Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Strazdas

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Brexit has been a monumental mistake for the British. The ones hurt the most will be the ones who voted against it, namely the Scottish and Northern Irish.

I cannot imagine the worry of being a Northern Irish farmer with quality beef ready to sell have the rug pulled from under them, and with a family to support. It is a tragic misstep, voted by people who didn't consider anything nor anybody before voting, just being swept away on a wave of islamophobia. Vote to leave the EU and no more crazy muslims blowing themselves up. Ridiculous scare-mongering. My wife's father is from Newcastle and voted for Brexit because he didn't like the Burkha. My wife's sister voted for Brexit because she didn't like the Euro. A total nonsense.

Most ironic is that one of the London Bridge murderers got into the UK via Ireland. He married an Irish woman. Yet, there is little focus on blocking illegal entry that way.

A monumental misstep that will set the UK back for decades.

It was never meant to happen. Cameron held the referendum as a cheap and cynical political stunt. There was no plan to implement it. Farage and Johnson assumed it would be lost and were planning accordingly.

KindOfIrish

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Most ironic is that one of the London Bridge murderers got into the UK via Ireland. He married an Irish woman. Yet, there is little focus on blocking illegal entry that way.
.

Most ironic is that 95% of illegal immigrants in Ireland got into here via UK. Yet, there is little support for hard border in Ireland

FrancieBrady

The most ironic thing for me is that the most imperialist, jingoistic leader they have had in modern times Thatcher was the chief architect of the Single Market they now want to leave because of nostalgia for jingoistic imperialist days.

blinding

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Historically we fought against the British empire. Every generation pretty much. We were one of the first to leave.

Part of Us .

PeadarCo

boege wrote:

I believe the EU will reopen negotiations to get a bilateral trade deal. Backstops and any other Irish protections will be back on the table. It is a economic inevitability due to the surplus of trade enjoyed by so many individual EU countries with the UK. It is these individual economic interests that will prevail.

You seem to be forgetting that over half of UK trade is done either directly with the EU or through EU trade agreements. Once it leaves the EU the UK leaves EU trade deals. So even if a country has a trade surplus with the UK its a small part of their overall trade even for a country like Ireland.

So in the event of a no deal Brexit the UK suddenly has to deal with tarrifs as its now outside the EU and all the paperwork of exporting and other regulatory barriers/hurdles. On top of suddenly having to negotiate new trade deals with non EU countries. And all of this in the shadow of the EU, where one of the big questions on the other side of the table is what is your deal with the EU.

tryfix

boege wrote: »

Of course not.

I believe the EU will reopen negotiations to get a bilateral trade deal. Backstops and any other Irish protections will be back on the table. It is a economic inevitability due to the surplus of trade enjoyed by so many individual EU countries with the UK. It is these individual economic interests that will prevail.

You may think that you're thinking rationally but forgetting that there's very little rational about this situation. The UK voted for BREXIT for political reasons. The BREXIT promoters successfully pushed the emotional buttons of enough UK voters to get them to vote out regardless of the consequences.

For the EU, if they cave in and give the UK a deal that breaks the four freedoms then there will be a queue of other EU countries lining up to get out of the EU. For existential reasons the EU won't cave in to UK demands.

Strazdas

tryfix wrote: »

You may think that you're thinking rationally but forgetting that there's very little rational about this situation. The UK voted for BREXIT for political reasons. The BREXIT promoters successfully pushed the emotional buttons of enough UK voters to get them to vote out regardless of the consequences.

For the EU, if they cave in and give the UK a deal that breaks the four freedoms then there will be a queue of other EU countries lining up to get out of the EU. For existential reasons the EU won't cave in to UK demands.

Indeed, the economic arguments for leaving were tacked on by the Leave campaign late in the day. The original reasons for leaving were purely 'sovereignty' ones.

The gullible Leave voters were lapping up the lies and propaganda about new trade deals though and thought this nonsense was real.

Faugheen

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Boris would not be my first choice but he has better negotiation skills than May. I dont like the EU because they do not respect democracy. The MEP's are there only for show, it is the unelected scumbags that are the real problem.

Better negotiator?

Boris couldn’t handle Coveney when the pair of them were up in front of the media of both countries when he was Foreign Secretary, trying to charm out the usual guff and pleasantries and Coveney made an absolute show of him.

Merkel, Macron, Barnier, even Arlene Foster would have him for breakfast.

