Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Danzy

DUP talking about backing an amendment to stay in the Customs Union.

From Brexit to the furthest wing of Remain in a week.

McMurphy

Danzy wrote: »

DUP talking about backing an amendment to stay in the Customs Union.

From Brexit to the furthest wing of Remain in a week.

You can't spell Duped without DUP.

ancapailldorcha

Y'know, I think the DUP are finally nearing the point where pretty much everyone in Northern Ireland who wasn't an assisduous reader of the Daily Sash was in 2016.

Danzy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Y'know, I think the DUP are finally nearing the point where pretty much everyone in Northern Ireland who wasn't an assisduous reader of the Daily Sash was in 2016.

Some Irish lads went over to England and bombed the Tory party.
Dup's Brexit turnaround is the new Brighton.

ThunbergsAreGo

Hector Savage wrote: »

Another Brexit delay - in other words , delays will just keep coming and Brexit will never happen.
Most people will be delighted, but remember one day it will be something YOU vote for that will be overturned by the political elite.

I would have voted remain if I lived in the UK, but democracy must be respected and it's sad to see this utter farce.

Pretty much my own thoughts on the matter

First Up

ThunbergsAreGo wrote:

Pretty much my own thoughts on the matter

So elected parliamentarians are now "the political elite"?What alternative system would you prefer?

The Brexit mess is of the UK's own making. It is the consequence of asking the people if they wanted to leave something without asking them where they wanted to be instead.

It was a stupid question, it got a stupid answer and the result is this entirely predictable mess.

Tea Shock

Hector Savage wrote: »

Another Brexit delay - in other words , delays will just keep coming and Brexit will never happen.
Most people will be delighted, but remember one day it will be something YOU vote for that will be overturned by the political elite.

I would have voted remain if I lived in the UK, but democracy must be respected and it's sad to see this utter farce.

So you talk about democracy while acknowledging that carrying out said democracy is against most people's wishes?

Do you need to work on your understanding of democracy?

26000 Elephants

Tea Shock wrote: »

So you talk about democracy while acknowledging that carrying out said democracy is against most people's wishes?

Do you need to work on your understanding of democracy?

At best its symptomatic of broken thinking, at worst its deliberately misleading - it's obvious to anyone who the 'elites' in this drama are.

ThunbergsAreGo

First Up wrote: »

So elected parliamentarians are now "the political elite"?What alternative system would you prefer?

The Brexit mess is of the UK's own making. It is the consequence of asking the people if they wanted to leave something without asking them where they wanted to be instead.

It was a stupid question, it got a stupid answer and the result is this entirely predictable mess.

And that's the whole problem I have with answers like this. It was a "stupid" answer, it might well be but it was the one the people gave.

If you have a referendum you should respect the result

Eric Cartman

I see corbyn is trying to tack on a soft second referendum amendment at the end. Will these people ever just get over it, more delays, more stalling about.


Like could you imagine the uproar if somebody tried to do that to repeal after the legislation was announced , or the SSM referendum , or any other numbers of referendums where that side of the aisle got what they wanted.

ancapailldorcha

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I see corbyn is trying to tack on a soft second referendum amendment at the end. Will these people ever just get over it, more delays, more stalling about.


Like could you imagine the uproar if somebody tried to do that to repeal after the legislation was announced , or the SSM referendum , or any other numbers of referendums where that side of the aisle got what they wanted.

Except people knew exactly what they were voting for because Ireland does referenda right.

Do you really want to see a United Ireland with all the added public sector expense that this will entail? That's what the deal will do in the long run.

Professor Moriarty

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

And that's the whole problem I have with answers like this. It was a "stupid" answer, it might well be but it was the one the people gave.

If you have a referendum you should respect the result

Absolutely. Respect the 2016 referendum by doing a Brexit deal with the EU and then ask people if they are happy with that deal. You're dead right.

First Up

ThunbergsAreGo wrote:

If you have a referendum you should respect the result

Sure; now just tell us what result you'd like.

ThunbergsAreGo

First Up wrote: »

Sure; now just tell us what result you'd like.

It's been had, whatever result I like doesn't matter

First Up

ThunbergsAreGo wrote:

It's been had, whatever result I like doesn't matter

So who should care about the result?

Eric Cartman

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Except people knew exactly what they were voting for because Ireland does referenda right.

Do you really want to see a United Ireland with all the added public sector expense that this will entail? That's what the deal will do in the long run.

they really didnt though, different debate for a different thread but the 8th amendment referendum is very apt here, be promosed one thing and the reality is another.

My heart wants a united Ireland and my head knows we can never afford it, the day before O die they can ratify it hah.

No deal / this deal whatever, I just want them out on october 31st with no more delays, no second referedums, no anything else. The remain side has consistently faught democracy tooth and nail to stop the will of the people heing executed here.

ancapailldorcha

Eric Cartman wrote: »

they really didnt though, different debate for a different thread but the 8th amendment referendum is very apt here, be promosed one thing and the reality is another.

My heart wants a united Ireland and my head knows we can never afford it, the day before O die they can ratify it hah.

No deal / this deal whatever, I just want them out on october 31st with no more delays, no second referedums, no anything else. The remain side has consistently faught democracy tooth and nail to stop the will of the people heing executed here.

Really? How so? My understanding was that it would be permitted for the first 12 weeks of a pregnancy.

If it was the will of the people, they'd be consulted so that argument is bollix to say nothing of the polls showing otherwise.

I never thought I'd see you of all people advocating something which will cause a surge in public sector and welfare spending.

ohnonotgmail

Eric Cartman wrote: »

they really didnt though, different debate for a different thread but the 8th amendment referendum is very apt here, be promosed one thing and the reality is another.

