Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Tony EH

20silkcut wrote: »

Britain is a hell of a lot bigger and better a country today than it was in 1973 after 46 years of EU membership.

If you said that to your average Brit today they would not agree or accept that.

It is one of the great contradictions of our time.

A people unhappy with their lot despite a vast improvement and development of their country.

It is why there is so little sympathy for their “plight” outside of Britain.
And we here in Ireland definitely don’t grasp or understand their dissatisfaction.

40 years of media lies is obviously one reason and glorification of their imperial history in their education system has to be another.

Certainly, Britain has had many gains from both membership of the EEC and the EU and in fact, they had one of the best deals of any member state. They had a situation whereby they had one foot in and one foot out. They didn't even sign up to the common currency. So, to hear go on about the EU as if it has had some sort of dictatorial stranglehold over Britain is just mind boggling.

It's also, frankly, astonishing listening to former Labour voters saying that they held their nose and voted for Johnson and then in the same breath bemoan that nothing's been done for them in years and how austerity measures have devastated their communities.

It's like they don't know who's been in power for the last decade.

Tony EH

theological wrote: »

If there wasn't such opposition to Brexit within parliament the UK could have withdrew from the European Union nearly a year ago and there would be different political conversations.

The problem is they can't because they have no plan for how things are going to look after the plug is pulled and they also wanted to still avail of the perks while no being a member of the club. It's been the Conservatives who have dawdled over Brexit because Cameron's idiotic decision to just throw things into wind produced a result nobody in the party expected.

Brexit is like a toff who left an exclusive establishment in Mayfair in a strop, but still wants the free drinks at the bar.

Professor Moriarty

Tony EH wrote: »

Certainly, Britain has had many gains from both membership of the EEC and the EU and in fact, they had one of the best deals of any member state. They had a situation whereby they had one foot in and one foot out. They didn't even sign up to the common currency. So, to hear go on about the EU as if it has had some sort of dictatorial stranglehold over Britain is just mind boggling.

It's also, frankly, astonishing listening to former Labour voters saying that they held their nose and voted for Johnson and then in the same breath bemoan that nothing's been done for them in years and how austerity measures have devastated their communities.

It's like they don't know who's been in power for the last decade.

The Telegraph, The Sun, The Express, The Mail.

I hope the people saying Johnson only got 47% meaning the British don't want Brexit will be consistent and say that Scotland doesn't want independence and the SNP has no mandate asking for a referendum.

Kidchameleon

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm living in Ireland. I haven't lost anything.

Then why are you complaining?

20silkcut

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I hope the people saying Johnson only got 47% meaning the British don't want Brexit will be consistent and say that Scotland doesn't want independence and the SNP has no mandate asking for a referendum.

I agree and another factor to take into account is the poor performance in this election of the likes of Dominic grieve and Anna soubry and the Tory rebels etc. Something that has been rather overlooked. Everyone is focusing on corbyns poor showing. There can be no doubt that Brexit won. Remain is just not popular in England.
Remain lost in 2016 and lost again in 2019.
It’s definitely over.
It’s not pretty to type such a post but it is a fact.

theological

Tony EH wrote: »

The problem is they can't because they have no plan for how things are going to look after the plug is pulled and they also wanted to still avail of the perks while no being a member of the club. It's been the Conservatives who have dawdled over Brexit because Cameron's idiotic decision to just throw things into wind produced a result nobody in the party expected.

Brexit is like a toff who left an exclusive establishment in Mayfair in a strop, but still wants the free drinks at the bar.

The argument that they have no plan is false. The withdrawal bill is sat ready for approval. The next step is negotiating an FTA with the EU. The UK has already made arrangements to be an independent member of the WTO as negotiations will take place with other countries.

Immigration and other topics will be legislative matters for
parliament. The idea that the government have no preparations done over the last three years is also more than likely false.

On another topic I mentioned that Boris should try repeal the Fixed Term Parliament Act a few posts ago. Looks like that will be in the Queen's Speech.

Tony EH

WAB is not a plan. It's article of faith that requires a lot of belief that outside factors will magically come together and everything will be hunky dory.

A plan is a series of events that you in control of, to be taken in steps to achieve a desired outcome. WAB essentially says that "We'll leave, and then we'll talk to so and so, and then talk to so and so, and then talk to so and so..."

