Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

threeball

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Jaysus that lad and the original poster have a much more sunny view of varadkar, suppose ‘grass is greener’ and all that,

Varadkars a bit of a dose but you'd take any of them over Boris, May or god forbid Jacob rees mog.
I'd actually have Danny Healy Rae before any of them

Eric Cartman

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The government is dead on its feet. Either it gets reelected and Brexit is done or a Remain government is elected and Brexit is abandoned. The EU know this. Macron in particular is not prepared to make extending A50 a biannual event.

So now the options on the table are remain or no deal ? , id still rather them leave. Sounds like this was remains plan all along to thwart what britain voted for

gmisk

threeball wrote: »

Varadkars a bit of a dose but you'd take any of them over Boris, May or god forbid Jacob rees mog.
I'd actually have Danny Healy Rae before any of them

Yeah....but no sorry not that shambling disaster.

ancapailldorcha

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So now the options on the table are remain or no deal ? , id still rather them leave. Sounds like this was remains plan all along to thwart what britain voted for

Effectively, yes. Remain hasn't been in power for years. We've had leave governments since May who was only a remainer by the slimmest possible margin.

Where is the mandate for no deal? Have you a link?

threeball

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So now the options on the table are remain or no deal ? , id still rather them leave. Sounds like this was remains plan all along to thwart what britain voted for

Theres no point in them staying or this Brexit thing will never go away. There will be endless calls for more referendums. Who wants to see any more of that frog faced twat Farrage anymore.

Eric Cartman

threeball wrote: »

Varadkars a bit of a dose but you'd take any of them over Boris, May or god forbid Jacob rees mog.
I'd actually have Danny Healy Rae before any of them

Id take mogg out of the lot of those names, but i could only say that if I wasnt irish, chap wouldnt give a toss about us. Still more articulate and intelligent than anyone else on your list

threeball

gmisk wrote: »

Yeah....but no sorry not that shambling disaster.

OK step too far. Jackie maybe

ancapailldorcha

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Id take mogg out of the lot of those names, but i could only say that if I wasnt irish, chap wouldnt give a toss about us. Still more articulate and intelligent than anyone else on your list

A classical education does not make him intelligent. He's a protest vote. The right wing version of Corbyn with a lot less appeal.

threeball

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Id take mogg out of the lot of those names, but i could only say that if I wasnt irish, chap wouldnt give a toss about us. Still more articulate and intelligent than anyone else on your list

Articulate and intelligent yes but a complete shyster. All he cares about is driving down the UK currency so he can place his bets. He doesn't give a toss about anyone in Newcastle, Blackpool, Glasgow or Belfast. The man would nuke them all if he thought there was a tenner in it for himself.

Eric Cartman

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Effectively, yes. Remain hasn't been in power for years. We've had leave governments since May who was only a remainer by the slimmest possible margin.

Where is the mandate for no deal? Have you a link?

But remain has, every plan to leave has been constantly thwarted by remain and even crypto remain supporters. There are elements on all sides who have consistently sabotaged any chance of a deal.

If even a quarternof whats been done thus far was done to say our SSM referendum or somesuch, we would quite rightly he calling it out in every direction, but because most outside britain think this s a stupid idea (because it is) , we are all to willing to subconciously ignore the fact that a bi-partisan effort to stop this referendum coming to its conclusion has happened and continues to happen.

ancapailldorcha

Eric Cartman wrote: »

But remain has, every plan to leave has been constantly thwarted by remain and even crypto remain supporters. There are elements on all sides who have consistently sabotaged any chance of a deal.

If even a quarternof whats been done thus far was done to say our SSM referendum or somesuch, we would quite rightly he calling it out in every direction, but because most outside britain think this s a stupid idea (because it is) , we are all to willing to subconciously ignore the fact that a bi-partisan effort to stop this referendum coming to its conclusion has happened and continues to happen.

So judges, the speaker and the elected Parliament are all remainers? I'd like to see evidence for this. And before you cite Gina Miller, her case was about giving Parliament control over when A50 was triggered, not stopping it being triggered.

The SSM referendum was a clearly defined question with specific outcomes. The EU referendum was a half-baked attempt at keeping the Tory party together. There is a world of difference.

