Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

ohnonotgmail

Aegir wrote: »

I was speculating, you are talking rubbish.

I am not holding anything out as a "Fact" though, as i presume you are not.

You are both speculating.

Kidchameleon

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yes. Nigel Farage said as much.

Citation please

ohnonotgmail

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Citation please

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.

The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

SeaBreezes

end of the road wrote: »

none of them compare to the call i heard last night on lbc.
chap suggested narrowing the roads at each side of the border between NI and the ROI, to prevent trucks from crossing the border. instead, everything would go by ship from dublin to belfast.
had to have been a windup but who knows. very very funny either way.

I think my fav was the guy speaking to James o brien who suggested microchipping the Irish :-) I laughed so hard!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7NRNzFcoA2U

end of the road

SeaBreezes wrote: »

I think my fav was the guy speaking to James o brien who suggested microchipping the Irish :-) I laughed so hard!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7NRNzFcoA2U

brilliant, absolute classic clip.
brexiters, the group that just keeps on giving.

SeaBreezes

SeaBreezes wrote: »

I think my fav was the guy speaking to James o brien who suggested microchipping the Irish :-) I laughed so hard!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7NRNzFcoA2U

Would that chip go on the shoulder, per chance?

blanch152

SeaBreezes wrote: »

You too are speculating.

Here's my speculation..


I doubt UK will want to rejoin if it leaves no matter how badly the economy tanks. In fact, the worse it gets the better for the current Brexiteers. They control the media and narrative and it will ALWAYS be the EUs fault. And the Brexiteer masterminds are not doing this for UK economic benefit.
I imagine the UK next step will be to try and dismantle the EU as best they can. They will need to to try and get favourable deals with neighbouring countries.

What neighbouring countries?

Russia? Turkey? Maybe Tajikistan?

There is always Libya or Egypt.

Of course that assumes that those countries will want to do a deal with the UK at the expense of the EU.

end of the road

Aegir wrote: »

Would that chip go on the shoulder, per chance?

nope as there isn't even any chip.

J Mysterio

Aegir wrote: »

Would that chip go on the shoulder, per chance?

Do you think it's ok for Irish people to be concerned or even upset about Brexit and the implications for Ireland?

Do you think we have a right to criticize the UK and it's government?

cryptocurrency

J Mysterio wrote: »

Do you think it's ok for Irish people to be concerned or even upset about Brexit and the implications for Ireland?

Do you think we have a right to criticize the UK and it's government?

The UK has a right to leave the EU. The EU has to respect that right and find a solution to make the vote work. All we hear is the EU saying brexit is the UKs problem and all the things they won't accept.

EU needs its thinking cap on.

cryptocurrency

Aegir wrote: »

Would that chip go on the shoulder, per chance?

JOB sets his calls up, then mutes them to rant his pre written monologue

FrancieBrady

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The UK has a right to leave the EU. The EU has to respect that right and find a solution to make the vote work. All we hear is the EU saying brexit is the UKs problem and all the things they won't accept.

EU needs its thinking cap on.

They did a deal to allow them to leave man. Did you miss the last few years?

They are negotiating again and anything that comes out of that will be sh** on by the chaotic UK parliament.

The EU gave them the rope to save themselves and they are deciding to use it to hang themselves.

FrancieBrady

cryptocurrency wrote: »

JOB sets his calls up, then mutes them to rant his pre written monologue

He must select the audience for Newsnight too and the various talkshows and comment sections on Twitter and across all media outlets where similar lunacy has manifested itself.

cryptocurrency

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They did a deal to allow them to leave man. Did you miss the last few years?

They are negotiating again and anything that comes out of that will be sh** on by the chaotic UK parliament.

The EU gave them the rope to save themselves and they are deciding to use it to hang themselves.

Stopping longing for May's deal, it's dead. It failed too many times.

Need a new plan now, one that will pass and doesn't have the trap.

26000 Elephants

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The UK has a right to leave the EU.

Your making a point that no one has argued.

The EU has to respect that right and find a solution to make the vote work.

Respect? Of course Find a solution? - no they dont! Dont be foolish.

All we hear is the EU saying brexit is the UKs problem and all the things they won't accept.

EU needs its thinking cap on.

Brexit IS the UK's problem.
And the UK was the one who entered the negotiation with "red lines drawn"

Stop moaning about this day one stuff with just 17 days to go, while desperately looking around for someone else to blame for your mess.

fly_agaric

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The EU has to respect that right and find a solution to make the vote work.

It takes "two to tango" and the UK is the party actually leaving here!

