Lady Spangles wrote: »

I thought the bumbling, stupid persona he presented to the world was an elaborate act. I thought, honestly, underneath all that he was a shrewd and sharp tactician with a cunning plan in mind.

But nah... so far he's been as ineffectual as Theresa. I'm almost disappointed.

Me too. I also thought Cummings, who masterminded Vote Leave, wouldn't be completely f*cking rubbish at pulling BoJos strings.

They really are screwed if this is what's leading them towards the cliff edge.

tigger123

Lady Spangles wrote: »

I thought the bumbling, stupid persona he presented to the world was an elaborate act. I thought, honestly, underneath all that he was a shrewd and sharp tactician with a cunning plan in mind.

But nah... so far he's been as ineffectual as Theresa. I'm almost disappointed.

He's waaaaay worse than Theresa. At least Theresa kept the party relatively intact.

tigger123

Hilarious how little you see or hear the acronym 'DUP' in the last week or so. Since it's all falling asunder they've lost whatever influence they had. One good thing to come out of this.

Plus the legislation to block No Deal of course. Good news for us, and the North.

Lady Spangles

Lady Spangles wrote: »

I thought the bumbling, stupid persona he presented to the world was an elaborate act. I thought, honestly, underneath all that he was a shrewd and sharp tactician with a cunning plan in mind.

But nah... so far he's been as ineffectual as Theresa. I'm almost disappointed.

I think that he is grand with strategy but tactics? Nope, everything has to be planned in advance, changes completely throw him

J Mysterio

Lady Spangles

davedanon wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think it's that the Brits are ignorant and we Irish are smart and clued-in. I think it's a function of relative size. Bigger countries and their populations think very little about smaller countries. I'd say that there are many of us down south that are pretty ignorant of what goes on in NI, and the way things work up there. I think, the bigger the country/landmass, the more insular the population tends to be. Whereas a smaller country with a bigger neighbour with which it is economically intertwined tends to be more aware of it's internal goings-on. It's self-preservation. Taken on their own and leaving the EU aside altogether, it's a simple statement of fact that we would need the UK far more than they need us.

However, we have the EU, which makes us the senior partner. We get to throw our weight around and 'tell Britain what to do'. Britain's failure to grasp this is only compounding their problems.

I didn't mean to imply that it was a simple matter of "ignorant" Brits and "enlightened" Irish (and I'm originally from Liverpool myself). People there do tend to get confused over the whole Ireland/Northern Ireland issue. Liverpool is slightly different because of the huge Irish immigrant population we have and there's a lot of support for Irish unity within the city.

As for Brexit, I'm afraid they just don't get that either. They seem to be under the impression that they can walk out and leave and that's that. Everything continues as it did before. Like you said, people in larger countries failing to consider the impact of smaller countries.

Lady Spangles

Deleted User wrote: »

And that is their problem.

I never stated or implied otherwise.

They know nothing of their own union, where it ends and begins.
Nothing of the fact that Ireland was IN the bloody Union up to fairly recently and fought a viscous campaign to exit fully. Many of the posters here had grandparents subject to that Union.

It's not that hard to know the component parts of your own country.

And many of us do know the component parts of the Union. Many of us fully get the differences betwen GB and the UK. As with all societies in every part of the world, there's ignorant types who're wilfully un-educated beyond anything that directly affects them. They're not representative of the entire nation.

People used to get prissy when Irish people used to complain to the BBC about using the Island of Ireland when showing maps of the UK and why we rail against the term "British Isles", this is why we were right to complain and refuse to acknowledge such terms, it's in their cultural psyche that all of Ireland is connected to the UK in some official capacity.

The British Isles refers to an archipelago of islands off the north coast of Brittany. I don't think that implies that Brittany owns them, it's merely a geographical term for a bunch of islands. Nor does it mean everyone on those islands is British. But rail against it all you like.

Lady Spangles

Lady Spangles wrote: »

The British Isles refers to an archipelago of islands off the north coast of Brittany. I don't think that implies that Brittany owns them, it's merely a geographical term for a bunch of islands. Nor does it mean everyone on those islands is British. But rail against it all you like.

In English that term was coined by John Dee to do precisely that, establish ownership.

The ancient Greeks called the islands after the people living here, that is true, just calling them after the celtic Pretans (spelling?) but even they changed their records once they found out what the islands were called by the people living there (Where Hibernia comes from, for Ireland)

The modern terminology is exactly to do as you decry

Lady Spangles

Deleted User wrote: »

In English that term was coined by John Dee to do precisely that, establish ownership.

The ancient Greeks called the islands after the people living here, that is true, just calling them after the celtic Pretans (spelling?) but even they changed their records once they found out what the islands were called by the people living there (Where Hibernia comes from, for Ireland)

The modern terminology is exactly to do as you decry

There's also a reference to the British Isles in Pytheas of Massalia's works. But it certainly wasn't common in use and Dee could easily have nicked it and used it to claim ownership of all the islands in the archipelago - I won't disagree there. And I don't want to derail the Brexit thread and will stick to current day terminology.

bladespin

Lady Spangles wrote: »

And many of us do know the component parts of the Union. Many of us fully get the differences betwen GB and the UK. As with all societies in every part of the world, there's ignorant types who're wilfully un-educated beyond anything that directly affects them. They're not representative of the entire nation.

I beg to differ, lowest common denominator they may be but they're in the majority now, just like the US the UK is now dominated by misrepresentation and false beliefs.

El_Duderino 09

Lady Spangles wrote: »

I thought the bumbling, stupid persona he presented to the world was an elaborate act. I thought, honestly, underneath all that he was a shrewd and sharp tactician with a cunning plan in mind.

But nah... so far he's been as ineffectual as Theresa. I'm almost disappointed.

I wouldn’t have thought he’s any kind of tactician. I’d say he is unburdened by principles or loyalty to ideas or people and can change approach whenever it suits him. He’ll be fine. Could be PM for a decade.