Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

blinding wrote: »

But not enough to Vote themselves to be an Independent Country = Bottlers !

The Scots were lied to...and as we know, dem chickens always come home to roost.

Can you expand on that statement by explaining who was lied to and by whom?

Still no answer francie,now why doesn't that surprise me?....

Aegir

Aegir wrote: »

Scotland isn't in the EU, the UK is. Scotland would be an independent country and would need to apply for membership. It would cease to benefit from any EU trade deals and be subject to trading with the rest of the world on WTO terms. This would mean the need for a hard border.

First they would have to establish some form of border protection, as this isn't a devolved competency, demonstrate to the EU that they can successfully manage these borders, apply for membership and demonstrate they have met all the membership criteria.

Presuming of course, that is what people wanted. As the debacle over Rockall demonstrated, the Scottish Fishing industry is a very powerful lobby and they wanted out of the eu. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/04/scotland-fishing-federation-ministers-brexit-eu-referendum

If the UK leaving the EU is a cluster****, Scotland leaving the UK would be even worse.

It would be easier for them if the UK had already left with a reasonable deal, and they got into the EU right away. Surely easier than if the rest of the UK didn't leave.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Still no answer francie,now why doesn't that surprise me?....

I missed your question Rob. I posted a list of 17 of them earlier in reply to Aegir...who went off in a rant. :cool:

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

Still no answer francie,now why doesn't that surprise me?....

I missed your question Rob. I posted a list of 17 of them earlier in reply to Aegir...who went off in a rant. :cool:

Nobody knew what was going to happen in the 2016 brexit vote so saying Scotland was better off remaining in the UK in 2014 wasn't a lie.
I do think Johnson and co lied to everyone in the UK over brexit and were probably as shocked as the rest of us when they won.
You were wrong to say Scotland was lied to but saying the chickens were coming home to roost for Johnson and his cronies is true hopefully.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Nobody knew what was going to happen in the 2016 brexit vote so saying Scotland was better off remaining in the UK in 2014 wasn't a lie.
I do think Johnson and co lied to everyone in the UK over brexit and were probably as shocked as the rest of us when they won.
You were wrong to say Scotland was lied to but saying the chickens were coming home to roost for Johnson and his cronies is true hopefully.

Did Scotland's No vote secure it's place in the EU? The 'truth' always was that Scotland NI and Wales and England would have to do what the UK as a whole decided to do.

So that was a 'lie' whether or not people foresaw what happened just a few years after or not.

There was also the other 'lie's' as outlined in the article linked to.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I missed your question Rob. I posted a list of 17 of them earlier in reply to Aegir...who went off in a rant. :cool:

you posted a convenient list of gripes the pro Scottish Independence guys have.

The SNP lied as much as anyone, but of course, you wouldn't dare criticise them :rolleyes:

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

Nobody knew what was going to happen in the 2016 brexit vote so saying Scotland was better off remaining in the UK in 2014 wasn't a lie.
I do think Johnson and co lied to everyone in the UK over brexit and were probably as shocked as the rest of us when they won.
You were wrong to say Scotland was lied to but saying the chickens were coming home to roost for Johnson and his cronies is true hopefully.

Did Scotland's No vote secure it's place in the EU? The 'truth' always was that Scotland NI and Wales and England would have to do what the UK as a whole decided to do.

So that was a 'lie' whether or not people foresaw what happened just a few years after or not.

There was also the other 'lie's' as outlined in the article linked to.

If the Scottish independence referendum was 2 years before the brexit vote how has anyone been lied to,unless you had a crystal ball ,nobody knew what was going to happen in 2016!

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

you posted a convenient list of gripes the pro Scottish Independence guys have.

The SNP lied as much as anyone, but of course, you wouldn't dare criticise them :rolleyes:

The SNP might well have told lies and might still be.
The point was that the ruling party (Basically an English Tory party and it's Scottish support, told lies to the Scots in order to win the referendum.

Are they doing it again in order to get the Brexit they want and who will suffer for it? May told Unionists that the priority for her was the Union and then attempted to sell them out, for instance.

Donnielighto

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did Scotland's No vote secure it's place in the EU? The 'truth' always was that Scotland NI and Wales and England would have to do what the UK as a whole decided to do.