There's a lot in the WAB that Britain has little actual control over. It may be the only game in town no matter who's laying it down, be it May or Johnson. But an actual plan it ain't.

Johnson and his crowd seem to be all about just getting Brexit over the line and seeing what happens.

WAB's biggest standout, for me, is in it's transition period allowance, which basically states that the whole of next year will be set aside for "transitioning", with a further two years to be added. This thread about Britain "pissing off" and "getting on" with Brexit will still be going well into 2021 probably. Because it's going to take years to get anywhere.

Brexit hasn't even started yet.

Padre_Pio

theological wrote: »

The argument that they have no plan is false. The withdrawal bill is sat ready for approval. The next step is negotiating an FTA with the EU. The UK has already made arrangements to be an independent member of the WTO as negotiations will take place with other countries.

Political commentators who have seen the Withdrawal Bill have said it's vague to the point of being useless. There's a lot of "We will do X". But no indication of when or how X will be done.

Snickers Man

theological wrote: »

There's a lot in that post. I'm going to stick to what you've said about 2019 rather than the 19th century. I'm not convinced by the conflation between both time periods.

Well, you did bring up the concept of One Nation Conservatism, and even though he never actually used the phrase, Disraeli is the one whose policies were so described by future Conservatives. So it is highly relevant to compare them.

theological wrote: »

You say lots about the educated middle class but it is the focus on the educated middle class in the Labour party that lost them this election. Snobbery loses elections.

Er, yeah. That was kinda my point. Many Labour voters of today are descendants of earlier generations who would still be "working at t'mill" if a) there hadn't been universal and largely free education and b) if there were any mills left in Britain.

So what do they do? If they still feel loyalty to some semblance of equality they stay in the middle, are reluctant to aspire to any great wealth and are contemptuous of the unashamed go-getters who want to become wealthy. The latter, after all, think that all benefits of their efforts should accrue to them and them alone and decry any criticism of negative effects of what they do (eg environmental damage, greater social stratification, increased poverty at the lower levels of society etc) as bleeding heart, tree hugging, Fear Projects.

But Labour's current supporters, by walking the walk, as it were, inevitably have to talk the talk as well. By declining the opportunity of greater riches that might accrue to them if they demanded a more de-regulated, capital friendly, low-tax, low-services society, they justify themselves by talking the talk of the finger-wagging, disapproving, morally superior prig. Which is just another description of the politically correct.

What's the alternative?

theological wrote: »

It's a good thing to be able to transcend boundaries like what Johnson did on Tuesday.

So that's your alternative? The "transcendent" Boris Johnson!

But is he really?

I don't think he has transcended boundaries at all; he has just redrawn them. The Brexit argument in Britain, especially as it appeals to the poorer voters, is fundamentally an emotional one, not an economic one.

People in the old industrial heartlands may feel they have been left behind and that Labour is no longer "listening to them" so instead they have listened to the "patriots" of the Brexit movement who tell them that Britain is being dragged down by foreigners, who leech off Britain's riches, either by "coming over here and stealing our jobs", or worse "sponging off our welfare state, which is only supposed to be for us", or more subtly "taking all our money and sending it to Brussels".

But what are Boris and his cohorts, including the likes of Gove, Rees-Mogg etc truly going to offer the "ignored" masses of former Labour supporters?

Are they really going to shower them with the largesse of greater benefits, jobs, services etc or are they more likely to feed their emotional needs at the expense of their material ones? My guess is that their reward will be xenophobia (we're free of those oily Europeans) militarism (Britain will gang up with the USA in dumping NATO and embarking on their own self-interested international projects, wherever a regime needs to be changed or a terrorist to be confronted) and ultimately racism (who let all these black and brown people into our green and pleasant land?).

That, after all was the One Nation conservatism of Disraeli, the GREAT imperialist who saw the advantages of imperialism and military adventurism as keys to the sort of National Greatness in whose reflected glory all subjects could bask, to the extent that they might forget about the material shortcomings of their lives.

You might think that One Nation Conservatives means the "nice" wing of the Tory Party, the likes of Ken Clarke, Chris Patten even John Major. The leftie firebrand Ken Livingstone once said of Major that he was glad he had become Tory leader and prime minister because, "when the chips came down, he was the one who would be least nasty to the poor".

