Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

is_that_so

PostWoke wrote: »

And if we vote for the wrong thing we have to go back and do it again properly so, less stress over decisions eh.

We don't because a No vote means the status quo remains. If we're back on Lisbon again well many voters got conned by the Ganley and were voting on something that quite a few misunderstood. The second run had guarantees attached to it so it wasn't the same vote.

PostWoke

is_that_so wrote: »

so it wasn't the same vote.

I remember being asked the same question/ being asked my opinion on the same topic tbh.

is_that_so

PostWoke wrote: »

I remember being asked the same question/ being asked my opinion on the same topic tbh.

It's not uncommon for questions to be put again. We've voted three times on divorce, FPTP twice, numerous times on abortion and would probably give a yes to a better set up of the Abbeylara referendum. There was a valid reason to rerun Lisbon and the enormous confusion it caused first time out for a good chunk of voters is really a political failing. I had some very bizarre conversations about child conscription amongst other things!

And none of that matters, they're successfully Strawmaning away from the simple question


What version of Brexit did the UK vote for?

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

And none of that matters, they're successfully Strawmaning away from the simple question


What version of Brexit did the UK vote for?

It didn't vote for any version. That's the problem.

Kidchameleon

Wanderer78 wrote: »

has the kid been banned or is just exhausted from talking nonsense?

Hi how are ya? Im exhausted from listening to mainstream media nonsense being thrown at me. People citing Sky News, jesus christ!

PostWoke

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not uncommon for questions to be put again.

It's fairly uncommon when it's a question on a ballot paper :pac: except in countries that use tanks as props outside polling stations of course.

Calina

PostWoke wrote: »

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not uncommon for questions to be put again.

It's fairly uncommon when it's a question on a ballot paper :pac: except in countries that use tanks as props outside polling stations of course.

What are you insinuating?

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It didn't vote for any version. That's the problem.

Exactly, but get a Kipper to acknowledge this...

cryptocurrency

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly, but get a Kipper to acknowledge this...

There was a leaflet issued at the cost of £10m to every household in the UK outline what leave meant.

Leave the single market, leave the customs union, end the control of the ECJ and to end free movement.

It also warned that there would be a end to free mobile phone roaming. They seemed to think that might swing it.

FrancieBrady

You gotta wince when you hear all these public school type MP's harking back to Roman examples of similar predicaments to the one the Tory's find themselves in. (MP on Marian Finucane show now).
There are far more pertinent and recent examples of what happens to societies when governments ignore their parliaments. frogmarch staff out of government buildings and purge dissent within the ranks.

Eric Cartman

See all sorts of stories about borris ‘being arrested’ if he doesnt ask for an extension as if its iron clad guaranteed to happen. Id like to see a deal but I don’t want this to go on a day over october 31st regardless. Hopefully the EU decline any request, britain made its bed through a fair and democratic decision , now it should lie in it

McMurphy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You gotta wince when you hear all these public school type MP's harking back to Roman examples of similar predicaments to the one the Tory's find themselves in. (MP on Marian Finucane show now).
There are far more pertinent and recent examples of what happens to societies when governments ignore their parliaments. frogmarch staff out of government buildings and purge dissent within the ranks.

https://www.facebook.com/513093697/posts/10157528628298698?sfns=mo

Professor Moriarty

cryptocurrency wrote: »

There was a leaflet issued at the cost of £10m to every household in the UK outline what leave meant.

Leave the single market, leave the customs union, end the control of the ECJ and to end free movement.

It also warned that there would be a end to free mobile phone roaming. They seemed to think that might swing it.

Could you quote the leaflet verbatim where it asserts this?

PostWoke

PostWoke wrote: »

I remember being asked the same question/ being asked my opinion on the same topic tbh.

And the British had more than one vote on EU membership so far. A far greater percentage of voters in 1975 (67.23%) voted for EU membership than voted to leave the EU in 2016 (51.89%).

Yet, Brexiteers want to contend that their very slight victory in 2016 is the last, definitive say on British membership of the EU. Democracy doesn't actually work like that; if it did, we wouldn't have elections every four or five years regarding the same question: whom do you want in government?

We tend to have regular elections because we realise we were told lies in the previous one and we change our minds. Sometimes, indeed, entire governments have been exposed as frauds, and their ministers tender their respective resignations, long before another vote is legally due. This is not undemocratic, but is a fundamental part of our understanding of representative democracy. This happened in Ireland in 2011, and has been happening in Britain at an alarming rate since June 2016.

Similarly, if new information appears about the reality of Brexit - most especially when it's a hard Brexit that nobody talked about happening prior to the 2016 referendum, never mind voted for - there is more than enough democratic legitimacy in asking people their opinion about it. Would the English in 2019 vote for their own, shall we say, "immediate and terrible Brexit" that would be a hard Brexit? That scenario was not on the cards in 2016.

If the English insist upon keeping the current version of their UK together - which itself can only be dated to 7 December 1922, lest we forget - the most democratic thing would be for the British government to freely make the very best deal it can with the EU, and put that deal to the UK electorate. If they accept it, the UK departs on those terms. If they reject it, the UK remains in the EU. As the EU will not allow a deal which undermines the UK's international obligations regarding Ireland under the 1998 GFA, we are talking a 'soft' Brexit. Alternatively, the UK can split and Scotland and NI can choose to go a different way to England and Wales, with the latter two getting more sovereignty and independence once the albatross of the pro-EU majorities in NI and Scotland are removed from the current UK.

For the long-term sustainable peace of that society, that is the sort of democratic foundation it needs, not the current pre-1972 Stormont-style simple majority of the population of England having an in-built majority to overrule majorities in NI and Scotland (and Wales).

davedanon

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Won't happen. SNP are gonna SNP. Greens are head in the clouds types with their own agenda and less seats then Plaid.

