Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

J Mysterio

Aegir wrote: »

As a historian, would you look Kwasi Kwarteng in the eye and tell him he is a little Englander and that Brexit is all about a return of the British Empire?

I would say he was complicit in hastening the unfortunate demise of the UK.

tigger123

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Ginger_Ollie/status/1171887371740176386

I probably wouldn't have posted this except for the fact that she is doubling down and replying in thread :pac:

They're going full Mad Max over there.

J Mysterio

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Her son has gotten an Irish passport (he qualifies through his father) and is looking at moving over here because he feels Brexitted UK will be suffocating.

I saw Richard Dawkins said yesterday that he would love to move here and "love to become an Irish citizen". No Irish grandparent unfortunately. Would be happy to have him!

FrancieBrady

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I agree. It does stem from the same place. A mythical past where an isolated and 'pure' population who were homogeneous in matters of ethnicity, race, and religion lived perfect lives.

It's complete rubbish.

Can you point to where Irish republicanism does this? I think the difference between the two islands is now quite pronounced in that we wish to build a forward looking, inclusive society precisely because of what happened here in the past and that is the opposite to the isolationist, impossibly nostalgic quest that is going on on the island next door.

I see nobody here of any political weight advocating for a return to a' mythical past'.

Bannasidhe

Aegir wrote: »

there's been handbags at my parents bowls club between the brexiteers and the remainers, mainly thanks to my parents telling other septuagenerains that they are senile old gits who shouldn't have allowed to vote on an issue that will only affect them for a few years, but will affect their children and grandchildren for decades. (my mother is a firm remainer)

it is nothing about empire, or notions of ruling the world, it is about simply yearning back to a romantic simple, easier life of days gone by. A time when kids could play in the streets and you could go to the cinema and get a bag of chips on the way back and still have change from thruppence.

obviously they forgot about whooping cough and rickets, but I guess that is their memory deteriorating (as my mother not so politely told the club captain)

obviously, that then travels across the Irish sea and gets translated to "The Brits want their empire back", but it is nothing of the sort.

Of course, there are the knuckle draggers that want everyone who isn't a direct descendent of King Arthur to be thrown out of the country, but they are a small minority.

The problem with Brexit, is that there are a hundred and one reasons why people voted for it and ignoring that just ignores genuine issues that people have.

As a historian, would you look Kwasi Kwarteng in the eye and tell him he is a little Englander and that Brexit is all about a return of the British Empire?

As a historian I would say that the notion of 'empire' feeds into this whole concept of 'Blighty/ Britannia' and is part of nationalist mythology and cannot easily be untangled as it is subconscious. It goes to the heart of how UKGB sees it's position in the world as deserving of respect and far greater global influence then their size or economy deserves.

It's part of what makes the British feel 'special'. Dig down and ask but why are you special? Soon we get to what they feel is their impact and influence on the world - which was, when it boils down to it, the Empire

Bannasidhe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you point to where Irish republicanism does this? I think the difference between the two islands is now quite pronounced in that we wish to build a forward looking, inclusive society precisely because of what happened here in the past and that is the opposite to the isolationist, impossibly nostalgic quest that is going on on the island next door.

I see nobody here of any political weight advocating for a return to a' mythical past'.

No body said it was happening to any great extent now - although there are a few fringe groups blowing that particular horn.

However, it was very much a part of Irish Republicanism in the late 19th/early 20th century and did have a large influence on those who founded the State.

Lemass began the dismantling of it and it has steadily declined ever since - aided by our embracing of the EU.
We have gone from Dev's inward looking isolationist statelet to an outward looking country and, imho, are all the better for it.

FrancieBrady

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We have gone from Dev's inward looking isolationist statelet to an outward looking country and, imho, are all the better for it.

Absolutely agree.

