Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Bannasidhe

dinorebel wrote: »

They did name a submersible the ship carries Boaty McBoatface

That's a stupid name for a submarine.

Should have named that Johnpaulgeorgeandringo.

dinorebel

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That's a stupid name for a submarine.

Should have named that Johnpaulgeorgeandringo.

it's yellow as well

FrancieBrady

The state of UK politics in a look.

https://twitter.com/cliodiaspora/status/1176982099859058689

mattser

Nobody more suitable for a polar research ship to be called after than Sir David.

Timberrrrrrrr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The state of UK politics in a look.

https://twitter.com/cliodiaspora/status/1176982099859058689

Stupid man makes stupid comment, I'd better stock up on canned goods and bottled water.

ohnonotgmail

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Stupid man makes stupid comment, I'd better stock up on canned goods and bottled water.

there was some tory politician (whose name i cannot remember) on BBC breakfast who said he was proud of how Johnson behaved in parliament. that is what you are up against.

Timberrrrrrrr

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there was some tory politician (whose name i cannot remember) on BBC breakfast who said he was proud of how Johnson behaved in parliament. that is what you are up against.

Yup, you will always get one or 3 who will follow blindly and never criticise no matter the leader, no matter the country.

markodaly

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I don't think that we live far from the tipping point at any time. When we look at the London riots it was a police killing that set it off, while not a common occurrence, unfortunately not an exceptional one either.

Demonstrations both for and against Brexit have been largely peaceful to date and while the political rhetoric has been ramped up of late and words do matter, they're is no evidence to suggest that political violence is about to break out in the UK.

There are some posters here almost wetting themselves at the prospect of disorder, but it doesn't mean it will happen. The "dangerous state" as they put it.

That hyperbolic nonsense says more about their own prejudices than anything else. And when you see the posters making these claims, it's hard not to put two and two together and get the 4 that is that their Republican leanings are colouring their judgement.

Fanatastic post.

In fairness, I think the whole Brexit thing has been remarkably calm on the streets.

In contrast, look at France when they had the Yellow Vest protests. Paris was on lockdown for numerous weekends, with hundreds injured in rioting and with a number dead.
That was over a simple carbon tax!

Look at Hong Kong, now that IS a volatile situation but they are dealing with a totalitarian government to be fair.

If you ignore the chatter online and in the general media, the debate about Brexit is quite clam actually. Brits do politics a bit different I suppose.
That is not to say these are normal times in British politics as what is happening now will have far-reaching consequences but for those predicting mass riots, civil war, revolution or whatever, that is not really going to happen and says more about them to be honest.

FrancieBrady

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Stupid man makes stupid comment, I'd better stock up on canned goods and bottled water.

Keep up the snide commentary Timberrrr to deflect. Here is what I said, after somebody exaggerated what was said. But no doubt you will ignore that too.

FrancieBrady wrote:

'Civil order' doesn't need to break down for it to be a dangerous and volatile place.

MP's reporting more death threats overnight, perfectly normal no doubt.

markodaly

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1177166970636132352?s=19

Christ! What is up with Labour. Utterly useless.

begsbyOnaTrain

markodaly wrote: »

Christ! What is up with Labour. Utterly useless.

And good ol' FPTP gives them 100 seats more than another party with the same vote percentage!

Bannasidhe

markodaly wrote: »

If you ignore the chatter online and in the general media, the debate about Brexit is quite clam actually. Brits do politics a bit different I suppose.
That is not to say these are normal times in British politics as what is happening now will have far-reaching consequences but for those predicting mass riots, civil war, revolution or whatever, that is not really going to happen and says more about them to be honest.

I warned about the potential for civil turmoil.
And I honestly think the potential is there.

Ignoring the warnings leads to people saying 'we never saw that coming' - and historians rolling their eyes.

As for 'The Brits' doing politics a bit differently - differently from whom?
Historically they have had 3 civil wars, a dictatorship, beheaded one king, invited the son-in-law of another king to 'replace' him, passed over 56 people in direct line for the throne to offer it to a German protestant, mass executions of people in public, several uprisings - all of which were put down with frankly brutal methods.

