Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

briany · 19-10-2019 4:14pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We should be negotiating with the British government, not the parliament.

The British have a parliamentary democracy. The only thing worse than the last 3 and a half years of faff would have been if the British government hashed out a deal with no oversight whatsoever. It would have been Brexit decided without true scrutiny and delivered by the inscrutable.

FrancieBrady · 19-10-2019 4:17pm

briany wrote: »

The British have a parliamentary democracy. The only thing worse than the last 3 and a half years of faff would have been if the British government hashed out a deal with no oversight whatsoever. It would have been Brexit decided without true scrutiny and delivered by the inscrutable.

We'd have saved a lot of torture and the UK would be facing into their second year out of the EU on Theresa May's deal if we didn't have to go through this nonsense process.

swampgas · 19-10-2019 4:26pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We should be negotiating with the British government, not the parliament.

Yes, we have a ridiculous situation where a minority government is still in place despite being at odds with the majority of MPs, simply because it's not feasible to hold an election or a vote of no confidence. It's farcical.

Brexit has shown up huge flaws in the UK political system, and while it would be nice to think that this might trigger some badly needed political reform, the reality is that they will stagger on from crisis to crisis, as badly divided as ever, into the future.

Very frustrating for the EU, for Ireland in particular, for Scotland, and for those MPs who genuinely want to protect the UK from the insanity of a hard Brexit.

Danzy · 19-10-2019 4:28pm

briany wrote: »

This is the first time I'm really hearing this concept of voting for the deal, but then voting against the supporting legislation. My question is if this is a viable option to bring about a no-deal, then why didn't all the no-deal heads attempt it in March? And a following question is why is such a big deal even made over actually voting for the deal if that's only the first hurdle in a potentially uncertain process?

Would there even be a majority for No Deal in the ERG, doesn't look like it, nevermind the Tory party or the Commons.

Danzy · 19-10-2019 4:33pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We'd have saved a lot of torture and the UK would be facing into their second year out of the EU on Theresa May's deal if we didn't have to go through this nonsense process.

Labour should have abstained but party politics and internal dissent would never allow that.

Johnson's deal will go through during the week, it'll have amendments added to it.

The absolute bollox of a job the Conservatives have been in the last 3 years is only topped by Labour and the Lib Dems, both of whom have no platform or position.

Johnson to return post GE wirh strong majority.

He'll get votes for making it happen but his majority will be delivered largely by people looking at the 2 main opposition parties and holding their nose.

Kermit.de.frog · 19-10-2019 4:52pm

briany wrote: »

It would have been Brexit decided without true scrutiny and delivered by the inscrutable.

That's not our problem on the EU side.

We have made a deal with the British government.

Britain should just get on with it and get out now. Then they can resolve the issues among themselves and the rest of us move on.

We want to move on and i'm hoping the EU will now start to draw a line here. Give the UK no extension (except a technical one if required) and say clearly it's this deal or no deal.

It's time to move on.

Boggles · 19-10-2019 5:19pm

What is the likelihood of one of the 27 rejecting an extension?

Professor Moriarty · 19-10-2019 5:32pm

Boggles wrote: »

What is the likelihood of one of the 27 rejecting an extension?

Cui bono? I can't see how that is to anyone's advantage.

Boggles · 19-10-2019 5:50pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Cui bono? I can't see how that is to anyone's advantage.

The deal would have to be passed. It would be "illegal" otherwise.

FrancieBrady · 19-10-2019 5:51pm

Boggles wrote: »

What is the likelihood of one of the 27 rejecting an extension?

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1185592504093159426

Odhinn · 19-10-2019 5:53pm

Boris Johnson told the Commons: "It has been a very important debate, an exceptional moment for our country, an exceptional moment for our Parliament.
"Alas, the opportunity to have a meaningful vote has effectively been passed up because the meaningful vote has been voided of meaning.
"But I wish the House to know that I am not daunted or dismayed by this particular result and I think it probably became likely once it became obvious that the amendment from my right honourable friend, the member for West Dorset was going to remain on the order paper.
"I continue in the very strong belief that the best thing for the UK, and for the whole of Europe is for us to leave with this new deal on October 31, and to anticipate the questions that are coming from the benches opposite, I will not negotiate a delay with the EU."

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1019/1084379-brexit-super-saturday/

Isn't there a law passed that he must ask for a delay?

briany · 19-10-2019 5:56pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

That's not our problem on the EU side.

We have made a deal with the British government.

Britain should just get on with it and get out now. Then they can resolve the issues among themselves and the rest of us move on.

We want to move on and i'm hoping the EU will now start to draw a line here. Give the UK no extension (except a technical one if required) and say clearly it's this deal or no deal.

It's time to move on.

