Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

downcow

Danzy wrote: »

The Sdlp convince someone?

All jokes aside, Boris didn't need convincing to let the North go, nor did his own party or British society have an issue with it.

Read again what I said. I didn’t say anyone convinced boris or British. I said they convince key eu people.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Not over the moon. Boris has an amazing ability to say one thing (anything) one day and the opposite the next. So yes a clear betrayal.
DUP have done a very poor job so far. They sat back and allowed ROI/SDLP/SF/etc to convince EU of the terrible trouble there would be if there was a hard border and the awful derogation that would be to nationalist identity, and said nothing of the issues and derogation of identity that Irish sea border would bring, and trusted a few politicians to not give in, including Boris of all people.

I do think this has still a long way to run

So can we have the same opinion of Unionists playing up Loyalist unrest?

BTW, the objection to a 'hard border' was multi pronged, and it did offer the prospect of an upswing in violence, whether you think people were lying or not.

The EU and Dublin focused mainly on the obstacle to economic health it posed.

There's an especially worthwhile article by O'Toole in this morning's Irish Times, one of his most insightful articles yet. The bit about "political piety" regarding the idea of a "UK" and politicians only now catching up with the popular reality which does not share that attachment to the idea of a UK is particularly insightful:


Fintan O’Toole: Northern Ireland is being detached from the UK. Get ready for it

.... The idea of Great Britain itself is under severe strain as Scotland seems destined to move towards another referendum on independence. The notion of British greatness has been weaponised politically – being great makes it unnatural and intolerable for Britain to be just another member of the European Union.

But most dramatically, that tenuous “& Northern Ireland” has never been so uncomfortable an adjunct to Britishness.... it is clear that what Arlene Foster called a “blood-red line” has been crossed. Boris Johnson’s breath-taking reversal of his previous position on the idea of a Northern Ireland-only backstop makes October 10th, 2019 – the day of his meeting with Leo Varadkar in Wirral – a watershed in British and Irish history.

On that day, Johnson decided, in effect, that Northern Ireland can be detached from the British train and placed on a whole other track. The implications of this for the future of both islands are profound.... But now he has actually agreed to a vastly more intrusive regulatory and customs border in the Irish Sea. If May’s deal undermined the sovereignty of the UK as a single entity, Johnson’s blew it apart.

Mental separation
This is a bell that cannot be unrung. Whether or not the arrangements for a unique form of Brexit for Northern Ireland actually come into being (indeed, whether or not Brexit actually happens) a huge act of mental separation has occurred.... Johnson was not wrong – the “UK as a state” cannot survive official endorsement of a border between Larne and Stranraer. Functioning, stable sovereign states simply don’t do that sort of thing. In November 2018, in a rousing speech to the DUP’s annual conference, Johnson said that if this were allowed to happen, “we are witnessing the birth of a new country called UK-NI”.... That something so basic could be so unclear tells us that we are experiencing a strange mix of the momentous and the thoughtless. A fundamental change in the nature of the UK (and thus of Ireland) is being unleashed, not through a process of careful deliberation, but in a spirit of pure reckless opportunism. Whatever gets Brexit through the night is alright. The consequences are for later.

The significance of this shift is hard to grasp because it is not part of the story most of us in Ireland recognise. Just five years ago, in any discussion of the future of the UK as an entity, the factors in play were Scottish nationalism, Irish nationalism and, to a lesser extent, Welsh nationalism. What was not being discussed was the idea that English nationalism might be the real destructive force. Yet its presence was not secret. In 2012, four years before the Brexit referendum, the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) published a very powerful report, based on detailed survey data, that warned that “an emerging English political identity may over time come to challenge the institutions and practices of the UK more profoundly than anything happening in the so-called Celtic fringe”. The 2011 UK census showed that, even given the option of ticking more than one box (English and British for example), a majority of people in England chose to identify as English only. Just 29 per cent of English people claimed to feel any sense of British national identity. And what is even more striking is that, in the years before the referendum, survey data were showing a very strong correlation of English feelings about what IPPR called “the two unions”, the UK and the EU – people who identified strongly as English rather than British were also anti-EU.... All the evidence both before and after the 2016 referendum was that the voters in England who identify as British are, by and large, Remainers. People who support one union (the UK) are very likely to also support the other (the EU).