FunLover18

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Ginger_Ollie/status/1171887371740176386

I probably wouldn't have posted this except for the fact that she is doubling down and replying in thread :pac:

Proof that anyone who uses the "title" of Esquire is an absolute c*nt.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As a historian I would say that the notion of 'empire' feeds into this whole concept of 'Blighty/ Britannia' and is part of nationalist mythology and cannot easily be untangled as it is subconscious. It goes to the heart of how UKGB sees it's position in the world as deserving of respect and far greater global influence then their size or economy deserves.

It's part of what makes the British feel 'special'. Dig down and ask but why are you special? Soon we get to what they feel is their impact and influence on the world - which was, when it boils down to it, the Empire

it isn't easy to untangle, you are right, although it is often said that the British don't actually appreciate the impact they have had on the world (both good and bad).

Obviously I can't speak for a whole nation, but I wold say what makes Britain special is that it gave some major things to the world, be that Shakespeare, Darwin, Babbage, the Meridian line or Cricket, Rugby and Football.

In fairness, I guess you could argue that the likes of Darwin and Cricket would not have been possible without empire, which is valid.

I think, in fairness, you would also have to accept that you are also looking at this from an Irish perspective and therefore a differing aspect of the British empire

davedanon

FunLover18 wrote: »

Proof that anyone who uses the "title" of Esquire is an absolute c*nt.

And JRM's 'house-style' diktat is having everyone addressed as such. Projection on little Jacob's part, no doubt.

McMurphy

FunLover18 wrote: »

Proof that anyone who uses the "title" of Esquire is an absolute c*nt.

Bill S Preston gonna be mad when he reads this.

blanch152

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I agree. It does stem from the same place. A mythical past where an isolated and 'pure' population who were homogeneous in matters of ethnicity, race, and religion lived perfect lives.

It's complete rubbish.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you point to where Irish republicanism does this? I think the difference between the two islands is now quite pronounced in that we wish to build a forward looking, inclusive society precisely because of what happened here in the past and that is the opposite to the isolationist, impossibly nostalgic quest that is going on on the island next door.

I see nobody here of any political weight advocating for a return to a' mythical past'.

It is there in the very terminology used. Just look at the thread on the reunification......what reunification? Ireland was never unified before the British came along.

The very language used by republicanism is evocative of a mythological past.

Professor Moriarty

blanch152 wrote: »

It is there in the very terminology used. Just look at the thread on the reunification......what reunification? Ireland was never unified before the British came along.

The very language used by republicanism is evocative of a mythological past.

Ireland was never a united state under a single form of governance. However, there was commonality of language, culture, society, system of law, religion, customs, etc.

Dytalus

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Ireland was never a united state under a single form of governance. However, there was commonality of language, culture, society, system of law, religion, customs, etc.

Indeed. There was an Irish nation, if not an Irish state.

Dyr

blanch152 wrote: »

It is there in the very terminology used. Just look at the thread on the reunification......what reunification? Ireland was never unified before the British came along.

The very language used by republicanism is evocative of a mythological past.

Are you still punting this line?

J Mysterio

Boris continuing to have a tough time on the streets...

https://twitter.com/clarefallon/status/1172454255762059264

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

Are you still punting this line?

Sometimes it is hard not to feel sorry for people like blanch...trapped in a stubbornness to accept.

blanch152

Dytalus wrote: »

Indeed. There was an Irish nation, if not an Irish state.

There is still an Irish nation, which is unified and has always been. No issue there.

An emerging Northern Irish national identity will challenge the unification of the Irish nation, but none of that negates the point that the Irish state was never unified until the British came along. So reunification of what?

mariaalice

Sorry for dragging it a bit of topic:pac:, FrancieBrady you are deluded if you think republicism was never infused with deluded fantasies of a pure celtic past unsullied by anything British.

To paraphrase the Chinese what happenes to the freal working class who define themselves by the tribe they belong too ( horrible pejorative word but cant think of anything better ) on both sides who 'resist' this new multicultural forward-looking inclusive society will they be sent for reeducation.

FrancieBrady

mariaalice wrote: »

Sorry for dragging it a bit of topic:pac:, FrancieBrady you are deluded if you think republicism was never infused with deluded fantasies of a pure celtic past unsullied by anything British.

