Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I couldn't care less who was 'first' tbh Aegir. Like most things it was never a light bulb moment, the US were the first to land and take off a ship for instance.

It is claiming/believing these things as sole British achievements that is the problem.

The British developed the concept and built the first flat deck aircraft carrier, which was the forefather to what we recognise today. They also carried out the first carrier launched air raid/

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Normally it's a silly and quaint quirk, (as when they claim somebody Irish born who has done good) but dangerous when that thinking informs a mythical place were they want to get back to.

what's quirky and quaint, francie, is the absolute seething that comes from your posts whenever there is a mention of the British doing anything first, or well or remotely positive. Your posts on the Rugby forum when England win a game have become the thing of legends and are now the only reason I read the forum, such is their comedy value.

biko

https://interactive.news.sky.com/2017/brexit-countdown/
17 days

Peregrinus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think that is called, you 'correcting an anomaly of the idiosyncratic, vainglorious British education system' . . .

Aegir wrote: »

No it’s not, it’s called pedantry I believe.

To be fair, it could be both.

Aegir wrote: »

The British were flying aircraft off HMS Argus in 1918, the ship that the Hoshu was pretty much designed on

Mmm. The actual fact is that several of the major naval powers had the same idea at the same time, and worked independently to develop it. Who came "first" depends on what milestone you want to pick - first launch of aircraft from ship, US Navy; first landing of aircraft on ship, US Navy; first launch of an aircraft from a ship while under way, Royal Navy; first vessel adapted as a seaplane carrier, Marine Nationale; first airstrike by ship-launched aircraft, Imperial Japanese Navy; first airstrike by aircraft launched from a ship converted for the purpose, Royal Navy. And so on.

The design of Hoshu was not based on the Argus. She was originally designed as a seaplane carrier, and the initial design was independent. A change of strategic thinking on the part of the IJN during her construction meant that the design was adapted to include a landing platform but, if any RN vessel influenced the adaptations, it was not the Argus but the Furious, herself a battlecruiser adapted by the addition of a landing platform.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

The British developed the concept and built the first flat deck aircraft carrier, which was the forefather to what we recognise today. They also carried out the first carrier launched air raid/

And we'll have 50 odd posts now as you highlight the things the British did in the development of Aircraft Carriers and ignore other critical developments. Like getting one in the actual fecking water!
The point is the belief the poster had, that Britain invented the AC and saved Beguim on it's own, and the iognorance that there were others involved.

what's quirky and quaint, francie, is the absolute seething that comes from your posts whenever there is a mention of the British doing anything first, or well or remotely positive. Your posts on the Rugby forum when England win a game have become the thing of legends and are now the only reason I read the forum, such is their comedy value.

I'd have thought my sporting dislike of France or Wales would be more legendary on that forum...but clearly you are only going to see what you want.

I have posted 144 times on the general World Cup thread and 7 of those posts were about 'England' games, three of them predicting an easy English win and two being critical of Argentinian naivety.

Sparse reading for you there Aegir or were you just lying about that? :D:D

Donnielighto

Tbf I think Francie is being fairly balanced here.


Peregrinus' follow-up post is excellent.

FrancieBrady

Donnielighto wrote: »

Tbf I think Francie is being fairly balanced here.


Peregrinus' follow-up post is excellent.

It is not as if the observation, that there is an educational deficit (real or adopted) at the heart of Britain's present predicament, is peculiar to Francie.
Aegir sees himself as some sort of policeman on this forum., stepping in when he sees certain posters contributing or feels that the OP is not able to answer the point for themselves.

The chan chan man

Is there any possibility at all that they would at this stage have another referendum and ultimately stay in the EU?

Nobody benefits from this nonsense!

The chan chan man

The chan chan man wrote: »

Is there any possibility at all that they would at this stage have another referendum and ultimately stay in the EU?

Nobody benefits from this nonsense!

The UK needs to leave first, or at least needs to get the interim agreement sorted out. When that is done and the negotiations on what the actual long term relationship will look like, then i believe there can be another referendum.

FrancieBrady

The chan chan man wrote: »

Is there any possibility at all that they would at this stage have another referendum and ultimately stay in the EU?

Nobody benefits from this nonsense!

Boris and his backers benefit from this.

There is nothing the EU can do but respond to requests for negotiations because anything else would be interference.

When the UK sorts it's own mess out, then we might see sensible solutions like referendums or revocation or accepting the only deal available.

Ash.J.Williams

despite all the good will lately i don;t trust the UK or Boris and i feel a last minute shafting is inevitable for NI

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

The design of Hoshu was not based on the Argus. She was originally designed as a seaplane carrier, and the initial design was independent. A change of strategic thinking on the part of the IJN during her construction meant that the design was adapted to include a landing platform but, if any RN vessel influenced the adaptations, it was not the Argus but the Furious, herself a battlecruiser adapted by the addition of a landing platform.

you might wish to read up on the Sempill Mission when you have time.

The design of the Japanese naval aviation capability wasn't so "Independent".