Conversely, Leave voters, whatever their political representatives say, tend to care very little about the preservation of the UK as an entity. For them, Brexitness is far more important than Britishness: every poll has shown that Leave voters and Tory party members find the breakup of the UK an acceptable price to be paid for Brexit.

This was confirmed on Monday, in a new poll and focus-group study of English participants released by the Tory donor Lord Ashcroft. The threat that a border in the Irish Sea might pose to Northern Ireland’s place in the UK is not a big deal for most of them: just over a quarter of English respondents, and just a third of Conservative Leave voters, agree that it would be “unacceptable” for Northern Ireland to “have different laws and regulations from the rest of the UK after Brexit”.... When asked whether Brexit makes Irish unification more likely, the most popular response in the poll was “don’t know”. When asked directly whether Northern Ireland should remain part of the UK, just 35 per cent said yes, 13 per cent said no and a remarkable 43 per cent said: “I don’t have a view.” And when those in this latter category were asked how they would feel personally if Northern Ireland were to leave, 59 per cent said “I wouldn’t mind either way” and a further 8 per cent chose “happy to see them go”.

What has occluded this obvious reality is political piety. English nationalism is odd in that in has no real political voice. It remains taboo for any mainstream English politician – let alone a prime minister – to say that the people of England “don’t mind either way” about that complicated and mysterious place called Northern Ireland.

But sooner or later politics catches up with popular feeling. And this is what has now happened. The Brexiteers have now caught up with their base and made explicit what has always been implicit in the English nationalist project: Northern Ireland is neither here nor there...

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

There's an especially worthwhile article by O'Toole in this morning's Irish Times, one of his most insightful articles yet. The bit about "political piety" regarding the idea of a "UK" and politicians only now catching up with the popular reality which does not share that attachment to the idea of a UK is particularly insightful:


Fintan O’Toole: Northern Ireland is being detached from the UK. Get ready for it

May crossed the 'blood red line' too though.

downcow

Deleted User wrote: »

There's an especially worthwhile article by O'Toole in this morning's Irish Times, one of his most insightful articles yet. The bit about "political piety" regarding the idea of a "UK" and politicians only now catching up with the popular reality which does not share that attachment to the idea of a UK is particularly insightful:


Fintan O’Toole: Northern Ireland is being detached from the UK. Get ready for it

I don't disagree with all of this but, as so often the case, it is written by outsiders who just don't get it re UK. None of the stats given here are either a surprise or a concern. As has been displayed the UK will not stand in the way of anyone who wants to leave - Its a family and if anyone one member feels they want to try life elsewhere they will get the familys blessing. This has already been afforded to NI and Scotland but both have chosen to stay (in the meantime).

If you are outside UK and are not British, just watch over the next fortnight how most of us who are british come together around remebramce. Switch on some of the programmes eg the Albert Hall event on BBC on sat night before rem sunday. Its really hard to discribe but Finton OToole just doesnt get it. Its like me trying to understand the GAA family and why young people continue to be drawn to an amateur parochial sport with so many other bigger sporting opportunites with global appeal available to them. But i just have to accept that i don't understand it and not patronise GAA people with stats on falling attendances etc. I'm sure GAA is safe in the medium term and Im also sure the UK is safe in the medium term. Who knows what the long term holds for either

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don't disagree with all of this but, as so often the case, it is written by outsiders who just don't get it re UK. None of the stats given here are either a surprise or a concern. As has been displayed the UK will not stand in the way of anyone who wants to leave - Its a family and if anyone one member feels they want to try life elsewhere they will get the familys blessing. This has already been afforded to NI and Scotland but both have chosen to stay (in the meantime).

