Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Tony EH

First Up wrote: »

I'm not getting into that stuff. The electorate gets the people it votes in. They deserve each other.

That's far, far, too simplistic.

First Up

Tony EH wrote:

That's far, far, too simplistic.

It is also realistic. Talking about changing the parliamentary and election system is pie in the sky and solves nothing.

I operate in the real world. The UK has made a catastrophic mistake; my energy is going into minimising any damage and making the most of the opportunities.

Padre_Pio

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You will cling on to anything. Go find the countless posts I have made saying dates doesn't matter, it's meaningless as the destination remains the same. It's happening and like the never to be reopened withdrawal agreement the chumps in brussels will be caving like a cheap argos tent again.

Crypto, you are the epitomy of cognitive dissonance.

That bus and the leaving date were the drum that you and the leavers were banging for months.
Now that they've turned into the rope leavers have hanged themselves on.

We all agree Brexit will happen (eventually). But how it's happened has been absolutely farcical. Boris has won a massive election victory, but it's not been by his own political accumen and guille. While people are still split on leave and remain, either choice is better than this weird twilight zone that the British government has been stuck in for the past 3 years.


Bear in mind Brexit is still years away. Even when Theresa May's withdrawal agreement (because it's essentially the same agreement, except maybe more in favour for the EU) is passed, Britain will still have at least one year of transition. I'd say this will be extended again and again as Britain fails to get an acceptable terms on leaving.

Tony EH

First Up wrote: »

It is also realistic.

No, it isn't. All you're doing is putting the blame on the votership when the game is essentially rigged.

First Up wrote: »

Talking about changing the parliamentary and election system is pie in the sky and solves nothing.

I operate in the real world. The UK has made a catastrophic mistake; my energy is going into minimising any damage and making the most of the opportunities.

There is nothing you are going to be able to do to realistically minimise Brexit. Now that really is "pie in the sky".

First Up

Tony EH wrote:

There is nothing you are going to be able to do to realistically minimise Brexit. Now that really is "pie in the sky".

I'm talking about minimising any negative impact on me, my business associates or anyone I'm connected with.

The UK can go its merry way.

Donald Trump

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You will cling on to anything. Go find the countless posts I have made saying dates doesn't matter, it's meaningless as the destination remains the same. It's happening and like the never to be reopened withdrawal agreement the chumps in brussels will be caving like a cheap argos tent again.

Well if you are not going to worry about dates, and you predict the demise of something, then you are going to be correct anyway.

In about 4 billion years the sun will swell in size and expand out, engulfing the earth.

cryptocurrency

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Crypto, you are the epitomy of cognitive dissonance.

That bus and the leaving date were the drum that you and the leavers were banging for months.
Now that they've turned into the rope leavers have hanged themselves on.

We all agree Brexit will happen (eventually). But how it's happened has been absolutely farcical. Boris has won a massive election victory, but it's not been by his own political accumen and guille. While people are still split on leave and remain, either choice is better than this weird twilight zone that the British government has been stuck in for the past 3 years.


Bear in mind Brexit is still years away. Even when Theresa May's withdrawal agreement (because it's essentially the same agreement, except maybe more in favour for the EU) is passed, Britain will still have at least one year of transition. I'd say this will be extended again and again as Britain fails to get an acceptable terms on leaving.

find where i ever cared about the buss. It's a simple thing that gets extemely stupid remainers foaming at the mouth and normal people are baffled. ....like them shouting russia.

Her WA you say? minus the backstop and a drop dead no extension clause. You are beyond delusional now.

Snickers Man

tonycascarino wrote: »

I personally think the EU will cave in to whatever Boris wants as in the end they will poop in their pants re a no deal.

Why on earth do you think the EU will "cave"? If they allow the British similar access to the single market that they currently, er, enjoy but without having to adhere to the basic qualifying ground rules such as those limiting state intervention, guaranteeing a modicum of workers' rights or basic regulation of product-safety standards then they will be allowing Boris Johnson his notorious "have our cake and eat it" solution.