SeaBreezes

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nAKtUFPXAE0

This is a link to a YouTube channel called 'I am incorrigible'
Each week they do a round up of the Worst callers usually on Brexit. Highly entertaining..

end of the road

SeaBreezes wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nAKtUFPXAE0

This is a link to a YouTube channel called 'I am incorrigible'
Each week they do a round up of the Worst callers usually on Brexit. Highly entertaining..

none of them compare to the call i heard last night on lbc.
chap suggested narrowing the roads at each side of the border between NI and the ROI, to prevent trucks from crossing the border. instead, everything would go by ship from dublin to belfast.
had to have been a windup but who knows. very very funny either way.

26000 Elephants

The chan chan man wrote: »

Is there any possibility at all that they would at this stage have another referendum and ultimately stay in the EU?

Nobody benefits from this nonsense!

Second referendum would be pointless, and It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Leave actually increased their vote. The UK is leaving. It just needs to be decided how much damage they are allowed do on their way out.

It's in the UK's interest to agree a deal to allow an orderly exit. The only way to do that is to agree to some form of regulatory alignment between NI and the Republic. Game theory suggests that players will always act in their self interest. There is no other logical outcome. A crash out is possible, but has huge long term costs for the UK, both economically and politically. A capitulation by the EU would only advantage the UK, the weaker party to the negotiation, no not a contender.

In truth, I have no idea what's going to happen, but I have a 6 month supply of popcorn in the press to see how it unfolds. ;-)

knipex

Aegir wrote: »

The UK needs to leave first, or at least needs to get the interim agreement sorted out. When that is done and the negotiations on what the actual long term relationship will look like, then i believe there can be another referendum.

In either of those two events when \ IF the UK returned it would loose all its existing "special veto's", have to join the Euro and be treated just like any new admission.

It would be an admission of abject failure that I genuinely don't believe that British Politics would be able to handle and the public would crucify them. All the chaos the uncertainty to go back tow here they were with less influence, less "sovereignty" and no queens head on their notes..

I cannot see that happening without riots from the brexit mob..

knipex

knipex wrote: »

In either of those two events when \ IF the UK returned it would loose all its existing "special veto's", have to join the Euro and be treated just like any new admission.

could you provide some evidence to support that statement?

knipex

Aegir wrote: »

could you provide some evidence to support that statement?

Once gone they need to reapply..

Do you really see the rest of the membership, especially the newer ones signing off on exemptions for the UK that no one else, including them, are entitled to ?? Especially after the last 3 years ??

Not a change..

If they rejoin then its will all the right and obligations of a new member.. No half in special deals.. that day is over..

knipex

knipex wrote: »

Once gone they need to reapply..

Do you really see the rest of the membership, especially the newer ones signing off on exemptions for the UK that no one else, including them, are entitled to ?? Especially after the last 3 years ??

Not a change..

If they rejoin then its will all the right and obligations of a new member.. No half in special deals.. that day is over..

so you only have your on assumption on which to base your statement?

every new member is the subject of a new treaty. A treaty which is negotiated on its own merits.

knipex

Aegir wrote: »

so you only have your on assumption on which to base your statement?

every new member is the subject of a new treaty. A treaty which is negotiated on its own merits.

Do you seriously believe that the UK can leave the EU and then just waltz back in on a new deal ?

All new members to the EU adopt the Euro must Join Schengen

There are no exemptions.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2018/09/27/what-if-britain-rejoined-the-eu-breaking-up-may-be-less-hard-than-making-up/

Once the UK is out its out. It can reapply via Article 49 , with strong friends within the EU it may even be possible to expedite the process but it will take years and it wont just be on the old agreement.

https://www.ft.com/content/b58491f8-be8c-11e9-b350-db00d509634e

But why would the EU allow a reluctant member, a member that wants to be half in and half out, rejoin ?? Why after the history of the UK and Europe would it grant special dispensation to a country which isn't fully committed ?


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-article-50-leave-eu-europe-rejoin-join-again-how-sacrifices-we-would-make-a7656571.html

thecretinhop

tis funny that a revote is required whenever the estsblishment dont get what they want.
if remain had won would there have been another vote hmmm..

threeball

thecretinhop wrote: »

tis funny that a revote is required whenever the estsblishment dont get what they want.
if remain had won would there have been another vote hmmm..

??? the establishment?? Are you claiming Recce Mogg, Johnson and his other Eton mates aren't part of the establishment. Seriously... have a think about that.

FunLover18

thecretinhop wrote: »

tis funny that a revote is required whenever the estsblishment dont get what they want.
if remain had won would there have been another vote hmmm..

If new information came to light or if something happened to drastically change the status quo which the UK had voted to retain then I don't see why there wouldn't be calls for a second vote similar to what's happening in Scotland now with increased calls for a second independence referendum after the change in the UK's position.

ohnonotgmail

threeball wrote: »

??? the establishment?? Are you claiming Recce Mogg, Johnson and his other Eton mates aren't part of the establishment. Seriously... have a think about that.