Absolute nonsense that he’s a better negotiator when the only meaningful positions he’s ever had (Mayor of London and Foreign Secretary), he either did really **** or he ran away.

He’s a complete chancer. He agreed to May’s deal once there was a sniff of him being made PM involved.

FrancieBrady

Faugheen wrote: »

Better negotiator?

Boris couldn’t handle Coveney when the pair of them were up in front of the media of both countries when he was Foreign Secretary, trying to charm out the usual guff and pleasantries and Coveney made an absolute show of him.

Merkel, Macron, Barnier, even Arlene Foster would have him for breakfast.

Absolute nonsense that he’s a better negotiator when the only meaningful positions he’s ever had (Mayor of London and Foreign Secretary), he either did really **** or he ran away.

He’s a complete chancer. He agreed to May’s deal once there was a sniff of him being made PM involved.

Nobody, May, Corbyn, Hunt, Johnson etc is able to negotiate because the UK is paralysed internally.
And nobody within the UK seems to be able to negotiate a way out of that paralysis.

Edit: May was well able to negotiate and negotiated a deal, which both sides were happy with, but the UK squandered and destroyed it by being paralytic. That situation pertains.

ILoveYourVibes

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody, May, Corbyn, Hunt, Johnson etc is able to negotiate because the UK is paralysed internally.
And nobody within the UK seems to be able to negotiate a way out of that paralysis.

.

BINGO.

They would be easy to divide and rule.

Auguste Comte

This thread is comedy gold.

boege

boege wrote: »

If you really want to understand the dynamics and politics of the UK-EU relationship, see the graph below from a UK source.

Most countries in EU need or want access to the UK market. Ireland is a net importer. Now try predict who the EU will favour when the need arises.

Do you genuinely believe Britain is going to abnegate use of vehicles and vehicle parts, an enormous range of pharmaceuticals, wines, foods and so much more of what people there not only want but depend on and decide to go back to horse and carriage days, hocus pocus medical solutions and all the rest when Brexit happens?

Britain imports so much because it doesn't produce enough for its own needs. Britain was a financial services centre of the EU. It did really, really well from it, and this was really, really fortunate as it had long ceased being an industrial centre and needed a replacement. The EU's free market was absolutely essential to this, but Brexiteers misread history backwards to blame the EU for causing the industrial decline which was evident to most British people by 1926.

Moreover, after Brexit the English will still need and want these things so assuming they hold the cards here is a fundamental misreading of things. It's just that, with the way they're going, it will probably cost them more to import these essentials. Brexit is a self-inflicted travesty from start to finish.

First Up

Deleted User wrote:

Moreover, after Brexit the English will still need and want these things so assuming they hold the cards here is a fundamental misreading of things. It's just that, with the way they're going, it will probably cost them more to import these essentials. Brexit is a self-inflicted travesty from start to finish.

All of this.

Plus, the Single Market has allowed specialisation (everyone does what they do best) to flourish and create highly complex but efficient pan European supply chains.

These can involve a dozen or more companies, with goods crossing numerous borders numerous times as they move through the manufacturing process towards the customer/end user. The result - everyone wins.

A hard Brexit will at a stroke remove the UK from most of these arrangements and all over Europe companies are already adjusting to replace the UK components and processes.

The significance of this is lost on the flag waving Brexiteer dunces but it isn't lost on the UK companies that are watching much of their business disappear.

Boggles

First Up wrote: »

The significance of this is lost on the flag waving Brexiteer dunces but it isn't lost on the UK companies that are watching much of their business disappear.

Sometimes they can be one and the same. But even sneakier.

James Dyson had moved his belongings out before telling everyone to burn the house down.

That guy should be in the dictionary under 'hypocrisy' and 'bollix'.

amcalester

Boggles wrote: »

Sometimes they can be one and the same. But even sneakier.

James Dyson had moved his belongings out before telling everyone to burn the house down.

That guy should be in the dictionary under 'hypocrisy' and 'bollix'.

Sure Rees-Mogg was involved is setting up an investment company in Ireland which listed Brexit as a major investment risk.

Professor Moriarty

First Up wrote: »

All of this.

Plus, the Single Market has allowed specialisation (everyone does what they do best) to flourish and create highly complex but efficient pan European supply chains.

These can involve a dozen or more companies, with goods crossing numerous borders numerous times as they move through the manufacturing process towards the customer/end user. The result - everyone wins.

A hard Brexit will at a stroke remove the UK from most of these arrangements and all over Europe companies are already adjusting to replace the UK components and processes.

