Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Danzy

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The deal that is there was negotiated by May and dictated by what she thought the Tories wanted and the DUP would accept.

New government = different criteria - no reason a new deal cannot be negotiated. It would not necessarily be a radically different deal, juts a deal without May's red lines - although Corbyn might have some of his own.

If it meant the UK would finally bloody well leave and be done with it I am sure the EU would be willing to discuss the issues.

The chances of Corbyn being PM after the next election are small though.

They look like losing a lot of their working class base to Brexit party or people staying at home in disgust and much of their middle class base to the Lib Dems.

Bannasidhe

Danzy wrote: »

The chances of Corbyn being PM after the next election are small though.

They look like losing a lot of their working class base to Brexit party or people staying at home in disgust and much of their middle class base to the Lib Dems.

Corbyn was written off before the last GE too but he managed to do quite well.

Tbh, I have long felt that the road the Labour party took off down under Kinnock and his Red Rose nonsense which reached it's peak under Blair was to turn the party into The Whigs mkII.

It was not the socialist labour party of the working classes or Attlee.
'New' Labour was just the old centre- left Whigs not the socialist Left Labour that brought in the Welfare State and the NHS.
And the battle for the 'soul' of the Labour party continues between the socialist left and the liberal leftish.
The middle chattering classes who would have been natural whigs flocked to it - and now they are returning to the actual Whigs.

Laying my cards on the table - my middle class arse left the UK Labour Party when I saw what Kinnock was doing. If I wanted to be in that kind of party I would have joined the Lib Dems. But the politically ambitious wouldn't as their star was waning - so they joined Labour and subverted socialist into liberal.
I attended one too many party meetings in expensive houses in Islington whose owners proudly showed off their (unread) leather bound copies of Marx's greatest hits and sneered at the people living in the council estates to have any illusions about who was controlling Kinnock's LP.

Corbyn is a socialist. Some people don't like socialists. That's fine. But those same people tend to like the NHS, and old age pensions, and a welfare security blanket should they lose their jobs, and free primary and secondary education and all that other pinko stuff.

In today's labour party the liberal throw back to Blair aren't happy. Well boo hoo. Join the Whigs - it's where you belong.

Labour doesn't know what it is because it is meant to be a socialist party but many of it's MPs are whigs.

Let the Labour Party be socialist and the electorate can decide if they want to vote for them or not.

I have nothing against Whigs btw. Many great initiatives were brought in by the Whigs - but a Whig PM also oversaw partition of this island.

Peregrinus

Danzy wrote: »

The chances of Corbyn being PM after the next election are small though.

They look like losing a lot of their working class base to Brexit party or people staying at home in disgust and much of their middle class base to the Lib Dems.

Brexit Party voters are mostly ex-Tory, not ex-Labour. The Brexit Party competes for Tory votes and, the better the Brexit Party performs in a general election, the more likely Jeremy Corbyn is to be PM.

A strong Lib Dem performance doesn't prevent him from being PM either. As long as Labour has more seats that the Lib Dems, the Lib Dems will essentiall be in a position of deciding whether to back a Tory PM or a Labour PM (in both cases, from outside government, most likely). Labour would have to be the hot favourite to win that particular competition.

Dyr

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It was not the socialist labour party of the working classes or Attlee.
'New' Labour was just the old centre- left Whigs not the socialist Left Labour that brought in the Welfare State and the NHS.
And the battle for the 'soul' of the Labour party continues between the socialist left and the liberal leftish.
The middle chattering classes who would have been natural whigs flocked to it - and now they are returning to the actual Whigs.

Laying my cards on the table - my middle class arse left the UK Labour Party when I saw what Kinnock was doing. If I wanted to be in that kind of party I would have joined the Lib Dems. But the politically ambitious wouldn't as their star was waning - so they joined Labour and subverted socialist into liberal.

I have nothing against Whigs btw. Many great initiatives were brought in by the Whigs - but a Whig PM also oversaw partition of this island.

Middle class, unlike Corbyn Milne et al who left school at 13 to work down pit?

The far left politics that Corbyn represents was never the preserve of the working class, its was always a middle class endeavour. The working class have a thing for patriotism and law & order, stuff that Corbyn would be aghast at. You compared Corbyn to Atlee but Atlee was the head of a broad church. Corbyn is more like Foot.

begsbyOnaTrain

Bannasidhe wrote: »

In today's labour party the liberal throw back to Blair aren't happy. Well boo hoo. Join the Whigs - it's where you belong.

Did that apply to Corbs et al, who spent decades voting against Labour and what the party was then? Why didn't he jump to whatever alphabet soup leftie party that the Morning Star was endorsing?

Bannasidhe

Bambi wrote: »

Middle class, unlike Corbyn Milne et al who left school at 13 to work down pit?

The far left politics that Corbyn represents was never the preserve of the working class, its was always a middle class endeavour. The working class have a thing for patriotism and law & order, stuff that Corbyn would be aghast at. You compared Corbyn to Atlee but Atlee was the head of a broad church. Corbyn is more like Foot.

Corbyn is only 'far' left in the fevered imagination of those who think our own Labour Party are left wing.
And I didn't actually compare Corbyn to Attlee - I said those who support Corbyn want a return to the LP of Attlee and away from the whiggish Blair version.
Corbyn is no Attlee unfortunately. I wish he was.

