Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Tony EH

MadYaker wrote: »

And all for what? To save the Tory party from losing votes to the brexit party. Madness.

But that's the problem with these privileged Tory types. Their fuck ups don't really have any impact on them, so they don't care when their bull-in-a-China-shop antics go pear shaped.

Their wealth and status insulates them, while the average Joe gets the shaft every time.

The current Toff-in-Chief is no better.

davedanon

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

London will continue to be the global capital of offshoring, and finance, and EU focussed industries like automanufaturers and aerospace will quietly withdraw to mainland Europe. That means the middle and working classes will suffer while the Tories continue to represent their deep-pocketed patrons and slash public services and welfare.

It's possible, not likely, but possible, that the UK, or maybe just England&Wales, could be a lethal and toxic binary society composed exclusively of a wealthy tech cohort and a malignant underclass, with no middle-class at all left.

FrancieBrady

Boggles wrote: »

I'm more talking about a leader who can unite the party and is credible enough to formulate a strategy going forward.

Boris like Bertie are likable rogues, charismatic, shít talkers.

The last 3 labour leaders weren't, they were the opposite if anything.

May wasn't and the party suffered big time because of her.

Johnson hasn't united his party, he has strangled dissent which will break out again before long, I guarantee it. The WA is the warm up act here.

davedanon

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Might it be that the tories promise jobs when labour have been promising them handouts and that theres still some desire to work among the working class...

Cliched nonsense post of the week.

Eric Cartman

davedanon wrote: »

Cliched nonsense post of the week.

I said promise of, not delivery. Realistically I don't think any party can truly fix the problems that manufacturing decline created in northern england, but decades of marginally increased handouts hasn't improved their lot at all, maybe theyre voting for the promise of jobs and holding out against hope that it delivers in some way.

KildareP

pjohnson wrote: »

We are significantly smarter.

Banal meaningless slogans didn't get Casey elected but worked for Johnson.

We really aren't...

Look at the polarisation around topics such as social welfare, travellers, direct provision or the housing crisis. Casey went from bottom to clear 2nd practically overnight on his comments on travellers alone. In elections he started making bizarre comments around 5G and the NBP that would make anyone a bit worried.

That's all still very much bubbling away under the surface, it is not going away.

It's just happening the other way here - rather than the EU and foreigners being made the bogeyman and told they should resented, as in the UK, over here many people themselves are being told they are the bogeymen for holding a particular point of view or airing a particular point of concern and should - essentially - resent themselves. That's only going to go one way and it's not a good one...

A charismatic Casey type who can deliver snappy oneliners and gets into one of the main parties could turn things on its head here. And I fear we're due our version very soon too. We aren't uniquely immune from political shifts.

But I think that's a whole other topic in itself

KWAG2019

KildareP wrote: »

We really aren't...

Look at the polarisation around topics such as social welfare, travellers, direct provision or the housing crisis. Casey went from bottom to clear 2nd practically overnight on his comments on travellers alone.

That's all still very much bubbling away under the surface, it is not going away.

It's just happening the other way here - rather than the EU and foreigners being made the bogeyman and told they should resented, as in the UK, over here many people themselves are being told they are the bogeymen for holding a particular point of view or airing a particular point of concern and should - essentially - resent themselves. That's only going to go one way and it's not a good one...

A charismatic Casey type who can deliver snappy oneliners and gets into one of the main parties could turn things on its head here. And I fear we're due our version very soon too. We aren't uniquely immune from political shifts.

But I think that's a whole other topic in itself

Again the same failing of the anti Trump and anti Johnson movements: you don’t get that the problem is the ideological tyranny that tries to dictate to people what they must think. The many NGOs and social justice campaigning groups need to have a hard look at themselves and their pronouncements before they tip the balance against them.

Boggles

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Johnson hasn't united his party, he has strangled dissent which will break out again before long, I guarantee it. The WA is the warm up act here.

Ah he has and a lot of the voters too.

