Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

declanflynn

20silkcut wrote: »

Usually when countries obtain freedom it is after a valiant armed struggle against an oppressive power.
Brexit is not exactly that. More a slow bike bicycle race exercise of democracy.
Britain in the eyes of the world is not a persecuted country. It is a wealthy country, as we are all reminded ,the fifth largest economy in the world.
Nobody outside Britain can see exactly what the problem is. No one can sympathise with their perceived grievances with the EU. Considering there is actually real blood being spilled in countries like Ukraine to achieve a closer alliance with the EU.

I wouldn't bother explaining anything to the Brits, just wish them good luck and encourage them to get on with Brexit.
Its gonna bring so many advantages to us, a United Ireland, trade with outward looking countries, Dublin to become financial services capital of Europe, Belfast to become a major shipbuilder again and rid of the English forever, who would of thought the tories would do all of this for us.

droidman123

Tony EH wrote: »

Britain is largely seen as a mess because of this farce. However the rest of the world are view Britain right now, it's very far from "respect".

I cant speak for the whole of europe,but i do know that in france and germany they are a laughing stock,"respect" is way off the mark

declanflynn

declanflynn wrote: »

I wouldn't bother explaining anything to the Brits, just wish them good luck and encourage them to get on with Brexit.
Its gonna bring so many advantages to us, a United Ireland, trade with outward looking countries, Dublin to become financial services capital of Europe, Belfast to become a major shipbuilder again and rid of the English forever, who would of thought the tories would do all of this for us.

And unicorns roaming freely in Pheonix Park ....

declanflynn

Aegir wrote: »

And unicorns roaming freely in Pheonix Park ....

Its gonna be great for britian as well, if it all goes to plan you wont be trading with ur neighbours which are just a few kms away, you will be doing business with countries 000's of kms away, that has to be a benifit especially in a time which we every country needs to burn more fuel on transportation

KildareP

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Oh and by the way Verhoffstdat alone is a reason for the EU to disband, a complete snake

But we should take the lead of the honest-to-goodness Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Cummings, et all in following the UK out of the EU, yeah right! :rolleyes:

theological

20silkcut wrote: »

Usually when countries obtain freedom it is after a valiant armed struggle against an oppressive power.
Brexit is not exactly that. More a slow bike bicycle race exercise of democracy.
Britain in the eyes of the world is not a persecuted country. It is a wealthy country, as we are all reminded ,the fifth largest economy in the world.
Nobody outside Britain can see exactly what the problem is. No one can sympathise with their perceived grievances with the EU. Considering there is actually real blood being spilled in countries like Ukraine to achieve a closer alliance with the EU.

Goodness the language in your post is quite strong.

You're right Brexit isn't a war. It's a country saying they don't want to be a part of the EU so they can have more control over certain areas of policy. The British public decided it was better to leave the European Union than to pool sovereignty with 27 other countries.

That's their legitimate choice which they have made.

KildareP

Kidchameleon wrote: »

My observation is that they have gained more respect globally. They have declared to the world that they respect democracy, have the balls to stand on their own two feet and will not be pushed around by beaurocrats. They have done us all a favor in the long run, such power must not be confined to one superstate.

And my observation is the opposite.

The world looks on with a mixture of bewilderment and amusement.

Added even more to the fact some of the most dedicated and heroic Brexiteers fighting the good fight against the EU clamour to shift wealth funds, obtain passports, buy property and obtain citizenship within the very entity they claim to despise so much and can't wait to be rid of!

Ironically your last sentence is going to be a real test of character of the UK today in the coming weeks and months when the SNP's IndyRef2 starts to gain traction. We'll see then what the UK is really made of - a true United Kingdom of equals or simply three nations dictated to by a fourth, higher authority...

declanflynn

theological wrote: »

Goodness the language in your post is quite strong.

You're right Brexit isn't a war. It's a country saying they don't want to be a part of the EU so they can have more control over certain areas of policy. The British public decided it was better to leave the European Union than to pool sovereignty with 27 other countries.

That's their legitimate choice which they have made.

Meanwhile every other country in the world is a member of a trading group or is trying to join one

weldoninhio

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Oh and by the way Verhoffstdat alone is a reason for the EU to disband, a complete snake

He wants to give any British citizen that wants it, EU citizenship. So the rest of us have to pay for the citizens of a country that voted to leave. Democracy right there. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Amazing how irish people think this about the British while in the same breath think that the irish are universally loved worldwide

and accuse the British of being arrogant :pac:

First Up

theological wrote:

That's their legitimate choice which they have made.