So that was a 'lie' whether or not people foresaw what happened just a few years after or not.

There was also the other 'lie's' as outlined in the article linked to.

You can't lie in good faith. It's a mistake but the scenario at the time was that eu membership guaranteed by voting no, it was, there was no time limit given as far as I know so it wasn't a lie as they are still members, if this is getting pedantic.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the Scottish independence referendum was 2 years before the brexit vote how has anyone been lied to,unless you had a crystal ball ,nobody knew what was going to happen in 2016!

Because it was untrue, the 'truth' always was that Scotland, NI, Wales and England would have to do what the UK as a whole decided to do.

Proved, as you say, 2 years later.

Odhinn

They added: "The Court will accordingly make an Order declaring that the prime minister's advice to HM the Queen and the prorogation which followed thereon was unlawful and is thus null and of no effect."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-49661855


I thought that the queen essentially has to say "yes" to whatever is put to her? Or is that not the case?

RobMc59

Odhinn wrote: »

They added: "The Court will accordingly make an Order declaring that the prime minister's advice to HM the Queen and the prorogation which followed thereon was unlawful and is thus null and of no effect."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-49661855


I thought that the queen essentially has to say "yes" to whatever is put to her? Or is that not the case?

I was under the impression that the Queen would follow the advice of the Prime Minister as you say.
It will be interesting to see how that is affected now that advice is unlawful.The old saying 'cat amongst the pigeons'springs to mind!

Markcheese

Odhinn wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-49661855


I thought that the queen essentially has to say "yes" to whatever is put to her? Or is that not the case?

Essentially yes, which is why the Queen can't be at fault, however the "advice" given by her ministers could be deemed illegal...
I think the Scottish courts view was that prorogueing parliament was unlawful because it was being done to trying to stymie parliament...

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I missed your question Rob. I posted a list of 17 of them earlier in reply to Aegir...who went off in a rant. :cool:

Are you saying that you asked 17 questions but didn't answer one?

Or that you answered 17 questions?

threeball

A unionist commentator on newstalk earlier pretty much of the opinion that I expressed yesterday. Boris will talk about bridges etc. but is going to shaft the DUP with a border down the Irish sea. The DUP are desperately trying to find way to frame it as a win. Boris will take Britain out on a deal close to the may one.

cryptocurrency

threeball wrote: »

A unionist commentator on newstalk earlier pretty much of the opinion that I expressed yesterday. Boris will talk about bridges etc. but is going to shaft the DUP with a border down the Irish sea. The DUP are desperately trying to find way to frame it as a win. Boris will take Britain out on a deal close to the may one.

So are you saying the UK will be under the ECJ ruling still and will lose fishing, migrant controls and military and security independence as per Mays deal.

Junkyard Tom

Aegir wrote: »

The GFA excuse is just that, an excuse.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

An excuse for what by who?

Any response Aegir? Is there some sort of conspiracy you're aware of?

Junkyard Tom

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Any response Aegir? Is there some sort of conspiracy you're aware of?

I missed this.

A politician telling people that we can't do something, because it's a bit hard isn't really a good reason for not doing something (ie, putting a physical border in place).

Getting people up in arms about imaginary breaches of the GFA is far better, especially when you can blame someone else.

Bannasidhe

Aegir wrote: »

Scotland isn't in the EU, the UK is. Scotland would be an independent country and would need to apply for membership. It would cease to benefit from any EU trade deals and be subject to trading with the rest of the world on WTO terms. This would mean the need for a hard border.

First they would have to establish some form of border protection, as this isn't a devolved competency, demonstrate to the EU that they can successfully manage these borders, apply for membership and demonstrate they have met all the membership criteria.

Presuming of course, that is what people wanted. As the debacle over Rockall demonstrated, the Scottish Fishing industry is a very powerful lobby and they wanted out of the eu. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/04/scotland-fishing-federation-ministers-brexit-eu-referendum

If the UK leaving the EU is a cluster****, Scotland leaving the UK would be even worse.

I don't recall it ever being established at the time of the 2014 Scot Ind Ref that Scotland would, if independent, have to leave the EU. I do remember the 'United Together' campaign claiming it would - and indeed using EU membership as a 'scare tactic' - but that is not proof it would have happened.