For all the Brexit Freedom/"masters and slaves" rhetoric, the UK is quite free to leave tomorrow (ignoring the mayhem that would erupt in their political system if Boris Johnson tried to pull that off!).

The EU spent alot of time, effort + goodwill negotiating a withdrawal agreement with the previous UK government + managed to get the 26 countries to sign off on it. UK parliament due to its collective pigheadedness and selfishness refused to ratify it, or make any other choices about what to do.

The UK then requested all these complete waste-of-time "extensions", bar a miracle another one will be incoming in a couple of weeks (edit - maybe only days away now!). The conservative government used them for playing at internal party politics, the opposition, such as it is, talked alot about stopping the Tory Brexit but did next to nothing also. But it's all down to the EU to "make it work"

FrancieBrady

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Stopping longing for May's deal, it's dead. It failed too many times.

Need a new plan now, one that will pass and doesn't have the trap.

When will the UK get it into their political head that all they are getting is May's deal or small variations away from it.

There are no more unicorns and the upland pastures are waiting.

Donnielighto

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Stopping longing for May's deal, it's dead. It failed too many times.

Need a new plan now, one that will pass and doesn't have the trap.

Sound, same issue as was raised before the ref, reconcile Ireland in EU with Britain out and the GFA in situ. The GFA was raised as an issue and palmed away by the leave group, it's an issue to be solved and has been since the start. Mays deal was the way forward. At this point I see three options.

1 Full Brexit, GFA dismantled.
2 Mays deal even in a different name (boris's suggestions)
3 Brexit cancelled.

Is there a 4th you're suggesting, or are you just saying a compromise won't work.
What's the trap btw?

cryptocurrency

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When will the UK get it into their political head that all they are getting is May's deal or small variations away from it.

There are no more unicorns and the upland pastures are waiting.

That looks further away after today. No CU or SM,no ECJ, No Freedom of Movement.

NI while flexible will not sign up to a backstop or a deal that takes the control outside the NI borders.

Remember all of this WA was to never be reopened and never to be negotiated. Unless the EU folds, its no deal.

FrancieBrady

cryptocurrency wrote: »

That looks further away after today. No CU or SM,no ECJ, No Freedom of Movement.

NI while flexible will not sign up to a backstop or a deal that takes the control outside the NI borders.

Remember all of this WA was to never be reopened and never to be negotiated. Unless the EU folds, its no deal.

It was not to be re-opened unless the UK came with something different. They did, that is being discussed and it isn't looking like it is a workable plan. They will only get it if we in the EU can work it.

FunLover18

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The UK has a right to leave the EU. The EU has to respect that right and find a solution to make the vote work. All we hear is the EU saying brexit is the UKs problem and all the things they won't accept.

EU needs its thinking cap on.

The UK voted on it, they made the decision, it is their problem and they're the ones who have to find a workable solution. The EU have respected the decision by negotiating a deal.

I'm reminded of that old analogy of the man who wants to cancel his gym membership.

end of the road

cryptocurrency wrote: »

JOB sets his calls up, then mutes them to rant his pre written monologue

incorrect, the callers come on air, are unable to argue their point, and james hits them with facts.
once the callers have been given every opportunity to argue, but instead give themselves as much rope as possible, then it is time to move on, as james cannot spend the whole show going around in circles with the same caller.

Junkyard Tom

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Unless the EU folds, its no deal.

You understand that no deal is worse than a bad deal don't you?

Donnielighto

cryptocurrency wrote: »

That looks further away after today. No CU or SM,no ECJ, No Freedom of Movement.

NI while flexible will not sign up to a backstop or a deal that takes the control outside the NI borders.

Remember all of this WA was to never be reopened and never to be negotiated. Unless the EU folds, its no deal.

Fold on what, renegotiating the WA? I'm pretty sure they'd be willing to if the UK had a reasonable and realistic suggestion, big if.

cryptocurrency

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The UK has a right to leave the EU. The EU has to respect that right and find a solution to make the vote work. All we hear is the EU saying brexit is the UKs problem and all the things they won't accept.

EU needs its thinking cap on.

Peregrinus

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The UK has a right to leave the EU. The EU has to respect that right and find a solution to make the vote work. All we hear is the EU saying brexit is the UKs problem and all the things they won't accept.

This is incredibly ironic. Brexit is the UK's problem. Nobody forced them to decide to Brexit, and nobody forbade them making decisions about how to do it. They are in the situation they are in because they freely chose to be in it. And we know the situation is a problem for them - why else do they keep seeking extensions of the Brexit deadline, except that they are not ready to Brexit?