He will fúck it up no doubt, but he did the business when it most matters.

davedanon

Boggles wrote: »

I'm more talking about a leader who can unite the party and is credible enough to formulate a strategy going forward.

Boris like Bertie are likable rogues, charismatic, shít talkers.

The last 3 labour leaders weren't, they were the opposite if anything.

May wasn't and the party suffered big time because of her.

I can't quite believe I'm saying this, but Bertie is light years ahead of Boris, as a politician, a statesman, hell, even a man. Bertie had a major hand in bringing about peace in the north, and he was an excellent negotiator in industrial disputes. Boris isn't good at anything, except lying, bull****ting, and sticking his cock into women who should have known better.

davedanon

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Again the same failing of the anti Trump and anti Johnson movements: you don’t get that the problem is the ideological tyranny that tries to dictate to people what they must think. The many NGOs and social justice campaigning groups need to have a hard look at themselves and their pronouncements before they tip the balance against them.

There are no anti-Trump and anti-Johnson 'movements'. There are decent people who revile demagogues, racists, liars and crooks, however.

davedanon

Boggles wrote: »

Ah he has and a lot of the voters too.

He will fúck it up no doubt, but he did the business when it most matters.

https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-brexit-dystopia-bequeathed-by-this.html

Read this.

Boggles

davedanon wrote: »

Boris isn't good at anything, except lying, bull****ting, and sticking his cock into women who should have known better.

Can't argue with that, but look where he is Prime Minister with a huge majority.

The more he fúcks up the more they seem to like him.

I blame 20 odd years of reality tv.

FrancieBrady

Boggles wrote: »

Ah he has and a lot of the voters too.

He will fúck it up no doubt, but he did the business when it most matters.

A wet week ago the Tories where in turmoil. Johnson got them on the same page at about the only time it was possible and dare I say easy, when they were fighting for their jobs.

He'll keep the lid on the deep divisions for a while.

KildareP

davedanon wrote: »

I can't quite believe I'm saying this, but Bertie is light years ahead of Boris, as a politician, a statesman, hell, even a man. Bertie had a major hand in bringing about peace in the north, and he was an excellent negotiator in industrial disputes. Boris isn't good at anything, except lying, bull****ting, and sticking his cock into women who should have known better.

He was one of many involved in the peace process, he by no means single handedly pulled it off. Blair, Clinton, et al were here for a reason too. Far greater politicians of influence.
His answer to industrial disputes was to just throw blank cheques at the unions to make them go away.

He holds a large portion of the blame for the absolute financial cluster this country found itself in several years ago. You can bet he didn't suffer.

The difference was he was cute about it. He kept a lid on his private life - he didn't even have a bank account! Like with Haughey we are easily fooled by the lovable rogue types too...

Boggles

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A wet week ago the Tories where in turmoil. Johnson got them on the same page at about the only time it was possible and dare I say easy, when they were fighting for their jobs.

He'll keep the lid on the deep divisions for a while.

I imagine Boris has made far more promises than he has cabinet positions.

Loafing Oaf

KildareP wrote: »

A charismatic Casey type who can deliver snappy oneliners and gets into one of the main parties could turn things on its head here. And I fear we're due our version very soon too. We aren't uniquely immune from political shifts.

We seem to be kind of though. Okay there is always churn among left-wing parties, but FF and FG have monopolised the conservative and centrist vote since nearly the foundation of the state. Irish voters have never shown much interest in anything to the right of FG in meaningful elections.

Seathrun66

KildareP wrote: »

We really aren't...

Look at the polarisation around topics such as social welfare, travellers, direct provision or the housing crisis. Casey went from bottom to clear 2nd practically overnight on his comments on travellers alone. In elections he started making bizarre comments around 5G and the NBP that would make anyone a bit worried.

That's all still very much bubbling away under the surface, it is not going away.

It's just happening the other way here - rather than the EU and foreigners being made the bogeyman and told they should resented, as in the UK, over here many people themselves are being told they are the bogeymen for holding a particular point of view or airing a particular point of concern and should - essentially - resent themselves. That's only going to go one way and it's not a good one...