My heart wants a united Ireland and my head knows we can never afford it, the day before O die they can ratify it hah.

No deal / this deal whatever, I just want them out on october 31st with no more delays, no second referedums, no anything else. The remain side has consistently faught democracy tooth and nail to stop the will of the people heing executed here.

they have fought democracy tooth and nail via parliament. How very undemocratic of them .

ThunbergsAreGo

First Up wrote: »

So who should care about the result?

The Parliament, and the people of the United Kingdom.

You negotiate, get a deal and leave.

We have had years of stalling and delays because the people didn't deliver the result parliament wanted

ohnonotgmail

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

The Parliament, and the people of the United Kingdom.

You negotiate, get a deal and leave.

We have had years of stalling and delays because the people didn't deliver the result parliament wanted

so you think the british government should be able to do a deal with the EU without parliament having any oversite?

First Up

ThunbergsAreGo wrote:

You negotiate, get a deal and leave.

So you want the parliament to agree to the negotiated agreement?

Eric Cartman

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they have fought democracy tooth and nail via parliament. How very undemocratic of them .

How many other UK referendums have ever had a second referedum at the end of deloberations ?

ancapailldorcha

The idea that signing the deal brings this sh*tshow to an end is absurd. There was a great analogy the other day on the BBC about it being akin to a pregnant woman wanting to have her child as soon as possible so she can get back to her books.

ThunbergsAreGo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so you think the british government should be able to do a deal with the EU without parliament having any oversite?

It would be great if parliament even let people know what is acceptable to them (even though it's likely unattainable). It's like a toddler just shouting no at this stage.

Danzy

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Absolutely. Respect the 2016 referendum by doing a Brexit deal with the EU and then ask people if they are happy with that deal. You're dead right.

Why would the EU agree to that?

Why would the EU want a 2nd referendum of any kind?

You think that Dublin, Brussels, Berlin and Paris wouldn't like to see Johnson return with a majority and get this through.

Just on the financial sector alone, the planning, changes,realignment have been very significant.

They are also bedded in 18 months at this stage.

A No Deal Brexit is not an option, no one wants it.

The headache for the EU now is this deal being shot down and this dragging on for years more.

Mad_maxx

Eric Cartman wrote: »

they really didnt though, different debate for a different thread but the 8th amendment referendum is very apt here, be promosed one thing and the reality is another.

My heart wants a united Ireland and my head knows we can never afford it, the day before O die they can ratify it hah.

No deal / this deal whatever, I just want them out on october 31st with no more delays, no second referedums, no anything else. The remain side has consistently faught democracy tooth and nail to stop the will of the people heing executed here.

It's irrelevant whether or not we can "afford a united Ireland", it's coming regardless

ancapailldorcha

Danzy wrote: »

Why would the EU agree to that?

Why would the EU want a 2nd referendum of any kind?

You think that Dublin, Brussels, Berlin and Paris wouldn't like to see Johnson return with a majority and get this through.

The EU doesn't want Brexit. It's prepping for it but it doesn't want it.

If Johnson returns with a majority then it's GG. If there's a People's Vote and Leave wins again then same thing. We now know about the interference and dark money behind the Leave campaigns as well as the spectacular incompetence of the Conservative party. One upside is that they'll die as a party after this one way or the other.

Danzy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The EU doesn't want Brexit. It's prepping for it but it doesn't want it.

If Johnson returns with a majority then it's GG. If there's a People's Vote and Leave wins again then same thing. We now know about the interference and dark money behind the Leave campaigns as well as the spectacular incompetence of the Conservative party. One upside is that they'll die as a party after this one way or the other.

In most significant industries, the prepping is long over, long bedded in.

This is a big story here, a big story in Britain.

In Europe, it hardly makes the newspaper, it's done as far as they are concerned there. Maybe not in all political leaders but society and business have largely moved on, enough that going back to the way it way would be onerous.

The Tories will be damaged but they will gain strongly in Working Class England.

One of the most bizarre aspects of this debacle has been the snobbery and contempt shown by so many in Labour to their working class heartlands.

Labour may get squuzed losing lot of working-class voters to Tories and many middle class to the Lib Dems.

Enough to have them lose seats, rather than lead Govt.

All will be hurt long term.

LuckyLloyd

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The idea that signing the deal brings this sh*tshow to an end is absurd. There was a great analogy the other day on the BBC about it being akin to a pregnant woman wanting to have her child as soon as possible so she can get back to her books.

It would be the end of the beginning. Remain would be dead, which I think is essential at this point for the UK to move forward. The Trade discussions will involve a lot of shock and recrimination that will fully expose over time why Brexit was such a terrible idea but we have to allow that process to play out in full. I think we’ll also see Scottish independence, etc during this period but these are things that must now happen. The genie cannot be put back in the bottle.

Ireland will be unaffected by all of this with the front stop in place, so let them have it. There is no realistic argument for delaying the next stage of Brexit anymore imo. All politicians / people on the side of Remain were nowhere near forthright or aggressive enough and even now have no stomach for mass civil disobedience. Given you have no appetite for potentially effective protest you must allow it to proceed. Limbo is not a solution or permanent state.

ancapailldorcha

Working class England despises the Conservatives. They might be Tory leaning but they remember what Thatcher did to them all too well.

The UK is a major service provider. The problem there is that said services can very easily be moved to the EU which seems very likely. Car companies will be destined to move over as well and biotech and other cutting edge firms will follow suit. Few want to be stuck in little England.