More recently in a part of the UK they had to physically divide 2 communities and place armed troops on the streets for decades.

Between 1980 and 2011 there have been 26 riots in England - some of which like the 1981 riots took place in various locations across the country but I have counted them as 1(Brixton, Chapeltown, Toxteth, Moss Side, Handsworth) so it would be accurate to say there was 30 serious riots in 31 years in England.

What there has not been for 377 years is a level of political division like is currently happening.

I am not saying there will be turmoil - I am saying that the potential is there and it would be foolish to dismiss it.

Danzy

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Survation yesterday: Tory 27%, Lab 24%, Lib 22%, Brexit 16%
Com Res two days ago: Tory 27%, Lab 27%, Lib 20%, Brexit 17%

The Labour Conference gave lots of material for Labour's opponents to tear them down further.

Often bizarre positions and policies voted for.

Brexit might be enough of a distraction though.

Professor Moriarty

Danzy wrote: »

The Labour Conference gave lots of material for Labour's opponents to tear them down further.

Often bizarre positions and policies voted for.

Yeah. Conference is a bubble. All good friends and jolly good company. Outside the bubble, Labour continues to underperform and Corbyn remains anchored to a 19% approval rating.

Kermit.de.frog

Boggles

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1177166970636132352?s=19

Projected 348 seats for the Conservatives?

I think that twitter account has been at the crack pipe.

threeball

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I warned about the potential for civil turmoil.
And I honestly think the potential is there.

Ignoring the warnings leads to people saying 'we never saw that coming' - and historians rolling their eyes.

As for 'The Brits' doing politics a bit differently - differently from whom?
Historically they have had 3 civil wars, a dictatorship, beheaded one king, invited the son-in-law of another king to 'replace' him, passed over 56 people in direct line for the throne to offer it to a German protestant, mass executions of people in public, several uprisings - all of which were put down with frankly brutal methods.

More recently in a part of the UK they had to physically divide 2 communities and place armed troops on the streets for decades.

Between 1980 and 2011 there have been 26 riots in England - some of which like the 1981 riots took place in various locations across the country but I have counted them as 1(Brixton, Chapeltown, Toxteth, Moss Side, Handsworth) so it would be accurate to say there was 30 serious riots in 31 years in England.

What there has not been for 377 years is a level of political division like is currently happening.

I am not saying there will be turmoil - I am saying that the potential is there and it would be foolish to dismiss it.

The British establishment have for too long blamed the boogeyman Johnny Foreigner for every woe that has beset the country and whats worse people have lapped it up. Towns that were torn apart by Tory policies are now voting Tory and Brexit cos Johnny Foreigner is taking their jobs.

I was looking at the documentary running on BBC2 on how the Nazi's came to power and the parallels are absolutely there for all to see. Placing the blame for the countries ills on everyone else, if we had our own autonomy we'd be the best in the world, serious political maneouvrings that ignored all laws, cosying up to the head of state to present yourself as a reasonable face with the best interests of the country as heart. All tactics that Hitler and the Nazi's used to push through their version of reform.

I'm not saying for one minute that Johnson will turn on a particular sector and go into genocide mode but he and the Brexiteers in general are creating an atmosphere of hatred for everything that isn't British. Blame for ignoring half the country and investing nothing into them has been thrown on to the EU and the jobs that are there are scooped up by an endless overwhelming tide of immigration when nothing could be further from the truth. The ill's of the country lie firmly at the door of westminister and that reality will be laid bare for all to see if Brexit happens.

begsbyOnaTrain

Boggles wrote: »

Projected 348 seats for the Conservatives?

I think that twitter account has been at the crack pipe.

Whilst fluctuations have been... notable in polls, I have no reason to doubt Yougov's integrity.

markodaly

As for 'The Brits' doing politics a bit differently - differently from whom?

The Brits do protest differently than the French to take one example.