Which would ultimately weaken the EU from within as many other countries would, reasonably, say "If that buffoon can get such a fantastic deal, why can't we?"

So the idea must remain as a British fantasy.

If Britain is to be "successful" after leaving the EU it will have to be through a different policy. It will need to re-engage with its former colonial possessions. And I suspect countries like India will have their own ideas about who owns the curry and who gets to eat it.

As an English friend put it to me recently: "Lots of countries fought to get out of the British Empire; none of them have ever fought to get back in".

davedanon

Crypto and chameleon want back in.

Snickers Man

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Her WA you say? minus the backstop and a drop dead no extension clause. You are beyond delusional now.

Minus the backstop, plus a, let's say firm not hard, border in the Irish Sea? That wasn't always in the Brexit script now was it?

And as for a "drop dead no-extension clause"? Well, we'll see. If he can't get a trade deal organised in a year (and that seems implausible) then it's hard exit.

And that will expose the fault line in the Brexit-supporting community, which is essentially a coalition between the aggressively rich and the sullenly poor against the so-called "elite" in the middle.

The former half of the Brexit coalition, the Arran Banks' and Jacob Rees-Moggs' of this world, won't mind it so much; the latter half, typically those residents of former mining towns whose local economies were destroyed by the Thatcherites in the 1980s and who have now taken their revenge by, er, voting in the Tories!!! will want some return and fast. This is not a long-term infatuation; it is very much a hurried marriage of convenience.

How will such rewards be delivered? They ain't going to be re-opening any coal mines, nor will they be building car factories, or even aero component plants to replace the foreign-owned companies that will flee as they have promised (Project Fear? You think?) at the first announcement of a crashout so what will be the alternative?

Knowledge economy jobs, perchance? Well, apart from the fact that they typically require you to have the sort of education that is typically only pursued by those "snobby, elitist, effete, avocado toast munching, latte drinking, Islington dwelling, politically correct, tree hugging, hybrid car driving, **** off to pictures of Greta Thunberg, soft southern ****es" they are also the sort of jobs most vulnerable to competition from really low cost countries.

To become economic with those places you really have to be prepared to be ultra "competitive". Which means lower labour costs, lower taxes, longer working hours for less reward"

Maybe Enoch Powell, a great Brexiteer remember, was right. Maybe the black (and brown, Powell mainly feared the brown) man will have the whip hand over the white man. But not by moving physically into his territory, just virtually into his workspace.

Kermit.de.frog

Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.

First President of the European Coal and Steel Community - Jean Monnet.

The EU is German dominance by a means other than military. That is what the CIA wanted - that is what it still wants because German dominance with slave and feckless peripheral countries holding down the value of the currency and thereby boosting German exports in their calculation means no war in Europe. And they are correct - why would German militaristic expansionary instincts re-emerge after they have had everything so good since 1992?

Monnet of course was French but Germany was willing to come to an arrangement with France. France could have nuclear weapons, France could have it's commonwealth...but Germany would have the real power - the EU.

The Germans toyed with "nations that were not nations" before WW1. They began a concept of "limited sovereignty", Ukraine was the prime example - pretend sovereignty where the victims would have the illusion of an independence but would be run by Germany ultimately.

Nothing has changed - we are all willingly being the turkeys.

It's incredible really. What an amazing people. Very different to the liberals who think we all owe our lives to the EU.

They are the very useful idiots.

Germany will be calm so long as it's exports remain high against it's GDP. That can only be so within this catastrophic construct of the Eurozone which will keep the southern periphery countries on their knees and the euro (German controlled currency) weak. This makes Germany rich and powerful and everyone else weak and helpless.

That is what the EU is. And it will all end in tears sadly.

The UK has made the correct decision for themselves and I strongly believe we will be forced to make a difficult decision ourselves in little more than a decade.

greencap

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

First President of the European Coal and Steel Community - Jean Monnet.