The thing is, that is the very wing of the Tory party that has been crushed in this election. They were all opposed to Brexit, Clarke even had the whip withdrawn in the last parliament and Major urged people not to vote Conservative. Their vision has been wholly rejected.

No. The One Nation Conservatism Boris is likely to follow is that of Disraeli. And his wasn't a one nation view at all. We can see the results of that experiment. And it's not pretty.

theological wrote: »

It's more interesting on the Conservative side to ask this question. What comes to mind is how is Johnson going to hold on to working class votes in the North and Midlands. .....If he manages to work on their priorities they might keep voting Conservative while confining Labour support to metropolitan sorts.

He may well try and curry favour with sections of the old working class by appealing to their national pride and diverting some business their way. But he is only interested in them as allies. L'ennemi de mon ennemi est mon ami. In much the same way as the Unionist party of Guards officers and landed gentry in Northern Ireland were interested in "Good protestant lads and lassies". The wealth wasn't shared around, it was concentrated in the hands of the deserving few who shared an arbitrary identity with their masters. The rest were excluded, with ultimately disastrous results.

Johnson hasn't transcended boundaries. He's just redrawn them.

theological wrote: »

Your post is a catalogue of why you don't like the Conservatives

Well I don't like Brexit. I regret that it is happening from an Irish point of view but have always accepted that it is Britain's choice to make. At a personal level, though, I lived in England for 10 years and still have many friends and former colleagues there, the vast majority of whom, I can tell from their social media activity are hostile to Brexit. Opposition ranges from regret to outright fury.

In fact I have only One British Facebook friend who is pro Brexit. Of the other 50 or so, all who have expressed a preference are against it. Most are from lower middle class backgrounds, state school educated, university graduates. That's my milieu. They were/are decent, humorous non racist, non chauvinistic people, instinctively repelled by the ugly opportunism of the likes of Johnson and Farage and naturally inclined to that swathe of opinion spanning the centre of the Labour Party to the left wing of the Tories. For the most part they are not ideologues.

These people have taken a kicking at the moment, not financially but emotionally. And the ones leering over them in victory are pretty feckin' ugly.

ancapailldorcha

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Political commentators who have seen the Withdrawal Bill have said it's vague to the point of being useless. There's a lot of "We will do X". But no indication of when or how X will be done.

Exactly. All it does is settle the divorce bill, Northern Ireland and start the FTA negotiations. That's it.

Spanish Eyes

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Exactly. All it does is settle the divorce bill, Northern Ireland and start the FTA negotiations. That's it.

But, but, once the Bill is passed by Parliament it will be hailed as "We Got It Done", and no one will be any the wiser during the Transition/Planning period, which could go on for many years, but Brexit will have been "delivered" Optics matter, not reality:P

rossie1977

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Then why are you complaining?

UK like the US are Irelands biggest trade partners. If their economies fall it has massive knock on effect on ours

UK economy is already shrinking and that's before the years of austerity that will ensue under Johnsons government https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pmi-services-manufacturing-december-preliminary-093130515.html

Kidchameleon

rossie1977 wrote: »

UK like the US are Irelands biggest trade partners. If their economies fall it has massive knock on effect on ours

UK economy is already shrinking and that's before the years of austerity that will ensue under Johnsons government https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pmi-services-manufacturing-december-preliminary-093130515.html

Yeah the EU's economy is doing just great...

theological

Snickers Man wrote: »

Well, you did bring up the concept of One Nation Conservatism, and even though he never actually used the phrase, Disraeli is the one whose policies were so described by future Conservatives. So it is highly relevant to compare them.

I did in the modern sense of a Conservative party that is the servant of the people from Surrey Heath to Sedgefield. I'm interested in what lies before them after this decisive victory.

Snickers Man wrote: »

But Labour's current supporters, by walking the walk, as it were, inevitably have to talk the talk as well. By declining the opportunity of greater riches that might accrue to them if they demanded a more de-regulated, capital friendly, low-tax, low-services society, they justify themselves by talking the talk of the finger-wagging, disapproving, morally superior prig. Which is just another description of the politically correct.

What's the alternative?

The alternative is to reject the hard left and move to the centre like Blair did. Recognise that business and capitalism aren't the enemy of the state but a useful servant. After all that's how th State can sustainably invest in public services.