If you are outside UK and are not British, just watch over the next fortnight how most of us who are british come together around remebramce. Switch on some of the programmes eg the Albert Hall event on BBC on sat night before rem sunday. Its really hard to discribe but Finton OToole just doesnt get it. Its like me trying to understand the GAA family and why young people continue to be drawn to an amateur parochial sport with so many other bigger sporting opportunites with global appeal available to them. But i just have to accept that i don't understand it and not patronise GAA people with stats on falling attendances etc. I'm sure GAA is safe in the medium term and Im also sure the UK is safe in the medium term. Who knows what the long term holds for either

They aren't 'remembering' the sacrifice you guys made on behalf of the British project when they threw Unionism under the bus.

First Up

downcow wrote:

If you are outside UK and are not British, just watch over the next fortnight how most of us who are british come together around remebramce. Switch on some of the programmes eg the Albert Hall event on BBC on sat night before rem sunday.

Much of Europe suffered at least as much as the UK in WW1 and WW2 - some a lot more.

Europe has moved on; the UK is still looking back. You seem proud of that - the EU is more interested in the present and future.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

I don't disagree with all of this but, as so often the case, it is written by outsiders who just don't get it re UK. None of the stats given here are either a surprise or a concern. As has been displayed the UK will not stand in the way of anyone who wants to leave - Its a family and if anyone one member feels they want to try life elsewhere they will get the familys blessing. This has already been afforded to NI and Scotland but both have chosen to stay (in the meantime).
r

The sentiment coming from England during the Scottish referendum was that they did not want to see them go. That is not the case with NI.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

The sentiment coming from England during the Scottish referendum was that they did not want to see them go. That is not the case with NI.

They lied to the Scottish to keep them in.
Boris lied to NI to pretend he would keep them in...then he threw them under the bus, as May tried to do before him.

davedanon

First Up wrote: »

Much of Europe suffered at least as much as the UK in WW1 and WW2 - some a lot more.

Europe has moved on; the UK is still looking back. You seem proud of that - the EU is more interested in the present and future.

Seeing as both world wars were fought in mainland Europe, I think it's safe to say that the UK suffered virtually nothing by comparison (and ourselves much, much less so, with our coyly-termed 'emergency').

First Up

davedanon wrote:

Seeing as both world wars were fought in mainland Europe, I think it's safe to say that the UK suffered virtually nothing by comparison (and ourselves much, much less so, with our coyly-termed 'emergency').

The UK suffered plenty of damage and civilian casualties in WW2 and there was huge military loss of life in both wars.

I don't underestimate that and I have a grandfather and other ancestors in military graves in France and Belgium (and on the Menin Gate in Ypres).

But it is extremely stupid to think you are venerating previous generations by punishing the future ones.

Donald Trump

downcow wrote: »

As has been displayed the UK will not stand in the way of anyone who wants to leave - Its a family and if anyone one member feels they want to try life elsewhere they will get the familys blessing.

Ah yes, I remember learning about the long fiesta of independence that happened in Ireland between 1919 and 1921. Apparently the Irish fellas said "Hey UK, we want to leave" and the British replied "ah, fair play to yiz lads. That's A1. we'll send over a few lads there to help run your independence parties and events for yiz. You'll recognise them by their curious mismatch of black and khaki uniforms"

davedanon

First Up wrote: »

The UK suffered plenty of damage and civilian casualties in WW2 and there was huge military loss of life in both wars.

I don't underestimate that and I have a grandfather and other ancestors in military graves in France and Belgium (and on the Menin Gate in Ypres).

But it is extremely stupid to think you are venerating previous generations by punishing the future ones.