To paraphrase the Chinese what happenes to the freal working class who define themselves by the tribe they belong too ( horrible pejorative word but cant think of anything better ) on both sides who 'resist' this new multicultural forward-looking inclusive society will they be sent for reeducation.

What?

Could you edit that to make sense?

J Mysterio

blanch152 wrote: »

There is still an Irish nation, which is unified and has always been. No issue there.

An emerging Northern Irish national identity will challenge the unification of the Irish nation, but none of that negates the point that the Irish state was never unified until the British came along. So reunification of what?

Brian Boru was the recognized High King of Ireland.

mariaalice

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

Could you edit that to make sense?

The Chinese response to the radicalism of Muslims in China is to provide resources and education but there is also a stick with the carrot along the lines of...If you 'resist' being lifted out of poverty.

Simplified version.

FrancieBrady

mariaalice wrote: »

The Chinese response to the radicalism of Muslims in China is to provide resources and education but there is also a stick with the carrot along the lines of...If you 'resist' being lifted out of poverty.

Simplified version.

and again...What?

What is your point?

mariaalice

FrancieBrady wrote: »

and again...What?

What is your point?

That a forward-looking multicultural inclusive society is a fantasy a nice fantasy but still a fantasy. The promis land is just around the corner.

FrancieBrady

mariaalice wrote: »

That a forward-looking multicultural inclusive society is a fantasy a nice fantasy but still a fantasy. The promis land is just around the corner.

I think we live in a country that is primarily forward looking and inclusive. Still has some issues on those fronts, but those 'issues' have not paralysed us politically as they have done with our nearest neighbours. I am very proud of what we have achieved here and cognisant that more needs to be done.

Not sure STILL what your problem is with that. There is nobody that I can see promoting a future

infused with deluded fantasies of a pure celtic past unsullied by anything British.

That's just ridiculous.

Kidchameleon

J Mysterio wrote: »

Boris continuing to have a tough time on the streets...

Great so an 18 second clip this week and a <10 second one last week. Yep that proof enough for me that everyone hates him. Tell my why the opposition are afraid of an election? Bear in mind they have their "guarantee" that no deal cannot happen...

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Great so an 18 second clip this week and a <10 second one last week. Yep that proof enough for me that everyone hates him. Tell my why the opposition are afraid of an election? Bear in mind they have their "guarantee" that no deal cannot happen...

They aren't afraid of an election...they are justifiably afraid that Boris will take them out on a No Deal.

Why do you ignore this motivation, it is just juvenile to continue doing it. Everything has a context.

FunLover18

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Great so an 18 second clip this week and a <10 second one last week. Yep that proof enough for me that everyone hates him. Tell my why the opposition are afraid of an election? Bear in mind they have their "guarantee" that no deal cannot happen...

There's never a guarantee of no no deal, the new legislation is only valid until late January AFAIK. It's guaranteed that Johnson has to ask for an extension whether the EU grant it or not is another question. Johnson has said numerous times that he doesn't want an election anyway so why is it is an issue that the opposition didn't vote for one?

davedanon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Great so an 18 second clip this week and a <10 second one last week. Yep that proof enough for me that everyone hates him. Tell my why the opposition are afraid of an election? Bear in mind they have their "guarantee" that no deal cannot happen...

Because they have made a political calculation that this will be to their electoral advantage. Can you understand that?


Also: Corbyn isn't an actual chicken. Those redtop front pages are all fake.

FrancieBrady

J Mysterio wrote: »

Boris continuing to have a tough time on the streets...

https://twitter.com/clarefallon/status/1172454255762059264

The 'office' of PM is now completely disrespected. As well as having a heckler at Sheffield, the lady summing up after his speech and in earshot of Boris, let him have it too.

M.C. - 'I'd like to say I am a 'girly swot' (referencing his speech) and proud of it too. (Applause)
We'll see who lasts longer in our jobs...' (Uproarious laughter).