I think we should be looking at this on a longer term scale. Right now, the UK is throwing a serious tantrum and tantrums can be really annoying, but the EU as a whole must not get so p*ssed off as to cut the chord because if that's how the EU deals with this sort of thing, then the EU may not last. These types of tantrums could come along again, and in my opinion it should really be up to the leaving country to cut the chord. Let the UK have no-one else to blame on this.

Anyway, the idea of leaving the deal entirely up to a 'crack' team of negotiators was always a deeply flawed one. As I said, it would have been a referendum where much information went entirely unscrutinised, and its result having been delivered by those inscrutable. It would have been one of the greatest political heists in modern British history to take the country out of the EU without any oversight. The UK parliament has been badly deadlocked, yes, but still the only institution that's brought a little more to the table than bluster (although they have also brought much, much bluster themselves).

FrancieBrady · 19-10-2019 5:56pm

Odhinn wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1019/1084379-brexit-super-saturday/

Isn't there a law passed that he must ask for a delay?

Yes...but he says he won't 'negotiate' it, meaning he will ask and then say no more as to length and what they need it for.

SeaBreezes · 19-10-2019 5:57pm

To me, the timing of Guys tweet is deliberate. The EU want the UK to take the deal and go...

https://mobile.twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1185080326592315393

Boggles · 19-10-2019 5:59pm

Odhinn wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1019/1084379-brexit-super-saturday/

Isn't there a law passed that he must ask for a delay?

He has to ask, but that doesn't mean it will be granted. All 27 have to agree AFAIK.

The UK can't leave on a No Deal, so the MPs will be forced to pass the deal would be my reading of it.

Boggles · 19-10-2019 6:00pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1185592504093159426

I have been told by someone that Boris showed someone a text.

Beth is fatigued I reckon.

FrancieBrady · 19-10-2019 6:01pm

Boggles wrote: »

He has to ask, but that doesn't mean it will be granted. All 27 have to agree AFAIK.

The UK can't leave on a No Deal, so the MPs will be forced to pass the deal would be my reading of it.

It can leave with No Deal, if it can't get it's **** together...and it looks quite clear that it can't get it's **** together.

Boggles · 19-10-2019 6:06pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It can leave with No Deal

Yeah actually you are right. Parliament would have to agree to it though.

That wouldn't happen, so they would be forced to accept the deal.

Kermit.de.frog · 19-10-2019 6:25pm

Please Macron bring it all to an end.

Veto an extension and that deal goes through quick fast next week.

Boggles · 19-10-2019 6:51pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Please Macron bring it all to an end.

Veto an extension and that deal goes through quick fast next week.

Leo should do it.

Donald Trump · 19-10-2019 7:01pm

Boggles wrote: »

Leo should do it.

If it wasn't such a serious situation it would almost be funny if one of the poorer EU countries like Latvia or Bulgaria vetoed it and forced the UK into a corner - taking back control would mean the old colonial notions of great empire being reduced to its knees by a "poor" Eastern European nation!

briany · 19-10-2019 9:12pm

Why assume there'd even be a deal if the EU denied an extension? I remember how dead set Johnson was on no-deal just a few weeks ago. There'd be nothing to stop him just not tabling the deal and crashing out.

As tedious as the whole process has been, it would ultimately be irresponsible of the EU to flat refuse an extension.

Kermit.de.frog · 19-10-2019 9:28pm

The benefit is it puts pressure on remainer MPs who can't stomach a no deal.

Someone needs to force the issue and concentrate minds.

ThunbergsAreGo · 19-10-2019 9:30pm

What incentive is there for the EU to ever give them a better deal than this?

First Up · 19-10-2019 9:34pm

ThunbergsAreGo wrote:

What incentive is there for the EU to ever give them a better deal than this?

None whatever. The only remaining negotiations are within what's left of the British political system.

FrancieBrady · 19-10-2019 9:39pm

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

What incentive is there for the EU to ever give them a better deal than this?

Boris went back for a deal and ended up with a worse one.

Donnielighto · 19-10-2019 9:44pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Boris went back for a deal and ended up with a worse one.

Worse for us too though.

FrancieBrady · 19-10-2019 9:50pm

Donnielighto wrote: »

Worse for us too though.

I don't think so.
The decision on a hard border has to be made by the people living on the island.

That is how it should be.

AllGunsBlazing · 19-10-2019 9:52pm

I daresay the EU would be quite happy to see Britain out the exit door by almost any means at this stage. Nothing else is getting done while drags on. Even remainers have become a thorn in their side after today.

ThunbergsAreGo · 19-10-2019 9:56pm

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

I daresay the EU would be quite happy to see Britain out the exit door by almost any means at this stage. Nothing else is getting done while drags on. Even remainers have become a thorn in their side after today.

Yup, no idea what an extension achieves

Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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