Yes, and as it was their choice they are 100% responsible for the consequences. All of them.

threeball

declanflynn wrote: »

Its gonna be great for britian as well, if it all goes to plan you wont be trading with ur neighbours which are just a few kms away, you will be doing business with countries 000's of kms away, that has to be a benifit especially in a time which we every country needs to burn more fuel on transportation

This is going to be key going forward. Globalism has dominated the market for the last 20-30yrs but I think you will see a change in this in the next 10-15yrs where people and companies will try to purchase goods and services more locally due to the effects of climate change and shipping goods round the world because they are a couple of % cheaper will no longer be acceptable.

Britain couldn't be running off looking for these imaginary far flung trade deals at a worse time.

20silkcut

theological wrote: »

Goodness the language in your post is quite strong.

You're right Brexit isn't a war. It's a country saying they don't want to be a part of the EU so they can have more control over certain areas of policy. The British public decided it was better to leave the European Union than to pool sovereignty with 27 other countries.

That's their legitimate choice which they have made.

Absolutely and nobody has stopped Britain leaving bar British politicians themselves.

This particular argument was whether Britain was widely respected for opting for brexit.

biko

weldoninhio wrote: »

He wants to give any British citizen that wants it, EU citizenship. So the rest of us have to pay for the citizens of a country that voted to leave. Democracy right there. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Afaik what EU associate citizenship entails is not clear. So there may just be a travel thing and not access to welfare etc. So it's not clear if it will cost you the Irish taxpayer anything.
Or it could mean Brits living in other EU countries can remain living there without a visa.

How to tell which side of the fence this guy is on..
https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Give-Britons-abroad-in-the-EU-associate-EU-citizenship-says-Guy-Verhofstadt

“Why? Never can citizens, British and Europeans alike, be the victims of this – in my opinion not very intelligent – choice, of Brexit.

Again they try to muddle the water between EU and Europe.

He added: “More and more people are coming back to the idea of European associate citizenship for British citizens who want to continue to feel that they are European, and I think that we have to be open to that request.”

Brits will always be Europeans, just not EU members.

seamus

weldoninhio wrote: »

He wants to give any British citizen that wants it, EU citizenship. So the rest of us have to pay for the citizens of a country that voted to leave. Democracy right there. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Any free movement of UK citizens within the EU would require an equivalent right for EU citizens in the UK.

It can't legally work any other way. Verhofstadt knows this, but what he's doing here is putting it up to Johnson to expressly state that the UK government will not permit the free movement of UK citizens in the EU after Brexit.

Verhofstadt is a bit of a snake, but I'm not going to condemn him for playing the same games that the Tories have been playing.

declanflynn

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Hes actually a great guy, but I'm a bit dissapointed hasn't turfed the brits out by now.

end of the road

theological wrote: »

Goodness the language in your post is quite strong.

You're right Brexit isn't a war. It's a country saying they don't want to be a part of the EU so they can have more control over certain areas of policy. The British public decided it was better to leave the European Union than to pool sovereignty with 27 other countries.

That's their legitimate choice which they have made.

the certain areas of policy britain wants more control over, they already have full control over, the british government just don't want to actually pay to insure they have the required resources to exercise that control.
the british government and elements of their support base, just want to exercise it on the cheap, and blame someone else when it goes exactly the way it was always going to, very, very wrong.
well nope sorry, it's the british government's fault that britain has been mismanaged for decades, not the european union, not those who want to remain part of it, nobody else but the government.

First Up

declanflynn wrote:

Hes actually a great guy, but I'm a bit dissapointed hasn't turfed the brits out by now.

He has had the Brexiteers' number from Day 1. I can understand why they dislike him.

Snickers Man

theological wrote: »

I find it interesting how many people on this forum declare their point of view on Brexit as a specifically Irish point of view. You are just an Irish person who happens to have an opinion. As am I. I happen to respect democracy.

Not liking the result of a particular election or referendum is not the same as disrespecting democracy. I accept that Brexit is happening, and have done since the referendum was concluded. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.

And my opinion is not motivated by what I think is best for Britain--I'm not British nor do I live there. It's motivated entirely by what I think it's effect will be on Ireland, where I live. So it's not a question of me insisting to the British that they should vote a particular way because it's in my interest; I absolutely accept that they have to vote in a way they think benefits themselves. All I'm saying is that there is a significant body of opinion in Britain, not a majority clearly, who see it in their best interests to Remain. And that is the body of opinion I am plugged in to through personal history and relationships, dating back to the decade I spent there.