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

Did that apply to Corbs et al, who spent decades voting against Labour and what the party was then? Why didn't he jump to whatever alphabet soup leftie party that the Morning Star was endorsing?

I have no idea why he didn't jump ship. You would have to ask him why de decided to remain in the LP and vote according to his beliefs.
Many people did leave the LP however, people who returned when Corbyn was elected leader.
Make of that what you will.

McMurphy

Supreme court has ruled that the prorogation of parliament was unlawful.

Boris potentially in some serious sh1t now.

FrancieBrady

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Supreme court has ruled that the prorogation of parliament was unlawful.

Boris potentially in some serious sh1t now.

'Rogue government'. Simple as that.

ohnonotgmail

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Supreme court has ruled that the prorogation of parliament was unlawful.

Boris potentially in some serious sh1t now.

Probably best to wait until we know what the ruling actually means.

Boggles

That was not just a ruling that was a scolding.

Dytalus

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Probably best to wait until we know what the ruling actually means.

Parliament is not prorogued. So the Commons can sit, effective immediately I believe.

ohnonotgmail

Dytalus wrote: »

Parliament is not prorogued. So the Commons can sit, effective immediately I believe.

Perhaps it does.

FunLover18

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Probably best to wait until we know what the ruling actually means.

I don't know what it means for Johnson personally but they basically said Parliament is not prorogued and it's up to the Speaker to decide what happens next. Unanimous decision as well.

begsbyOnaTrain

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have no idea why he didn't jump ship. You would have to ask him why de decided to remain in the LP and vote according to his beliefs.
Many people did leave the LP however, people who returned when Corbyn was elected leader.
Make of that what you will.

That the exact same will happen when Corbynites get the boot out of power within the party. And then those claiming ideological purity finally within the party, and that detractors should leave, will be laughed at as much as those who do so now.

McMurphy

Bercow will now recall parliament without delay.

Popcorn time.

tigger123

Boris is so f*cked; he's going to get thumped left right and centre in Parliament because of this.

FrancieBrady

tigger123 wrote: »

Boris is so f*cked; he's going to get thumped left right and centre in Parliament because of this.

Do they have an extradition treaty with the US...he might do a runner!

ohnonotgmail

Poor ol' boris will be waking up to a ****show.

Boggles

So the Queen broke the law.

Will they be kicking in the palace door or arresting her by appointment?

quokula

tigger123 wrote: »

Boris is so f*cked; he's going to get thumped left right and centre in Parliament because of this.

The thing is that everybody already knew this. So the Tories who stuck with him will presumably still stick with him. And everyone else was already thumping him.

It's a material change because it reconvenes parliament. But I don't see how anyone who thought proroguing was OK before will have suddenly changed their mind because the judges concluded what was already obvious to everyone.

ohnonotgmail

Boggles wrote: »

So the Queen broke the law.

Will they be kicking in the palace door or arresting her by appointment?

she did no such thing. she acted on the advice put to her. the advice was unlawful not her actions.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

she did no such thing. she acted on the advice put to her. the advice was unlawful not her actions.

One should have known better and told one to sling one's hook.

The palace are as culpable here as anyone, but of course it will be protected by it's simpering subjects.

Boggles

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

she did no such thing. she acted on the advice put to her. the advice was unlawful not her actions.

Ignorance of the law does not mean the law wasn't broken.

Neither does bogus advice.

Anyway nothing will happen her, my post was in jest.

tigger123

quokula wrote: »

The thing is that everybody already knew this. So the Tories who stuck with him will presumably still stick with him. And everyone else was already thumping him.

It's a material change because it reconvenes parliament. But I don't see how anyone who thought proroguing was OK before will have suddenly changed their mind because the judges concluded what was already obvious to everyone.

How do you mean "everyone knew this"? They didn't know it; the Supreme Court has just decided it was illegal.

Nobody is changing their mind on proroguing Parliament, but a parliamentary majority disagreed with it in the first place. So those people that disagreed with it previously still disagreed with it, and Boris will have to face the considerable music upon his return.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

One should have known better and told one to sling one's hook.

The palace are as culpable here as anyone, but of course it will be protected by it's simpering subjects.

Well of course you have an issue with what she did. You have an issue with her full stop. tedious.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Well of course you have an issue with what she did. You have an issue with her full stop. tedious.

Tough day for you guys. My sympathies.

Bannasidhe

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

That the exact same will happen when Corbynites get the boot out of power within the party. And then those claiming ideological purity finally within the party, and that detractors should leave, will be laughed at as much as those who do so now.

Which is the internal business of the Labour Party. I have no skin in the game. I no longer live in the UK and am no longer a member of any political party.

And say what you will - despite all the attempts to portray him as the big bad bogeyman Corbyn didn't illegally try and shut down parliament.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Tough day for you guys. My sympathies.

my guys? not sure who you think "my guys" are.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

my guys? not sure who you think "my guys" are.

Those 'guys' who will broach no criticism of the UK.

Why are you so protective of the palace here...they plainly ****ed up and suppressed democracy. They are as culpable as Boris is. Even if the royalists won't admit it.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Those 'guys' who will broach no criticism of the UK.

Why are you so protective of the palace here...they plainly ****ed up and suppressed democracy. They are as culpable as Boris is. Even if the royalists won't admit it.

I am protecting nobody. I merely corrected the poster.