As for the EU "saying all the things they can't accept", I'm hardly the first to point out that the UK position consists entirely of saying all the things they can't accept, but utterly failing to say what they can. They chose their red lines three years ago, but they have still to agree on what kind of Brexit deal they want, and they haven't even begun to consider what they want to do after Brexit.

Hell, it was only forty minutes after posting the above that you posted this:

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No CU or SM,no ECJ, No Freedom of Movement.

Have you no self-awareness at all?

Kidchameleon

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

Yeah that would have been shameful. Pity the remain side are literally doing it now though...

Peregrinus

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Yeah that would have been shameful. Pity the remain side are literally doing it now though...

Why would that have been shameful? And why should the Remain side not do it now?

I think they have a bit of a problem with this in the UK, where referendums are something of a constitutional novelty, and they have no clear idea about how they work and what they can and can't acheive. Somebody told them that holding a referendum on EU membership would settle the question for a generation, and the poor saps believed that because, frankly, they wanted to believe it. But there was never any reason to believe it.

Think about this. The claim that a referendum would settle the question was, to put it mildly, overblown. A referendum is not some Harry Potter-like incantation that can magically produce a particular state of mind in people. A referendum can settle a question decisively, e.g. by demonstrating substantial public consensus in favour of a specified deliverable proposal, but equally it might not have that effect, e.g. if it demonstrates that public opinion is evenly divided or nearly so, or if the question put in the referendum is vague, unspecified or capable of differing interpretations and understandings.

A referendum is just one more tool in the toolbox of democratic ways to make decisions. Properly used, it can help to build a political consensus or to demonstrate that one already exists, but there is no guarantee that it will ever do either. Why would we expect that it will always do this? It's irrational.

And the notion that it's somehow improper to press for further review of a matter that has already been the subject of a referendum is bizarrely - and dangerously - antidemocratic. It's absolutely of the essence of a functioning, healthy democracy, that all questions are up for democratic debate, democratic review, democratic opposition. People who can't accept this are not thinking of referendums as a device for settling a question, but rather as a device for putting a question beyond democratic review; a device for limiting or terminating democracy.

20silkcut

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why would that have been shameful? And why should the Remain side not do it now?

I think they have a bit of a problem with this in the UK, where referendums are something of a constitutional novelty, and they have no clear idea about how they work and what they can and can't acheive. Somebody told them that holding a referendum on EU membership would settle the question for a generation, and the poor saps believed that because, frankly, they wanted to believe it. But there was never any reason to believe it.

Think about this. The claim that a referendum would settle the question was, to put it mildly, overblown. A referendum is not some Harry Potter-like incantation that can magically produce a particular state of mind in people. A referendum can settle a question decisively, e.g. by demonstrating substantial public consensus in favour of a specified deliverable proposal, but equally it might not have that effect, e.g. if it demonstrates that public opinion is evenly divided or nearly so, or if the question put in the referendum is vague, unspecified or capable of differing interpretations and understandings.

A referendum is just one more tool in the toolbox of democratic ways to make decisions. Properly used, it can help to build a political consensus or to demonstrate that one already exists, but there is no guarantee that it will ever do either. Why would we expect that it will always do this? It's irrational.

And the notion that it's somehow improper to press for further review of a matter that has already been the subject of a referendum is bizarrely - and dangerously - antidemocratic. It's absolutely of the essence of a functioning, healthy democracy, that all questions are up for democratic debate, democratic review, democratic opposition. People who can't accept this are not thinking of referendums as a device for settling a question, but rather as a device for putting a question beyond democratic review; a device for limiting or terminating democracy.

You could have a referendum to make everyone a multi millionaire and it would pass.

You could have a referendum to abolish tax and it would pass.

To paraphrase Jeremy clarkson you could have a referendum for every man to have a massive penis and it would pass.

I am sure the “will of the people” would be demonstrated. I am sure more than 17.4 million people would vote for each of those proposals.
Implementing the results of any of these hypothetical referendums is the problem.

The solution is you don’t put stupid questions to the public in a referendum.
It all goes back to one David Cameron.
He could have kicked this question down the road into eternity.

J Mysterio

J Mysterio wrote: »

Do you think it's ok for Irish people to be concerned or even upset about Brexit and the implications for Ireland?

Of course, but some people (if the cap fits and all that) just love to get upset about anything and everything the British do. Those people may have enoughchips on their shoulders already.

J Mysterio wrote: »

Do you think we have a right to criticize the UK and it's government?

Of course.

Here is a tough one for you though, do you think I have a right to criticise Ireland and its government?