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1171096960322932736

Eric Cartman

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So judges, the speaker and the elected Parliament are all remainers? I'd like to see evidence for this. And before you cite Gina Miller, her case was about giving Parliament control over when A50 was triggered, not stopping it being triggered.

The SSM referendum was a clearly defined question with specific outcomes. The EU referendum was a half-baked attempt at keeping the Tory party together. There is a world of difference.

At the time of the referendum, cameron was in charge and wanted to remain, this was a plan by UKIP , voted for by the British people being sold a dream by Nigel Farage. Since article 50 was triggered there has been attempts either by can kicking or passiveness on Both sides to not carry out this. There is no deal they would all agree on, most tories can't be vocal about it because it admits that you don't believe in democracy.

I think the fact you've declared it as 'a half baked attempt to keep the tory party together' says where you stand on it and consciously or not, any facility which may unfurl Brexit is alright with you. It's not that anyone is doing anything illegal or shady, but inaction, flip-flopping etc... are not illegal, we have a group effort of people here to go right to the wall of legality but not hopping it in ensuring that this process is drawn out in the hope that it falls apart.

This is one of those examples of where the elected representatives tasked with doing a job have lost faith in democracy and have decided to do the bare minimum to ensure that the democratic decision is carried out.

ancapailldorcha

Eric Cartman wrote: »

At the time of the referendum, cameron was in charge and wanted to remain, this was a plan by UKIP , voted for by the British people being sold a dream by Nigel Farage. Since article 50 was triggered there has been attempts either by can kicking or passiveness on Both sides to not carry out this. There is no deal they would all agree on, most tories can't be vocal about it because it admits that you don't believe in democracy.

There was no plan by UKIP. They were a fringe party at the time and Cameron was afraid of losing votes to them.

What do you think the only democratic course is? No deal?

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think the fact you've declared it as 'a half baked attempt to keep the tory party together' says where you stand on it and consciously or not, any facility which may unfurl Brexit is alright with you. It's not that anyone is doing anything illegal or shady, but inaction, flip-flopping etc... are not illegal, we have a group effort of people here to go right to the wall of legality but not hopping it in ensuring that this process is drawn out in the hope that it falls apart.

You're putting words in my mouth. I want Brexit binned but I want it done legally and ethically. A judge deciding that it's illegal is something I would disagree with. A People's Vote is something I heartily support. You say the above as if you've caught me out when I've been saying this for literally years.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

This is one of those examples of where the elected representatives tasked with doing a job have lost faith in democracy and have decided to do the bare minimum to ensure that the democratic decision is carried out.

This old "Brexit=Democracy" canard again. Show me the mandate for no deal please.

By the way, why do you think the electorate chose these people? That's democracy and what they do is democratic. When you twist the word this way, it becomes meaningless.

Sonny678

Aegir wrote:

This month marks 80 years since the start of WWII and is being commemorated all over europe. Ireland didn't play any part in it, so it is natural that the Irish don't get it I guess.

Ireland didnt play any part in WW 2 is just untrue. The fact is 120000 Irish men fought on the side of the allies and the British in WW 2 . How can 120000 fighting on the side of the allies mean Ireland didn't play any part in WW 2. Again misinformation regards Ireland. It just not true to say that.

I think that is very unfair and very untrue. It emphasises again the Brits havent a clue about Ireland. What Brexit has shown Irish people is we know so much about the Brits and the Brits know nothing if anything about Ireland. Of course this is understandable in one way , Britian is a massive country on the world stage with population of 60 mill , Ireland is a much smaller country. But if the Brits knew just a little bit more about Ireland , it would be a massive help or benefit.

We watch British tv , sky news , bbc , British soaps and programmes , British newspapers and sports eg premiership, Aintree , Wimbledon, rugby etc etc.. There is no country in the world that understands and has more knowledge of the Brits then the Irish. The Brits havent a clue about Ireland.

This is not because British people are ignorant. Its their media and education system that have let them down badly. U can go through the British education system and there is no mention of Ireland. U can study history at primary level, secondary level and third level and there is no mention of Ireland. The only way if u study history at university u can learn about Ireland is if pick a module on Northern Ireland ( which is not compulsory) thats the only way u can gain any info on Ireland in the Uk education system. Again Ireland is a smaller country. But even 1 page on the Irish famine and 1 page on troubles in Northern Ireland in a primary or secondary history book would help.