If Labour sticks with Corbynism it will be thrashed again in the next election. They need to learn the lessons from this election instead of arrogantly insisting that the people were wrong for sending them packing. That's the finger wagging, disapproving, morally superior ideology that lost them this election.

You know I sometimes wonder what would have happened if someone credible like Andy Burnham was the leader of Labour.

Snickers Man wrote: »

But what are Boris and his cohorts, including the likes of Gove, Rees-Mogg etc truly going to offer the "ignored" masses of former Labour supporters?

This will be the question of the next parliament and an open one. If he continues as he has started in his attitude to the new constituencies he has exploring infrastructure spending for the North and a legal mechanism for ensuring NHS funding he'll do well.

At least he's actually trying to expand his support base. If Labour continue insisting that the people were somehow wrong not to accept their far left policies in this election those people they alienated in this one won't return to them either. More may go even if that's possible.

Snickers Man wrote: »

Well I don't like Brexit. I regret that it is happening from an Irish point of view but have always accepted that it is Britain's choice to make. At a personal level, though, I lived in England for 10 years and still have many friends and former colleagues there, the vast majority of whom, I can tell from their social media activity are hostile to Brexit. Opposition ranges from regret to outright fury.

I find it interesting how many people on this forum declare their point of view on Brexit as a specifically Irish point of view. You are just an Irish person who happens to have an opinion. As am I. I happen to respect democracy. I lost in terms of the 2016 referendum (I voted remain but was pretty Eurosceptic to begin with). I'm not particularly interested in patronising people who decided differently to me I'm 2016. What's more important is taking the best steps forward given the result.

I'm thankful that I'm not obligated to share your opinion by virtue of my nationality. We're not a hive mind but many corners of this site would suggest otherwise.

As for your friends on social media, their fury possibly contributed to this result.

Snickers Man wrote: »

In fact I have only One British Facebook friend who is pro Brexit. Of the other 50 or so, all who have expressed a preference are against it. Most are from lower middle class backgrounds, state school educated, university graduates. That's my milieu. They were/are decent, humorous non racist, non chauvinistic people, instinctively repelled by the ugly opportunism of the likes of Johnson and Farage and naturally inclined to that swathe of opinion spanning the centre of the Labour Party to the left wing of the Tories. For the most part they are not ideologues.

All I read into this is that you and your friends are pretty out of touch with most British people.

Snickers Man wrote: »

These people have taken a kicking at the moment, not financially but emotionally. And the ones leering over them in victory are pretty feckin' ugly.

These people lost an election. That's life. They need to get over it. The snobbish idea that you have that everyone who voted Tory in this election is "ugly" is pretty childish.

Are you suggesting that these people became nasty all of a sudden the second that they realised that they couldn't bring themselves to vote for Jeremy Corbyn despite their families having voted for them for generations? Labour should be ashamed that they weren't able to give these people a genuine choice in this election. Labour should be ashamed of trying to patronise the British public on Brexit. That was going to backfire.

They deserve better leadership and Johnson has a much better chance of providing that than Corbyn.

declanflynn

theological wrote: »

I did in the modern sense of a Conservative party that is the servant of the people from Surrey Heath to Sedgefield. I'm interested in what lies before them after this decisive victory.



The alternative is to reject the hard left and move to the centre like Blair did. Recognise that business and capitalism aren't the enemy of the state but a useful servant. After all that's how th State can sustainably invest in public services.

If Labour sticks with Corbynism it will be thrashed again in the next election. They need to learn the lessons from this election instead of arrogantly insisting that the people were wrong for sending them packing. That's the finger wagging, disapproving, morally superior ideology that lost them this election.

You know I sometimes wonder what would have happened if someone credible like Andy Burnham was the leader of



This will be the question of the next parliament and an open one. If he continues as he has started in his attitude to the new constituencies he has exploring infrastructure spending for the North and a legal mechanism for ensuring NHS funding he'll do well.

At least he's actually trying to expand his support base. If Labour continue insisting that the people were somehow wrong not to accept their far left policies in this election those people they alienated in this one won't return to them either. More may go even if that's possible.



I find it interesting how many people on this forum declare their point of view on Brexit as a specifically Irish point of view. You are just an Irish person who happens to have an opinion. As am I. I happen to respect democracy. I lost in terms of the 2016 referendum (I voted remain but was pretty Eurosceptic to begin with). I'm not particularly interested in patronising people who decided differently to me I'm 2016. What's more important is taking the best steps forward given the result.