Indeed, it could be argued that as the claim was that as it was the United Kingdom who were members by breaking up the UK Scotland would be out of the EU - then surely England would also have been out.
England + Wales do not make up the United Kingdom. That only came into existence in 1707 with the union of England and Scotland.
Logically, if the UK broke into it's two constitute kingdoms then either both or neither would have to leave the EU.

Perhaps the Brexiteers should be campaigning for Scottish independence.

The Scottish fishing lobby may be powerful - but they didn't get the vote out in Scotland when it came to leaving did they?
62% voted to Remain.

Hammer Archer

Brexiteers: We want to take control of our laws by leaving the EU.

British judge: What the PM did broke British laws.

Brexiteers: Wait, not like that!

Bannasidhe

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Brexiteers: We want to take control of our laws by leaving the EU.

British judge: What the PM did broke British laws.

Brexiteers: Wait, not like that!

Ironic that England's two Gaelic neighbours whom they put such effort into Anglicizing are now causing them a bit of a headache.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't recall it ever being established at the time of the 2014 Scot Ind Ref that Scotland would, if independent, have to leave the EU. I do remember the 'United Together' campaign claiming it would - and indeed using EU membership as a 'scare tactic' - but that is not proof it would have happened.

Indeed, it could be argued that as the claim was that as it was the United Kingdom who were members by breaking up the UK Scotland would be out of the EU - then surely England would also have been out.
England + Wales do not make up the United Kingdom. That only came into existence in 1707 with the union of England and Scotland.
Logically, if the UK broke into it's two constitute kingdoms then either both or neither would have to leave the EU.

Perhaps the Brexiteers should be campaigning for Scottish independence.

Scotland leaving the UK would be like Catalonia leaving Spain, or Saxony leaving Germany. Spain would still exist and The federal Republic of Germany would still exist. It would be the break away region that lost its membership. At least Spain and France would certainly make sure that it was.

There were no guarantees, only a few comments from various european leaders. Hence the statement from Better together about only voting remain secured EU membership. Admittedly, that was true only at the time.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Scottish fishing lobby may be powerful - but they didn't get the vote out in Scotland when it came to leaving did they?
62% voted to Remain.

some areas of Scotland only narrowly voted to remain and those were SNP strongholds like Moray and Banff. Seats the SNP lost at the last general election.

Bannasidhe

Aegir wrote: »

Scotland leaving the UK would be like Catalonia leaving Spain, or Saxony leaving Germany. Spain would still exist and The federal Republic of Germany would still exist. It would be the break away region that lost its membership. At least Spain and France would certainly make sure that it was.

There were no guarantees, only a few comments from various european leaders. Hence the statement from Better together about only voting remain secured EU membership. Admittedly, that was true only at the time.



some areas of Scotland only narrowly voted to remain and those were SNP strongholds like Moray and Banff. Seats the SNP lost at the last general election.

You are incorrect.

The United Kingdom exists because the Parliaments of Scotland and England voted to unite in 1707. Up until that point they were only loosely legally united albeit ruled by the same monarch (Hanover was for a time ruled by the British king but never became part of UK). In 1707 the United Kingdom of Great Britain was born due to the union of parliaments as it is known. If those two parliaments break apart the UK no longer exists.

The situation with Germany (made up of Palatinates, Duchies, Principalities, Kingdoms etc) was not the same thing. Plus there have been 'tweaks' to Germany - Prussia no longer exists yet when Germany unified it was the most powerful state in the union.
Spain was united by Ferdinand and Isabella by conquest and marriage strategies but did not officially become 'Spain' as we know it until the reign of Charles I as Aragon and Castile were technically still separate kingdoms under Ferdinand and Isabella. Philip II 'added' Portugal but that broke away again.

You didn't pick very good examples tbh.

It's more like Yugoslavia. That was made up of different 'countries' when it broke up Yugoslavia ceased to exist.