Lib Dems actually stand for nothing and Labour don't want to lose London to them,

Well, that's just the sort of airy, dismissive, 'it'll all be fine' thinking that has Boris in the situation he's in.

Meanwhile, if only there were some real-life example in recent history of the opposition coming together (in some sort of Rebel Alliance, if you will) against the government, which would refute this argument. If only.

davedanon

This is Britain now.

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1170102677839241216?s=19

Kidchameleon

davedanon wrote: »

This is Britain now.

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1170102677839241216?s=19

She did not include enough ID with her application. She can reapply with the proper paperwork. She has until December 2020. The UK gov has stated that no one currently in the UK will be kicked out. FAKE NEWS

cryptocurrency

davedanon wrote: »

This is Britain now.

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1170102677839241216?s=19

She needs to learn how to fill in a form and supply the right back up paperwork.

I had the bank comeback to me 6 times over two months to get the paperwork right for my holiday home before they even sent it on to underwriter.

Bet you that property that she won't be kicked out and this is all hysterical

davedanon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

She did not include enough ID with her application. She can reapply with the proper paperwork. She has until December 2020. The UK gov has stated that no one currently in the UK will be kicked out. FAKE NEWS

The British government is a damn liar, and so are you.

davedanon

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/08/vices-that-led-boris-johnson-to-top-useless-when-it-comes-to-wielding-power?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

cryptocurrency

davedanon wrote: »

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/08/vices-that-led-boris-johnson-to-top-useless-when-it-comes-to-wielding-power?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

It's a link to a fintan toole article incase you trick anyone into thinking it is relevant

Professor Moriarty

cryptocurrency wrote: »

She needs to learn how to fill in a form and supply the right back up paperwork.

I had the bank comeback to me 6 times over two months to get the paperwork right for my holiday home before they even sent it on to underwriter.

Bet you that property that she won't be kicked out and this is all hysterical

So, my question about the leaflet? Are you going to answer? Because it looks like you haven't a clue.

davedanon

cryptocurrency wrote: »

It's a link to a fintan toole article incase you trick anyone into thinking it is relevant

Thanks for reminding people of this piece's relevance.

26000 Elephants

The Lord Chancellor has deemed it necessary to have a chat with the Prime Minister about "The importance of upholding the law".

The impertinence!

davedanon

davedanon wrote: »

This is Britain now.

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1170102677839241216?s=19

The scum in that Twitter saying it's her fault she hadn't done it before when Labour were in power. A couple other pieces of human trash saying it's because she can't fill out a form correctly. And another subhuman ball of shlt calling it hysterical fake news.

Gotta love Twitter and the absolute dregs of society it exposes.

davedanon

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So, my question about the leaflet? Are you going to answer? Because it looks like you haven't a clue.

You won't get an answer, because he doesn't have any verbatim evidence. I looked at the wiki for the referendum, and this passage jumped out at me.

"In November that year, Cameron gave an update on the negotiations and further details of his aims.[26] The key demands made of the EU were: on economic governance, to recognise officially that Eurozone laws would not necessarily apply to non-Eurozone EU members and the latter would not have to bail out troubled Eurozone economies; on competitiveness, to expand the single market and to set a target for the reduction of bureaucracy for businesses; on sovereignty, for the UK to be legally exempted from "ever closer union" and for national parliaments to be able collectively to veto proposed EU laws; and, on immigration, for EU citizens going to the UK for work to be unable to claim social housing or in-work benefits until they had worked there for four years, and for them to be unable to send child benefit payments overseas."

Nothing about the single market or customs union. In fact, it talks about 'expanding the single market'. My memory is that the single market/customs union was never mentioned. David Davis breezily dismissed the whole issue with "it'll be one of the easiest trade deals in history". It was all about immigration/free movement, blue passports and the ECJ.

I've noticed a pattern with our residents right-wingers. They're quick enough to post up a snappy denial, and cry FAKE NEWS (how the right love their meaningless slogans. I wonder why). But ask them for actual evidence and they clam up.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

The scum in that Twitter saying it's her fault she hadn't done it before when Labour were in power. A couple other pieces of human trash saying it's because she can't fill out a form correctly. And another subhuman ball of shlt calling it hysterical fake news.

Gotta love Twitter and the absolute dregs of society it exposes.

Those people aside, the vast majority of comments were supportive TBF.

Professor Moriarty

davedanon wrote: »

You won't get an answer, because he doesn't have any verbatim evidence. I looked at the wiki for the referendum, and this passage jumped out at me.

"In November that year, Cameron gave an update on the negotiations and further details of his aims.[26] The key demands made of the EU were: on economic governance, to recognise officially that Eurozone laws would not necessarily apply to non-Eurozone EU members and the latter would not have to bail out troubled Eurozone economies; on competitiveness, to expand the single market and to set a target for the reduction of bureaucracy for businesses; on sovereignty, for the UK to be legally exempted from "ever closer union" and for national parliaments to be able collectively to veto proposed EU laws; and, on immigration, for EU citizens going to the UK for work to be unable to claim social housing or in-work benefits until they had worked there for four years, and for them to be unable to send child benefit payments overseas."

Nothing about the single market or customs union. In fact, it talks about 'expanding the single market'. My memory is that the single market/customs union was never mentioned. David Davis breezily dismissed the whole issue with "it'll be one of the easiest trade deals in history". It was all about immigration/free movement, blue passports and the ECJ.

I've noticed a pattern with our residents right-wingers. They're quick enough to post up a snappy denial, and cry FAKE NEWS (how the right love their meaningless slogans. I wonder why). But ask them for actual evidence and they clam up.

Indeed. The leaflet was nothing like Cryptocurrency claimed it to be. Sometimes it's hard to discern if people are clueless or dishonest.