A charismatic Casey type who can deliver snappy oneliners and gets into one of the main parties could turn things on its head here. And I fear we're due our version very soon too. We aren't uniquely immune from political shifts.

But I think that's a whole other topic in itself

But we are. We've the highest number of University graduates in the EU and excellent secondary and trade education. We're also nowhere near as gullible or deferential to posh politicians and royalty as the English and Welsh (who carried both Brexit and this Tory win).

Casey had his day in the sun but was still way behind Higgins at the poll. The latter recorded the highest percentage victory in a Presidential vote. Casey then failed abjectly in the European elections. The two reactionary rabble rousers in the recent by-elections similarly got nowhere.

There will always be a dissatisfied element prepared to be pulled along by a snake oil salesman on the hustings. But make no mistake, we are way off the levels of gullibility of the UK and US. And getting electorally sharper every decade.

Eric Cartman

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

We seem to be kind of though. Okay there is always churn among left-wing parties, but FF and FG have monopolised the conservative and centrist vote since nearly the foundation of the state. Irish voters have never shown much interest in anything to the right of FG in meaningful elections.

I think its that FF and FG are just too big and a naturally pesimistic irish centre/centre right electorate doesn't believe a new party could win or enact meaningful change. I think if FG started actually becoming the right wing bogeyman that the alphabet parties paint them as that they'd do well and get actual decent support among the electorate.

Seathrun66

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think its that FF and FG are just too big and a naturally pesimistic irish centre/centre right electorate doesn't believe a new party could win or enact meaningful change. I think if FG started actually becoming the right wing bogeyman that the alphabet parties paint them as that they'd do well and get actual decent support among the electorate.

Not borne out by the recent by-elections in Wexford and Dublin. Verona Murphy slagging off immigrants and Emer Higgins insulting Travellers both got soundly beaten.

Harvey Weinstein

pjohnson wrote: »

We are significantly smarter.

Smarter? I dunno, 200+ Billion in debt and counting. Disastrous health system, disastrous housing crisis, 10k+ homeless, 100k on hospital waiting lists, Almost totally reliant on multinationals. One of the most expensive countries in Europe. The list goes on and on.
Possibly the most vulnerable country in the Western World to another recession (we're completely f*cked if this happens)

I wouldn't say smart myself.

KildareP

davedanon wrote: »

There are no anti-Trump and anti-Johnson 'movements'. There are decent people who revile demagogues, racists, liars and crooks, however.

You don't fix a problem by simply shouting the people who have a different opinion to you (whether right or wrong) as bigots, racists, fascists, etc.

Just as the UK won't fix their woes by blaming the EU for everything that has gone wrong.

Eric Cartman

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Not borne out by the recent by-elections in Wexford and Dublin. Verona Murphy slagging off immigrants and Emer Higgins insulting Travellers both got soundly beaten.

theres a difference between having a tougher immigration and crime policy and using derogatory terms to describe people on the internet.

Seathrun66

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

Smarter? I dunno, 200+ Billion in debt and counting. Disastrous health system, disastrous housing crisis, 10k+ homeless, 100k on hospital waiting lists, Almost totally reliant on multinationals. One of the most expensive countries in Europe. The list goes on and on.
Possibly the most vulnerable country in the Western World to another recession (we're completely f*cked if this happens)

I wouldn't say smart myself.

Could it be that we're smarter than the politicians we elect. Our responsibility of course but it may just be that both the electorate and candidates are becoming cleverer.

Seathrun66

Eric Cartman wrote: »

theres a difference between having a tougher immigration and crime policy and using derogatory terms to describe people on the internet.

You mentioned 'right-wing bogeymen'. Isn't that exactly what they do?

And are you back-peddling in the face of clear evidence that such behaviour has failed in recent by-elections and a presidential election?

FrancieBrady

Boggles wrote: »

I imagine Boris has made far more promises than he has cabinet positions.