Of course we are entitled, as neighbours, to an opinion about the effect that Britain leaving will have on us. Also, we are entitled to pursue certain positions in respect of our own interests during the negotiations that will frame the subsequent relationship between Britain outside the EU and ourselves in it. That is something we DO have a say over. Not the fact of Britain leaving; that's a matter for them.

theological wrote: »

I'm thankful that I'm not obligated to share your opinion by virtue of my nationality.

The relief is mutual, I assure you.

theological wrote: »

As for your friends on social media, ..you and your friends are pretty out of touch with most British people.

These people lost an election. That's life. They need to get over it. The snobbish idea that you have that everyone who voted Tory in this election is "ugly" is pretty childish.

What? My British friends are out of touch with, er, themselves???
What an arrogant statement!! Now who's the snob?

Those people are representative of a significant body of opinion in the UK. Albeit, not large enough to prevent the election of an ultranationalist and extremely ugly ruling party. It's the cabal in charge and their gruesome cohorts on the back bench egging them on who are the ugly ones, not the electorate themselves. But that electorate has indeed elected an ugly and aggressive ruling party. No apologies for describing them as such.

I reiterate: this is the true vision of "One Nation Conservatism" an expansionist, exploitative ruling elite seducing the bottom layer with promises of improved national prestige and heightened standing in the world, especially in comparison to those horrible, vacillating foreigners.

They may well try and bestow some largesse to their new supporters in the area formerly known as the "Red Wall" but the question is how will that largesse be distributed? Only to those, I hesitate to use the term "working class" but let us say lower income groups who are demonstrably loyal to a vision of Britain.

How that largesse will be delivered will depend on how "loyal" the recipients are to the vision of Britain espoused by Boris and his gang over the next five years. The last thing this version of the Tory party wants is to allow a working class identity, naturally inimical to the Tories, to reconstitute itself. That's the sort of sensibility, after all, that created the Labour Party as a power in the land.

No. These are One Nation Tories and membership of that One Nation for those on the lower end of the economic scale will depend on their ferocious and vociferous loyalty to the cause of Ingerland sticking it to Johnny Foreigner. They'll find some fault lines on which to divide the loyal from the treasonous. That's what One Nation parties tend to do.

Look at the history of Northern Ireland (1921-1972) for how that works in practice. And look what happened to it.

See if I'm right.

Snickers Man

20silkcut wrote: »

I could throw up a photo of Anne widdecombe or farage or Rees- mogg.

Oh please DON'T!!! :eek::eek:

Snickers Man

Kidchameleon wrote: »

They have declared to the world that they respect democracy, have the balls to stand on their own two feet and will not be pushed around by beaurocrats. They have done us all a favor in the long run, such power must not be confined to one superstate.

Yes. Sir Humphrey is a typical name of someone who lives in Brussels and operates a pan-European department from a plush, tax-payer funded apartment close to the parliament building.

Oh wait a minute......

theological

declanflynn wrote: »

Meanwhile every other country in the world is a member of a trading group or is trying to join one

You know that the EU isn't just a trading group. It is a political project. That is part of the reason why the UK decided to leave.

You also know that the conditions of joining the EU are more stringent than any trading group in the world. No other free trade area I know of requires giving up control over immigration law, your entire tariff schedule and trade policy, competition law, supremacy of domestic courts, fishing waters, and accepting huge swathes of legislation that cannot be opposed in your own domestic parliament and you have to pay for the privilege.

I'm not saying that being a member of the EU has no advantages but it does have drawbacks and it does require more control to be handed over than a free trade area.

Despite reluctantly voting for remain in 2016, I can see why the British public decided to leave the EU.

end of the road wrote: »

the certain areas of policy britain wants more control over, they already have full control over, the british government just don't want to actually pay to insure they have the required resources to exercise that control.
the british government and elements of their support base, just want to exercise it on the cheap, and blame someone else when it goes exactly the way it was always going to, very, very wrong.
well nope sorry, it's the british government's fault that britain has been mismanaged for decades, not the european union, not those who want to remain part of it, nobody else but the government.

You know as well as I do if you read The Treaty of the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) that when you join the EU that there are areas where the EU takes exclusive competence over domestic law and there are areas where the EU has shared competence over domestic law. You can read Articles 3 and 4 of this treaty yourself.