Two or three pages on the negatives of the empire. All this would help. Some might say Ireland is a small country and irrelevant. But as Brexit has shown and if go through British history from Daniel O Connell to Parnell and Irish famine ( worst European human tragedy of 19th century ) , Ireland has had a impact on British politics that is largely ignored by the education system in Britian. A little bit more correct information about Ireland would go a long long way in assisting the situation in Britain at every level.

The Brits learn about Ireland through conversations between themselves eg Irish are drunks , Irish luv Guiness , priests and peasants, IRA , Ireland were not involved in World War 2 and were not helpful to allies. Its all kind of barstool talk and analysis regards Ireland. Just a bit more understanding and information regard Ireland would benefit everyone. Ireland has changed dramatically in the last 30 years , socially and culturally and its economy . But u get the feeling allot of the Tories and allot of Brits see Ireland as island of priests , peasants and pixies. An island of guiness and the IRA. A better understanding of Ireland and something like the border wouldnt have become such an issue.

Take WW 2. The Brits have a lack of knowledge on Ireland , so the Irish were not involved in WW 2 and some Brits believe Ireland supported the Nazis. The Irish was 20 years a free state, and De Valera believed neutrality was the best way to continue independence from Britian. But Ireland wasnt neutral. Ireland was very much in the allies camp. Ireland helped with information and as much as they can. And also tens and tens of thousands of Irish men fought in WW 2. Just like they did in WW 1. 70000 Irish men fought in WW 2 from the south and 50000 from the north. 120000 Irish men fought in WW 2 on the side of the allies. Many Many Irish people have relatives who fought and died in WW 2. To say Irish dont understand WW 2 is unfair and just untrue. Ireland was neutral officially but was very very much on the side of the allies and many Irish men lost their lifes in WW 2. But this wouldn't be known in Britian. It doesn't fit the perception of Ireland , are misrepresentation of Ireland in Britian because British people are never informed by media or education system truthfully about Ireland.

The media and education system have let the British people down. As I said before most Brits u meet are sound and decent people. The Irish and British are very different even a different ethnic group. But we do share the same values , a sense of comunity , a respect for democracy, and both have the same sense of humour. But the Brits have been let down by media and education system. Mis education mis information and lack of truth telling has had a role in Brexit.

And of course there is the Tories , the God awful Tories . There is something wrong with Tories, really inately wrong with them. Labour is flawed and has many many issues and negatives. But the Tories are a shower of aristocratic wierdos who consciously or unconsciously have a deep lack of empthy and even hatred for ordinary people. When will ordinary British people realise the Tories have no interest in ordinary people and if anything have a distrust and even a hatred of ordinary people. The Tories destroyed the north of England and areas of Scotland and Wales in 1980s. Declared war on cities like liverpool. Tories tryed to destroy the working classes in 1980s. Now with Brexit they are showing they dont care about middle class or business community as a Brexit will have devastating impact on the middle clases andn bunsiness community.

There is something wrong with the Tories. They are not called the nasty party for nothing. All the nastiness , extreme conservative values , inward looking that you can muster in British life or society its all there in the Tories. Maybe the Brits will wake up to the Tories and their pure unrelenting nastiness because of Brexit. But at what cost. The Tories led a path of destruction in the north of England and Scotland in the 80s now its coming for the middle classes and the business community. When the Tories r finished Britian will be in a terrible state. An awful shower of aristocratic wierdos , many who have had extremely privileged education and lifes , but behind that education and privilege they are a bit thick. Mogg and Johnson and co are as thick and ignorant as they come. Throw in a lack of empathy and dislike of ordinary people and Brexit here we come.

Eric Cartman

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There was no plan by UKIP. They were a fringe party at the time and Cameron was afraid of losing votes to them.

What do you think the only democratic course is? No deal?



You're putting words in my mouth. I want Brexit binned but I want it done legally and ethically. A judge deciding that it's illegal is something I would disagree with. A People's Vote is something I heartily support. You say the above as if you've caught me out when I've been saying this for literally years.



This old "Brexit=Democracy" canard again. Show me the mandate for no deal please.