Para 1: Yes, but as I stated, VIRTUALLY NEGLIGIBLE compared to the actual ground war taking place in mainland Europe.

para 2: So what? My grandfather's brother is buried in a military cemetery in northern France.

para 3: Doesn't really make any sense at all, to be honest.

FrancieBrady

I think Tommy Gorman fancies Arlene.

He just gave her an interview on RTE's The Week in Politics that was bizarre in how soft and reverential it was.

careless sherpa

He is a poor man's Conor Cruise.

First Up

davedanon wrote:

Para 1: Yes, but as I stated, VIRTUALLY NEGLIGIBLE compared to the actual ground war taking place in mainland Europe.

They are still entitled to commemorate. I have already said other countries suffered more.

davedanon wrote:

para 2: So what? My grandfather's brother is buried in a military cemetery in northern France.

I am pointing out that it is possible to commemorate family members lost in World Wars and still be pro EU.

davedanon wrote:

para 3: Doesn't really make any sense at all, to be honest.

Tell that to downcow.

downcow

First Up wrote: »

Much of Europe suffered at least as much as the UK in WW1 and WW2 - some a lot more.

Europe has moved on; the UK is still looking back. You seem proud of that - the EU is more interested in the present and future.

Ah now, dont twist what i was saying with you bit of a quote. I was trying to help people who are not or don't feel part of UK. I give an example of something that will display are 'family' over the next couple of weeks

First Up

downcow wrote:

Ah now, dont twist what i was saying with you bit of a quote. I was trying to help people who are not or don't feel part of UK. I give an example of something that will display are 'family' over the next couple of weeks

I twisted nothing. Your "helping" people understand the UK simply illustrated the UK's problem.

downcow

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah yes, I remember learning about the long fiesta of independence that happened in Ireland between 1919 and 1921. Apparently the Irish fellas said "Hey UK, we want to leave" and the British replied "ah, fair play to yiz lads. That's A1. we'll send over a few lads there to help run your independence parties and events for yiz. You'll recognise them by their curious mismatch of black and khaki uniforms"

The UK didn't even exist in the period you are quoting

downcow

downcow wrote: »

The UK didn't even exist in the period you are quoting

The UK of Britain and Ireland certainly did

branie2

The UK now have another extension, to the 31st of January next year

MadYaker

Will it ever end?

D3V!L

MadYaker wrote: »

Will it ever end?

Now we'll have to listen to this sh!t all the way through to the new year.

MadYaker

Hopefully we get an election before Christmas here

branie2

branie2 wrote: »

The UK now have another extension, to the 31st of January next year

I love your optimism

McMurphy

branie2 wrote: »

The UK now have another extension, to the 31st of January next year

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJXvn8jAcHw

Eric Cartman

branie2 wrote: »

The UK now have another extension, to the 31st of January next year

this is an absolute disgrace. The remain campaigners are just treading on democracy now.

Professor Moriarty

Eric Cartman wrote: »

this is an absolute disgrace. The remain campaigners are just treading on democracy now.

Proroguing parliament is even more disgraceful.

Eric Cartman

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Proroguing parliament is even more disgraceful.

not even more, but yeah definitely wasn't a good move. But lets be honest here, everyone calling for a delay, a second vote, amendments etc.. at this point is trying to find some way to just cancel the whole affair. There is no respect for the original vote at all.

There should definitely be a procedure in parliament to suspend the voting rights of those being intentionally obtuse to delay or undo brexit and not work towards getting it done in a timely manor.

FrancieBrady

Eric Cartman wrote: »

not even more, but yeah definitely wasn't a good move. But lets be honest here, everyone calling for a delay, a second vote, amendments etc.. at this point is trying to find some way to just cancel the whole affair. There is no respect for the original vote at all.

There should definitely be a procedure in parliament to suspend the voting rights of those being intentionally obtuse to delay or undo brexit and not work towards getting it done in a timely manor.

The mistake everyone made in the UK was believing that the 'people were sovereign'.
They aren't and never were. That is why we are where we are - limbo.