62% is not 'narrow' - 51.9% is 'narrow'

Very interesting intervention from the head of Germany's top business lobby group being reported on The Irish Times this evening:

German business ‘unwavering’ in support for Brexit backstop: Germany’s top business lobby says industry remains fully behind Ireland’s stance

Nice to know 'plucky little Ireland' has friends in her 'hour of need', to use the maudlin terminology of the British poppy brigade. Time to end the British state in this country for once and for all and free our people from being at the mercy of these jingoistic English cúnts and their centuries-long playing of the 'Orange card' in the remnant of their Irish colony.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Very interesting intervention from the head of Germany's top business lobby group being reported on The Irish Times this evening:

German business ‘unwavering’ in support for Brexit backstop: Germany’s top business lobby says industry remains fully behind Ireland’s stance

Nice to know 'plucky little Ireland' has friends in her 'hour of need', to use the maudlin terminology of the British poppy brigade. Time to end the British state in this country for once and for all and free our people from being at the mercy of these jingoistic English cúnts and their centuries-long playing of the 'Orange card' in the remnant of their Irish colony.

Personally my priority would be to see the tentacles of the Roman Catholic Church removed completely from State services.

Lot of abuses took place in 'free' Ireland that had feck all to do with the British State - which provided a safe heaven for those who did not conform to 'free' Ireland's version of what being Irish means.
Myself included.

McMurphy

Yellow hammer can be read here

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/831199/20190802_Latest_Yellowhammer_Planning_assumptions_CDL.pdf

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Personally my priority would be to see the tentacles of the Roman Catholic Church removed completely from State services.

Lot of abuses took place in 'free' Ireland that had feck all to do with the British State - which provided a safe heaven for those who did not conform to 'free' Ireland's version of what being Irish means.
Myself included.

If the Roman Catholic Church were running the statelet in the northeastern part of this country and posing a massive economic, social and political threat to Irish society by their own version of Brexit that might be relevant. They're not, so it's not. Shifting blame on to the RCC for this is a complete strawman.

Brexit is showing, once again, the serious consequences for the rest of Ireland of a British state remaining in this country. Even the most mé féiner Blueshirt in Dublin 4 realises the cost for this society of putting a 500km-long border in place, not to mention that the British state will always have the Irish state by the balls - be it aligning our VAT rates, legislation, political policies, or whatever - via their presence here.

threeball

Deleted User wrote: »

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Personally my priority would be to see the tentacles of the Roman Catholic Church removed completely from State services.

Lot of abuses took place in 'free' Ireland that had feck all to do with the British State - which provided a safe heaven for those who did not conform to 'free' Ireland's version of what being Irish means.
Myself included.

If the Roman Catholic Church were running the statelet in the northeastern part of this country and posing a massive economic, social and political threat to Irish society by their own version of Brexit that might be relevant. They're not, so it's not. Shifting blame on to the RCC for this is a complete strawman.

Brexit is showing, once again, the serious consequences for the rest of Ireland of a British state remaining in this country. Even the most mé féiner Blueshirt in Dublin 4 realises the cost for this society of putting a 500km-long border in place, not to mention that the British state will always have the Irish state by the balls - be it aligning our VAT rates, legislation, political policies, or whatever - via their presence here.

Don't panic. The DUP and Tories have done more damage to the UK through their misplaced nationalism than 30yrs of IRA bombs ever did. Just sit back and watch them tear themselves apart. If Sinn Fein had any sense they'd shut their mouth and do the same.

Aegir,

You know, I know, and we all know, the only fair and democratic solution to this is to partition Britain and England. If partition was good enough for you English to do it to the Irish and Indians, it's surely good enough for yourselves?

If you're going to sit there and contend that the "majority in [your gerrymandered statelet of] Northern Ireland" have a right to stay in your preferred union of the "United Kingdom", then surely as a proud English democrat you will accept that London and other areas of England where a majority voted to remain in the EU should have a right to opt out of your Brexit Home Rule state and remain as part of the European Union?

Please do explain the English nationalist double standard on democracy right there.

threeball

threeball wrote: »

Don't panic. The DUP and Tories have done more damage to the UK through their misplaced nationalism than 30yrs of IRA bombs ever did. Just sit back and watch them tear themselves apart. If Sinn Fein had any sense they'd shut their mouth and do the same.

You're not wrong there, but we shouldn't be keeping our head in the sand about the serious long-term consequences for this state, and its independence, of the British state remaining in Ireland. Brexit is bringing this home on a spectacular level to many Irish people who would have been too far from the border to view its existence as threatening.