By the way, why do you think the electorate chose these people? That's democracy and what they do is democratic. When you twist the word this way, it becomes meaningless.

I think the only democratic course is to deliver Brexit, deal or no deal, as before I believe a deal based around the customs union vote is the best way forward, but I do not believe that any deal would pass muster with the current collection of MP's due to the personal desire by a lot of them (vocally or silently) to remain.

I would agree the 'against democracy' part is a bit overused, but I don't believe anyone in the Conservative party doing anything to delay or thwart Brexit is performing the duties they were elected to do and thats the part thats anti-democratic.

you want Brexit binned but want it done legally - thats basically what has been occurring for 3 years and what people both sides of the aisle were doing. Labour elects, the snp etc.. are doing what their followers want them to do which is this, however the slim tory majority is there to carry out precisely not this.

I wholeheartedly support a deal first, no deal if a deal can't be done in this timeframe. I cannot support the will of the majority (as slim as it may be) in 2016 being turfed back at them through the use of pedantry or obscure legal practice to revoke A50.

I don't believe for one second that brexit= no deal. I think our difference is your alternative to a deal is revoke A50, mine is no deal. However its clear as day that there are people declining good deals, or opportunities for good deals to achieve one of those, less than demanded outcomes.

ancapailldorcha

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you want Brexit binned but want it done legally - thats basically what has been occurring for 3 years and what people both sides of the aisle were doing. Labour elects, the snp etc.. are doing what their followers want them to do which is this, however the slim tory majority is there to carry out precisely not this.

No, it isn't. What the court cases were about is the supremacy of Parliament and the constitution. The Conservatives tried to force Brexit through via illegal and authoritarian means and subverted the British democratic process to do it. That's basically the opposite of democracy. Governments are supposed to be held accountable whereas you seem to support the executive being able to do as it pleases unimpeded.

Nobody forced May to seek two extensions. She could have left multiple times but did not.

Danzy

threeball wrote: »

It will hit Britain worse than us as we can still trade. They're absolutely fcuked in a no deal. No way we're down 50%, we only export 11% to them and that's reducing. Farmers will be worst hit but the EU will have to bail in there and help them out until deals with China etc are completed.

That 50% is for me personally.

It could be more.

Yes agri will be hit hard yet it as a whole employs as many as but leaves more retained capital in the country than the Multi national sector.

There is also a very large multipler effect in its spending.

Eric Cartman

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

No, it isn't. What the court cases were about is the supremacy of Parliament and the constitution. The Conservatives tried to force Brexit through via illegal and authoritarian means and subverted the British democratic process to do it. That's basically the opposite of democracy. Nobody forced May to seek two extensions. She could have left multiple times but did not.

may was deal or delay , Boris is deal or no deal , corbyn was deal or delay now delay or remain.

Britain voted for a deal , they have not been given an opportunity for one by the people who don't want any deal, regardless of those people being no deal , delay or remainers , anyone not actively trying to achieve a deal and agreeing upon concessions and requests for a deal is working against the will of the people.

Donald Trump

Aegir wrote: »

you've clearly never flown to the UK before.

Obviously I haven't. Sure what type of globetrotting billionaire would you think I would be if I had!





Oh, by the way, in case you haven't heard. There is this thing some people have been talking about occasionally on the news or in papers. It's related to a thing called "Brexit" which is a scenario where the UK looks like it will leave the European Union. Your past vast vast experiences of landing in the UK in an airplane might change somewhat after that happens depending on how it goes.


Just letting you know in case you hadn't heard about it

Donald Trump

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Fall to WTO rules and hope nobody tarriffs them, if they take 28 months then theyre already screwed anyway since leaving in october is the job

Do you not know even the basics of WTO by this? WTO means that if you do not have a trade deal with a country, you must treat them equal to all other countries you do not have a specific deal with.


It is not a case of the EU deciding to put tariffs on British lamb for example. If there is no agreement, then they must charge them the exact same tariff as they would apply to any other nation they do not have a trade agreement with for lamb. That could be Mexico/Kazakhstan/whatever. Unless the EU currently has a 0% tariff with those countries, it cannot have one with the UK post Brexit in a "no-deal" scenario.