Grab your popcorn and watch the Tories disintegrate into infighting again when the trade negotiations start and local interests start coming into play.

davedanon

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

Smarter? I dunno, 200+ Billion in debt and counting. Disastrous health system, disastrous housing crisis, 10k+ homeless, 100k on hospital waiting lists, Almost totally reliant on multinationals. One of the most expensive countries in Europe. The list goes on and on.
Possibly the most vulnerable country in the Western World to another recession (we're completely f*cked if this happens)

I wouldn't say smart myself.

I want to ask this again. Why the F*CK do you call yourself that name? Do you think it's clever? Triggering the libtards kind of thing?

Harvey Weinstein

davedanon wrote: »

I want to ask this again. Why the F*CK do you call yourself that name? Do you think it's clever? Triggering the libtards kind of thing?

Well you seem triggered anyway.

Junkyard Tom

davedanon wrote: »

https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-brexit-dystopia-bequeathed-by-this.html

Read this.

Good read:

the civil service will be in meltdown after years of having been asked to deliver an undeliverable policy. Many EU nationals will have left, along with many of those UK nationals with the skills and mobility to do so. There will be (at very best) a stagnant economy, with a declining fiscal position and major labour shortages, especially in the NHS and social care.

[L]eavers ... will have divided into three groups. One will vociferously insist that it would have been fine if only their ... ‘true Brexit’ had been followed. The second will be denying that they had ever supported Brexit at all. The third group will probably be supporting a new, more or less openly fascist, party.

Yep, a Disney-style ending to Brexit is not going to happen.

Loafing Oaf

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think its that FF and FG are just too big and a naturally pesimistic irish centre/centre right electorate doesn't believe a new party could win or enact meaningful change. I think if FG started actually becoming the right wing bogeyman that the alphabet parties paint them as that they'd do well and get actual decent support among the electorate.

They already monopolise whatever 'conservative' vote there is on the 'best of a bad lot' principle. If they went down the road you suggest they would gain a small additional number of such voters and lost vast swathes of liberal and left-leaning ones.

KildareP

Seathrun66 wrote: »

But we are. We've the highest number of University graduates in the EU and excellent secondary and trade education. We're also nowhere near as gullible or deferential to posh politicians and royalty as the English and Welsh (who carried both Brexit and this Tory win).

Casey had his day in the sun but was still way behind Higgins at the poll. The latter recorded the highest percentage victory in a Presidential vote. Casey then failed abjectly in the European elections. The two reactionary rabble rousers in the recent by-elections similarly got nowhere.

There will always be a dissatisfied element prepared to be pulled along by a snake oil salesman on the hustings. But make no mistake, we are way off the levels of gullibility of the UK and US. And getting electorally sharper every decade.

Ok going off topic so I'll try wrap up but we have serious, serious issues around housing, taxation, access to state benefits, and coming down the line, pensions. These are going to hit hard in years to come, especially if we head into a downturn and the multi-nationals pull out.

A graduate on a modest income today struggles to affordably rent, has minimal hope of owning property, must progress against a steep tax curve once you hit the relatively low ceiling, no free GP care, must pay for all prescriptions, glasses, dental work, is expected to take out private healthcare cover or be loaded and will shortly be expected to pay into a pension scheme.

How do you resolve that in a way that is socially just?
All else being equal, increasing the tax rates is the only way - but hits those same graduates even further.

All it takes is someone like Casey - but lovable rogue quick fire personality - to latch onto a section of society made the blame for our woes and we could end up with a sudden populist surge like we have seen elsewhere.

At the moment the inverse is happening - anyone who questions why the disparity between those who pay for everything and those who pay nothing are immediately branded bigoted, racist, fascist, capitalist, etc. by certain segments.

I do worry about it and while I hope we don't see it happen on this island, I just can't help but feel we are treading the same paths as we've seen across the US, UK and continental Europe.

Pretending it isn't happening or won't happen here and so not needing to do anything, IMO, is dangerous.