It is fine to argue that ceding this competence is worth it but it is dishonest to say that joining the EU requires no ceding of competence at all.

I can see the argument for Brexit on the handing over of control front. Particularly when your nation is a net contributor to EU funds rather than a beneficiary.

First Up

theological wrote:

You know that the EU isn't just a trading group. It is a political project. That is part of the reason why the UK decided to leave.

They are leaving the most sucessful economic, political and social project in history and one built on the rubble of recent warfare among most of the members.

It grew from being little more than 6 countries looking to prevent future wars to become one of the wealthiest and socially advanced parts of the planet.

If you can't see, admire and embrace the genius of that then you don't deserve to be a member.

declanflynn

theological wrote: »

You know that the EU isn't just a trading group. It is a political project. That is part of the reason why the UK decided to leave.

You also know that the conditions of joining the EU are more stringent than any trading group in the world. No other free trade area I know of requires giving up control over immigration law, your entire tariff schedule and trade policy, competition law, supremacy of domestic courts, fishing waters, and accepting huge swathes of legislation that cannot be opposed in your own domestic parliament and you have to pay for the privilege.

I'm not saying that being a member of the EU has no advantages but it does have drawbacks and it does require more control to be handed over than a free trade area.

Despite reluctantly voting for remain in 2016, I can see why the British public decided to leave the EU.



You know as well as I do if you read The Treaty of the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) that when you join the EU that there are areas where the EU takes exclusive competence over domestic law and there are areas where the EU has shared competence over domestic law. You can read Articles 3 and 4 of this treaty yourself.

It is fine to argue that ceding this competence is worth it but it is dishonest to say that joining the EU requires no ceding of competence at all.

I can see the argument for Brexit on the handing over of control front. Particularly when your nation is a net contributor to EU funds rather than a beneficiary.

You sound like u regret not voting leave

trashcan

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Please do, legends.

Please don't, I've just had my dinner.

theological

declanflynn wrote: »

You sound like u regret not voting leave

I sound like someone who accepted the result in 2016, and someone who sees that in 2019 the death knell was given to remain.

I understand the arguments on both sides, but that discussion ended for me three and a half years ago. It is time to move on and get the best arrangement possible.

Snickers Man wrote: »

What? My British friends are out of touch with, er, themselves???
What an arrogant statement!! Now who's the snob?

Your friends are out of touch with the majority of the British public. That's a fair observation given the election result last week. Most British people aren't die hard remainers who refuse to accept three separate times when the electorate have been asked about this. This seems to be a view confined to metropolitan types who look down on others.

I find it interesting how emotive some people are about this subject. The EU is not the be-all and end-all. There are benefits of membership and drawbacks of membership. The British public decided the drawbacks were greater. It is perfectly possible that the UK will be successful outside of it.

First Up

theological wrote:

I find it interesting how emotive some people are about this subject. The EU is not the be-all and end-all. There are benefits of membership and drawbacks of membership. The British public decided the drawbacks were greater. It is perfectly possible that the UK will be successful outside of it.

Members since 1973 so most of the British public have only ever known EU membership. Their ability to compare advantages and drawbacks is a bit limited but I guess they will find out now.

davedanon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Indeed. Id take the views of a billionairre over anyone here regarding economics

It's 'billionaire'. And Spanky isn't one. There's a very good chance his net realised worth now is less than the $415 million dollars he bilked out of his dad. He has multiple bankruptcies to his name, including casinos, ffs, which are as close to a money tree as exists in this world. He is a hopeless businessman. Americans banks declared him a pariah long, long ago, which is why he turned to Russia for finance, and why we are where we are now.

And as for actual economics, don't make me laugh. Spanky could be out-thought by your average 7 year-old. Greta has been owning him all year.

ancapailldorcha

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Indeed. Id take the views of a billionairre over anyone here regarding economics

This guy? Really?

Donald Trump wrote:

“Look, having nuclear — my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart — you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I’m one of the smartest people anywhere in the world — it’s true! — but when you’re a conservative Republican they try — oh, do they do a number — that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune — you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged — but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me — it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are — nuclear is so powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what’s going to happen and he was right, who would have thought? — but when you look at what’s going on with the four prisoners — now it used to be three, now it’s four — but when it was three and even now, I would have said it’s all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don’t, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years — but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us, this is horrible.”

He's been impeached by the way. First President to seek re-election after the event.

davedanon

President Word Salad. Donnie Dementia.