And you need to remember this. Think of any commodity that the UK produces. Well it was in the EU and helped them to make the rules.......do you think they might have used that time and influence to have the EU have standard global tariffs above zero% in order to protect it's own people?

ChikiChiki

Just catching up now. Varadker made him look like a very very weak and poor leader on the steps.

And that in itself is something else.

Odhinn

Donald Trump wrote: »

Obviously I haven't. Sure what type of globetrotting billionaire would you think I would be if I had!





Oh, by the way, in case you haven't heard. There is this thing some people have been talking about occasionally on the news or in papers. It's related to a thing called "Brexit" which is a scenario where the UK looks like it will leave the European Union. Your past vast vast experiences of landing in the UK in an airplane might change somewhat after that happens depending on how it goes.

Not gone back to the anal probing is it?

ChikiChiki

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1170998111235448833

I just spent my train journey home from work in hysterics at the replies on that twitter. Today was definitely one of Irelands finest moments.

J Mysterio

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1171096960322932736

Annnd here it is already. The wonders of the internet.

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1171099451039080449

Eric Cartman

51.89% of the UK voted to leave the EU, outcomes that produce that result are deal and no deal. Delay or legally retract article 50 does not produce the referendum result.

theres a great table here for the multiple votes :
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2019/mar/27/how-did-your-mp-vote-in-the-indicative-votes

The SNP, PC and the TIG (independents group i think) are only up for repeal and another vote, so thats 50 votes that are never going to agree any deal ever and actively vote to reject others deals no matter what.

Theres 4 labour people who voted for no deal being possible, only 1 who voted only for no deal but the majority actively vote against it.

Theres only 12 people in labour who oppose a customs union most are for it

The DUP exclusively vote for a prefferential trade deal only (some sort of shining one for NI where they get a border presumably)

There are 27 tories not happy with any option at all
1 labour voted to reject every option
1 independent voted to reject all the options.


There are 36 tories who only want a 'no deal' brexit.

so there are 29 people - mostly tories who are actively ruining any hope of a resolution ,

if they ran with customs union as a deal and just persuaded some of their own party, it would be very possible. Provided labour are still in some level of acting reasonably theres 29 contrarians, the 10 DUP seats the 50 SNP/TIG and the 7 SF seats completely out of any chance of a realistic option.

So before you even approach the floor youre down 96 possible votes for any deal plus the 36 tories + 1 labour = 133

there are more people actively voting against any deal consistently than there are for many of the deal options.

The only possible deal that I can get the numbers for is if some tories and some labour capitulate on a customs union. thats what bojo and corbyn should be sitting down discussing and bringing those members 'concerns' up to see what deal can be struck.

but theres 133 MP's that are actively opposed to any form of delivering what the public voted for at all and thats shameful.

Donald Trump

Odhinn wrote: »

Not gone back to the anal probing is it?

Not as standard. But maybe if you ask them nicely enough they'll sort you out if that's what you'd prefer

Odhinn

The downward spiral continues

The five-week suspension of Parliament will begin later, after MPs are expected to again reject government calls for a snap election.
Opposition MPs confirmed they would not back the push for a 15 October poll, insisting a law blocking a no-deal Brexit must be implemented first.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49630094

Sonny678

Sonny678 wrote: »

Ireland didnt play any part in WW 2 is just untrue. The fact is 120000 Irish men fought on the side of the allies and the British in WW 2 . How can 120000 fighting on the side of the allies mean Ireland didn't play any part in WW 2. Again misinformation regards Ireland. It just not true to say that.

it's not misinformation at all.

Ireland, the state, played no part in the war. As you said yourself, Ireland was neutral.

Those that went and fought on the side of the allies did so off their own back and their contribution was barely acknowledged in Ireland for generations and was almost a guilty secret.

I'll ignore the rest of the soapboxing, it is ill informed getting boring at this stage.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

it's not misinformation at all.

Ireland, the state, played no part in the war. As you said yourself, Ireland was neutral.

Those that went and fought on the side of the allies did so off their own back and their contribution was barely acknowledged in Ireland for generations and was almost a guilty secret.

I'll ignore the rest of the soapboxing, it is ill informed getting boring at this stage.

Deciding to be neutral was playing a 'part', just not the one Churchy wanted.