Rees-Mogg, Johnson et al are fearless anti-establishment champions for the working man.

ancapailldorcha

thecretinhop wrote: »

tis funny that a revote is required whenever the estsblishment dont get what they want.
if remain had won would there have been another vote hmmm..

Yes. Nigel Farage said as much.

Macy0161

thecretinhop wrote: »

if remain had won would there have been another vote hmmm..

Really? That's not what self styled man of the people Farage said before the vote...

There could be unstoppable demand for a re-run of the EU referendum if Remain wins by a narrow margin on 23 June, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said.

The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

Joe_ Public

Think Farage was hinting at a second vote in the event of the anticipated win for remain, while Dominic Cummings is on record outlining the case for a second vote in the event of a leave victory.

FrancieBrady

knipex wrote: »

Do you seriously believe that the UK can leave the EU and then just waltz back in on a new deal ?

All new members to the EU adopt the Euro must Join Schengen

There are no exemptions.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2018/09/27/what-if-britain-rejoined-the-eu-breaking-up-may-be-less-hard-than-making-up/

Once the UK is out its out. It can reapply via Article 49 , with strong friends within the EU it may even be possible to expedite the process but it will take years and it wont just be on the old agreement.

https://www.ft.com/content/b58491f8-be8c-11e9-b350-db00d509634e

But why would the EU allow a reluctant member, a member that wants to be half in and half out, rejoin ?? Why after the history of the UK and Europe would it grant special dispensation to a country which isn't fully committed ?


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-article-50-leave-eu-europe-rejoin-join-again-how-sacrifices-we-would-make-a7656571.html

The delusion that they have a 'status' above other countries still persists among some.

3 years it has taken them to figure out there are very few strings the can pull to get a better deal than anyone else that is leaving.
There will be none either if they wish to rejoin. Giving them special vetos and exemptions fed into that feeling to begin with and was a massive mistake, not to be made again with anyone.

knipex

knipex wrote: »

Do you seriously believe that the UK can leave the EU and then just waltz back in on a new deal ?

All new members to the EU adopt the Euro must Join Schengen

There are no exemptions.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2018/09/27/what-if-britain-rejoined-the-eu-breaking-up-may-be-less-hard-than-making-up/

Once the UK is out its out. It can reapply via Article 49 , with strong friends within the EU it may even be possible to expedite the process but it will take years and it wont just be on the old agreement.

https://www.ft.com/content/b58491f8-be8c-11e9-b350-db00d509634e

But why would the EU allow a reluctant member, a member that wants to be half in and half out, rejoin ?? Why after the history of the UK and Europe would it grant special dispensation to a country which isn't fully committed ?


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-article-50-leave-eu-europe-rejoin-join-again-how-sacrifices-we-would-make-a7656571.html

why indeed, but you are speculating.

If the UK opted to apply to open negotiations on rejoining the EU, then it would be just that, a negotiation. None of the opt outs the UK has are in any way unique and the EU regularly bends its own rules when it suits.

It could also nominally aspire to adopt the euro, just as Poland and Sweden has, whilst making no real effort to actually do it. In terms of Schengen, times have changed considerably and it may suit the UK to become a member, although for island nations, I'm not entirely sure what the benefit actually is on that one.

I personally don't have an issue with either of those points and if, down the road, the UK opts to rejoin then it would be because there is enough support to do so, so the extra integration required wouldn't be as much of an issue.

SeaBreezes

Aegir wrote: »

why indeed, but you are speculating.

If the UK opted to apply to open negotiations on rejoining the EU, then it would be just that, a negotiation. None of the opt outs the UK has are in any way unique and the EU regularly bends its own rules when it suits.

It could also nominally aspire to adopt the euro, just as Poland and Sweden has, whilst making no real effort to actually do it. In terms of Schengen, times have changed considerably and it may suit the UK to become a member, although for island nations, I'm not entirely sure what the benefit actually is on that one.

I personally don't have an issue with either of those points and if, down the road, the UK opts to rejoin then it would be because there is enough support to do so, so the extra integration required wouldn't be as much of an issue.

You too are speculating.

Here's my speculation..


I doubt UK will want to rejoin if it leaves no matter how badly the economy tanks. In fact, the worse it gets the better for the current Brexiteers. They control the media and narrative and it will ALWAYS be the EUs fault. And the Brexiteer masterminds are not doing this for UK economic benefit.
I imagine the UK next step will be to try and dismantle the EU as best they can. They will need to to try and get favourable deals with neighbouring countries.

SeaBreezes

SeaBreezes wrote: »

You too are speculating.

Here's my speculation..


I doubt UK will want to rejoin if it leaves no matter how badly the economy tanks. In fact, the worse it gets the better for the current Brexiteers. They control the media and narrative and it will ALWAYS be the EUs fault. And the Brexiteer masterminds are not doing this for UK economic benefit.
I imagine the UK next step will be to try and dismantle the EU as best they can. They will need to to try and get favourable deals with neighbouring countries.

I was speculating, you are talking rubbish.

I am not holding anything out as a "Fact" though, as i presume you are not.