Between 1980 and 2011 there have been 26 riots in England - some of which like the 1981 riots took place in various locations across the country but I have counted them as 1(Brixton, Chapeltown, Toxteth, Moss Side, Handsworth) so it would be accurate to say there was 30 serious riots in 31 years in England.

Is that all? The French racked that in one year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement#Fatalities_and_injuries

The type of 'street politics' and violence that can be commonplace in Europe is not really seen in Britan or here.

I am not saying there will be turmoil - I am saying that the potential is there and it would be foolish to dismiss it.

Of course, there is potential. There is always the potential for turmoil, even in Ireland. I am not denying that.
The point is some people get a hard-on about this stuff and are proclaiming all kinds of guff and they usually wrong.

Let us see how it plays out first shall we before we declare a Russian style revolution of sorts.

Goldengirl

Blame will be put on the Irish and the so called Irish backstop. Not a country for Irish again!

Never mind the fact that quite a few of the Conservative Brexiteers are lining their pockets and stashing the money through all of this, many who are fully aware of this , will continue to vote Tory because it maintains the status quo for the moneyed rich in the South , who don't give a damn about the ordinary public, or rest of country , unless they need them to dig a field or go down a pit!
These will never vote for a party , who ,although they may publicly say they agree with their socialist or liberal agenda, threaten all that the Tory voter holds dear...private education and privilege, jobs for the old school boys/ girls and nepotism , upward mobility, the monarchy and of course honours in the form of knighthoods etc doled out to the rich and (in)famous

knipex

markodaly wrote: »

Christ! What is up with Labour.

Have you been keeping up with the conference ??

The party had been taken over by a lunatic fringe. In the middle of a Tory meltdown Labour decided to have an internal crisis and a meltdown of its own...

Both parties are now run by hard core minority fringes for who any debate or compromise is just another word for surrender.

UK politics is fuc**d

It doesn't matter if the EU gave them a 12 month extension they still wouldn't agree what to do. They cannot even agree what they want inside the parties let alone as a nation.

Bannasidhe

markodaly wrote: »

The Brits do protest differently than the French to take one example.




Is that all? The French racked that in one year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement#Fatalities_and_injuries

The type of 'street politics' and violence that can be commonplace in Europe is not really seen in Britan or here.




Of course, there is potential. There is always the potential for turmoil, even in Ireland. I am not denying that.
The point is some people get a hard-on about this stuff and are proclaiming all kinds of guff and they usually wrong.

Let us see how it plays out first shall we before we declare a Russian style revolution of sorts.

By making comments about the Russian Revolution all it tells me is that you are basically ignoring what is happening and the danger it presents. I certainly didn't mention revolution - Russian or otherwise.

I said taking all the diverse events into account there is the very real potential for very serious turmoil.
And should it happen people like you will say 'we never saw that coming.'
Because that is what happens.

You can dismiss it as guff if you wish. I can assure you I am certainly not getting any thrills from it and I hope things calm down.


The UK and France are two different countries with very different histories, politics, and composition. For a start France was invaded and occupied twice during the first half of the last century. England hasn't been invaded since 1066. They have no tradition of 'resistance'. They do not have the same view of taking to the streets as the French have - it's almost considered a civic duty there.


The fact is they do riot in England. There have been race riots as far back as 1919. There have been industrial disputes such as the Miners Strike and the Print workers strike that saw serious violence. Don't act like rioting is something the English don't do because the facts are there to show you are wrong.

You know who don't really riot? The Irish.

SeaBreezes

Goldengirl wrote: »

Blame will be put on the Irish and the so called Irish backstop. Not a country for Irish again!

Never mind the fact that quite a few of the Conservative Brexiteers are lining their pockets and stashing the money through all of this, many who are fully aware of this , will continue to vote Tory because it maintains the status quo for the moneyed rich in the South , who don't give a damn about the ordinary public, or rest of country , unless they need them to dig a field or go down a pit!
These will never vote for a party , who ,although they may publicly say they agree with their socialist or liberal agenda, threaten all that the Tory voter holds dear...private education and privilege, jobs for the old school boys/ girls and nepotism , upward mobility, the monarchy and of course honours in the form of knighthoods etc doled out to the rich and (in)famous

In fairness to Boris siblings, privileged upbringing but seem like decent folk. Also the House of Lords rushed through the can't crash out bill. Even though it likely will cost them personally financially.