I'm thankful that I'm not obligated to share your opinion by virtue of my nationality. We're not a hive mind but many corners of this site would suggest otherwise.

As for your friends on social media, their fury possibly contributed to this result.



All I read into this is that you and your friends are pretty out of touch with most British people.



These people lost an election. That's life. They need to get over it. The snobbish idea that you have that everyone who voted Tory in this election is "ugly" is pretty childish.

Are you suggesting that these people became nasty all of a sudden the second that they realised that they couldn't bring themselves to vote for Jeremy Corbyn despite their families having voted for them for generations? Labour should be ashamed that they weren't able to give these people a genuine choice in this election. Labour should be ashamed of trying to patronise the British public on Brexit. That was going to backfire.

They deserve better leadership and Johnson has a much better chance of providing that than Corbyn.

A lot of Brits are as thick as pig**** and racist

Professor Moriarty

declanflynn wrote: »

A lot of Brits are as thick as pig**** and racist

The ironing is delicious.

Kidchameleon

UK economy doing great...

"FTSE adds £41bn on second day of surge as ‘Boris bounce’ continues"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/12/16/markets-live-blog-ftse-100-pound-sterling-business/

I'd imagine with all the lefties protests against Brexit now dead in the water and uncertainty a thing of the past, this "Boris bounce" will continue. Great news for democracy.

First Up

Kidchameleon wrote:

I'd imagine with all the lefties protests against Brexit now dead in the water and uncertainty a thing of the past, this "Boris bounce" will continue. Great news for democracy.

I wonder what word beginning with B will replace Bounce when the history of this is eventually written.

biko

declanflynn wrote: »

A lot of Brits are as thick as pig**** and racist

And that's just the left, add on the right and it gets really bad..

davedanon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

UK economy doing great...

"FTSE adds £41bn on second day of surge as ‘Boris bounce’ continues"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/12/16/markets-live-blog-ftse-100-pound-sterling-business/

I'd imagine with all the lefties protests against Brexit now dead in the water and uncertainty a thing of the past, this "Boris bounce" will continue. Great news for democracy.

The stock market isn't the same as the economy.

Del.Monte

declanflynn wrote: »

A lot of Brits are as thick as pig**** and racist

And the Irish are the most intelligent people on the planet and never a racist thought passes through their heads. Give over with the sweeping generalisations ffs. :rolleyes:

Kidchameleon

davedanon wrote: »

The stock market isn't the same as the economy.

Nobody said it was. FYI, the stock market is a reflection of the economy.

Padre_Pio

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Nobody said it was. FYI, the stock market is a reflection of the economy.

And how much has all this depressed since the Brexit vote?

All that hoo-ha abouty the pound rebounding and it's still crap against the euro and dollar compared to three years ago.

What's the point of forming all these trade deals when you can't buy anything.
Our company has taking advantage of UK retailers for the last 3 years, as their prices are set by their US office. It's fantastic!

davedanon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Nobody said it was. FYI, the stock market is a reflection of the economy.

FYI, it's not. Stock markets react to global trends and have no particular connection to national economies. But hey, don't let actual reality interfere with your continuing fantasy of BRITAIN UNLEASHING ITS POTENTIAL AND THE DYING EU.

davedanon

Interestingly, Donald Trump shares your views on markets and economies.

declanflynn

Del.Monte wrote: »

And the Irish are the most intelligent people on the planet and never a racist thought passes through their heads. Give over with the sweeping generalisations ffs. :rolleyes:

Ffs open your eyes

The Telegraph is breaking all norms and reporting FTSE paper gains in currency terms instead of points and percentages. Well I never. What a coincidence. I wonder why they would ever do that.

davedanon

Deleted User wrote: »

The Telegraph is breaking all norms and reporting FTSE paper gains in currency terms instead of points and percentages. Well I never. What a coincidence. I wonder why they would ever do that.

Yes, funny that.

mikhail

Del.Monte wrote: »

And the Irish are the most intelligent people on the planet and never a racist thought passes through their heads. Give over with the sweeping generalisations ffs. :rolleyes:

I guess he did say "A lot of Brits". In his defence, a lot of humans are thick as **** and racist.