The significance of this is lost on the flag waving Brexiteer dunces but it isn't lost on the UK companies that are watching much of their business disappear.

Exactly. It's why they 'import' so much. Catastrophic isn't strong enough for No Deal.

Guy:Incognito

Surely Farage is a parody? Theres no way someone could post this being serious.

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1151186908392951809?s=19

Kidchameleon

Faugheen wrote: »

Better negotiator?

Boris couldn’t handle Coveney when the pair of them were up in front of the media of both countries when he was Foreign Secretary, trying to charm out the usual guff and pleasantries and Coveney made an absolute show of him.

Merkel, Macron, Barnier, even Arlene Foster would have him for breakfast.

Absolute nonsense that he’s a better negotiator when the only meaningful positions he’s ever had (Mayor of London and Foreign Secretary), he either did really **** or he ran away.

He’s a complete chancer. He agreed to May’s deal once there was a sniff of him being made PM involved.

Yes he is better than May. He has a track record of success (low crime and prosperity during his tenure as mayor) while May has a track record of failure (Brexit negociations). I never said he was the worlds greatest negociator, I simply said he was better than May. I also said he would not be my first choice. Personally, someone like Farage, would would leave on 31st Oct, deal or no deal would be my first choice.

Kidchameleon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Yes he is better than May. He has a track record of success (low crime and prosperity during his tenure as mayor) while May has a track record of failure (Brexit negociations). I never said he was the worlds greatest negociator, I simply said he was better than May. I also said he would not be my first choice. Personally, someone like Farage, would would leave on 31st Oct, deal or no deal would be my first choice.

While May was the Prime Minister, Boris sniped from the sidelines. It's easy being the hurler in the ditch when you've never been PM. He's in for an almighty landing.

kunst nugget

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Yes he is better than May. He has a track record of success (low crime and prosperity during his tenure as mayor) while May has a track record of failure (Brexit negociations). I never said he was the worlds greatest negociator, I simply said he was better than May. I also said he would not be my first choice. Personally, someone like Farage, would would leave on 31st Oct, deal or no deal would be my first choice.

You think Farage, who spent his time as an MEP shít-stirring and being a general nuisance, would be the best choice for negotiating a deal with the EU?

Are you high?

ambro25

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Yes he is better than May. He has a track record of success (low crime and prosperity during his tenure as mayor) while May has a track record of failure (Brexit negociations). I never said he was the worlds greatest negociator, I simply said he was better than May. I also said he would not be my first choice. Personally, someone like Farage, would would leave on 31st Oct, deal or no deal would be my first choice.

On those metrics, dare I ask what you consider to be Farage's (presumably still better-) track record of success, to validate your preference over Johnson?

Professor Moriarty

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Yes he is better than May. He has a track record of success (low crime and prosperity during his tenure as mayor) while May has a track record of failure (Brexit negociations). I never said he was the worlds greatest negociator, I simply said he was better than May. I also said he would not be my first choice. Personally, someone like Farage, would would leave on 31st Oct, deal or no deal would be my first choice.

Farage would have to be elected as an MP first. Perhaps sixth time lucky.

Boggles

Kidchameleon wrote: »

deal or no deal would be my first choice.

That's 2 choices.

Pretty important TBF.

meeeeh

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Personally, someone like Farage, would would leave on 31st Oct, deal or no deal would be my first choice.

Farage was on Yates yesterday and conceded VB probably won't leave in October. He might claim he wants to leave but he is not stupid enough to ignore the parliamentary arithmetic and opposition to no deal.

ancapailldorcha

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Farage would have to be elected as an MP first. Perhaps sixth time lucky.

Eighth.

storker

Deleted User wrote: »

While May was the Prime Minister, Boris sniped from the sidelines. It's easy being the hurler in the ditch when you've never been PM. He's in for an almighty landing.

<Bernard Woolley>The hurler has to be on the ditch. If he was in the ditch he wouldn't be able to see anything to make comments about.</Bernard Woolley>

Professor Moriarty

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Eighth.

Correct - he also contested two by-elections.

ancapailldorcha

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Correct - he also contested two by-elections.

I'm not normally so pedantic but I feel like it's worth pointing out in this instance.

blinding

Looking like No Deal now with Boris and Hunt both going that way . They ain’t accepting no backstop .

J Mysterio

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Eighth.

And he has actually tried different consituency's for a lot of these attempts has he not? So the population of various different towns have reject him, and not just one?