FunLover18

Rachel Johnson has joined the LibDems only a few weeks after his brother quit. Supposedly she also claimed that he could be under pressure from those trying to short the pound via no deal. haven't seen the clip myself though. Judging by my Twitter feed, his comments last night about Jo Cox seem to have crossed a line with a lot of people. He'll presumably be asked to apologise if he hasn't already.

FrancieBrady

Bannasidhe wrote: »

By making comments about the Russian Revolution all it tells me is that you are basically ignoring what is happening and the danger it presents. I certainly didn't mention revolution - Russian or otherwise.

I said taking all the diverse events into account there is the very real potential for very serious turmoil.
And should it happen people like you will say 'we never saw that coming.'
Because that is what happens.

You can dismiss it as guff if you wish. I can assure you I am certainly not getting any thrills from it and I hope things calm down.


The UK and France are two different countries with very different histories, politics, and composition. For a start France was invaded and occupied twice during the first half of the last century. England hasn't been invaded since 1066. They have no tradition of 'resistance'. They do not have the same view of taking to the streets as the French have - it's almost considered a civic duty there.


The fact is they do riot in England. There have been race riots as far back as 1919. There have been industrial disputes such as the Miners Strike and the Print workers strike that saw serious violence. Don't act like rioting is something the English don't do because the facts are there to show you are wrong.

You know who don't really riot? The Irish.

Might work?

Goldengirl

SeaBreezes wrote: »

In fairness to Boris siblings, privileged upbringing but seem like decent folk. Also the House of Lords rushed through the can't crash out bill. Even though it likely will cost them personally financially.

Yes , true, I was talking in general terms. Don't know much about Boris's family but his brother seems to have some moral code.
My point is , why would your "average" Tory voter change their vote even if they find the more extreme of the party too right wing ? They are completely
polarised , from their peers in Labour and Lib Dem , especially Labour, who have gone back to a lot of their far left policies of the past.

Danzy

Boggles wrote: »

Projected 348 seats for the Conservatives?

I think that twitter account has been at the crack pipe.

Most polls have the Tories 7 to 10 points ahead.

Add in Labour's conference and that may increase.

briany

All Boris has to do, if he wants his no-deal Brexit is go to Brussels, get the extension (if it's going), come back and say, "OK, now general election?" and then as soon as Labour agree, he can pivot his campaign to, "OK, I know we didn't deliver Brexit on the 31st, but if the people vote in a Conservative majority now, we pledge to immediately go to Brussels with the intention of quitting the EU forthwith."

This being predicated on the fact that the UK could always have quit the EU in these extension periods, as far as I know, they just never had the parliamentary majority for it. However, if the Conservatives had a more 'ideologically pure' parliamentary party, then they could get this over the line.

FunLover18

briany wrote: »

All Boris has to do, if he wants his no-deal Brexit is go to Brussels, get the extension (if it's going), come back and say, "OK, now general election?" and then as soon as Labour agree, he can pivot his campaign to, "OK, I know we didn't deliver Brexit on the 31st, but if the people vote in a Conservative majority now, we pledge to immediately go to Brussels with the intention of quitting the EU forthwith."

This being predicated on the fact that the UK could always have quit the EU in these extension periods, as far as I know, they just never had the parliamentary majority for it. However, if the Conservatives had a more 'ideologically pure' parliamentary party, then they could get this over the line.

I don't think he can do that once the extension has been granted. It would be extremely bad form. He said yesterday that if all requirements were met for the Benn legislation he wouldn't ask for an extension anyway.

joseywhales

Surely the EU will not grant an extension until a GE or referendum is scheduled, Labour will not call a no confidence vote until there is an extension, seems like we have found the impasse that needs to be solved. An agreement between labour and EU should ensure an extension and a GE, an hopefully we can get to the finish line from that.....please f*cking god.