The EU is German dominance by a means other than military. That is what the CIA wanted - that is what it still wants because German dominance with slave and feckless peripheral countries holding down the value of the currency and thereby boosting German exports in their calculation means no war in Europe. And they are correct - why would German militaristic expansionary instincts re-emerge after they have had everything so good since 1992?

Monnet of course was French but Germany was willing to come to an arrangement with France. France could have nuclear weapons, France could have it's commonwealth...but Germany would have the real power - the EU.

The Germans toyed with "nations that were not nations" before WW1. They began a concept of "limited sovereignty", Ukraine was the prime example - pretend sovereignty where the victims would have the illusion of an independence but would be run by Germany ultimately.

Nothing has changed - we are all willingly being the turkeys.

It's incredible really. What an amazing people. Very different to the liberals who think we all owe our lives to the EU.

They are the very useful idiots.

Germany will be calm so long as it's exports remain high against it's GDP. That can only be so within this catastrophic construct of the Eurozone which will keep the southern periphery countries on their knees and the euro (German controlled currency) weak. This makes Germany rich and powerful and everyone else weak and helpless.

That is what the EU is. And it will all end in tears sadly.

The UK has made the correct decision for themselves and I strongly believe we will be forced to make a difficult decision ourselves in little more than a decade.

What a load of shyte.

Its like this, if I want to sell you something, and you want to sell me something then its a bit pointless for us both to be working to different standards, and then realising at the moment of transaction that 'oh yours is made with asbestos' and 'what do you mean you don't accept lead based paint'.

Its against basic logic for people within a continent/area like western/central Europe to keep putting up borders, or failing to eradicate obstacles to the trade everyone needs.

And that necessitates legal and therefore political cooperation.

The only conspiracy is one of making sure that people can carry on their business and lives without having to deal with their produts having uncertain standards, having to make multiple border crossings with multiple delays, fill out multiple forms, pay multiple customs duties, and conduct business in multiple different exchange rates.

One road leads to a tomato costing a tenner and needing a month's lead time.
The other means I can sell/order to/from the other end of the continent like it was my local supermarket.

Liberals my ass. One of the biggest capitalist entities to have existed. Saving business billions, skyrocketed economies, freed and opened markets.

Kermit.de.frog

greencap wrote: »

What a load of shyte.

Its like this, if I want to sell you something, and you want to sell me something then its a bit pointless for us both to be working to different standards, and then realising at the moment of transaction that 'oh yours is made with asbestos' and 'what do you mean you don't accept lead based paint'.

Its against basic logic for people within a continent/area like western/central Europe to keep putting up borders, or failing to eradicate obstacles to the trade everyone needs.

And that necessitates legal and therefore political cooperation.

The only conspiracy is one of making sure that people can carry on their business and lives without having to deal with their produts having uncertain standards, having to make multiple border crossings with multiple delays, fill out multiple forms, pay multiple customs duties, and conduct business in multiple different exchange rates.

One road leads to a tomato costing a tenner and needing a month's lead time.
The other means I can sell/order to/from the other end of the continent like it was my local supermarket.

Liberals my ass. One of the biggest capitalist entities to have existed. Saving business billions, skyrocketed economies, freed and opened markets.

If you don't believe what I have said about the euro and German dominance then you have no clue about economics at best and at worst you are hopelessly deluded.

The Euro is artificially kept low for Germany through the weak southern countries.

Germany will be happy so long as that is the case. And they will bloody well ensure that is ALWAYS the case.

Those countries are the victims. Simple as that.

greencap

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If you don't believe what I have said about the euro and German dominance then you have no clue about economics at best and at worst you are hopelessly deluded.

The Euro is artificially kept low for Germany through the weak southern countries.

Germany will be happy so long as that is the case. And they will bloody well ensure that is ALWAYS the case.

Those countries are the victims. Simple as that.

Yeah Germany benefited from the devaluation. And yes some guy said something in 19-diggity-2. And yes Germany has a history of expansion.

These things alone are all true. But it doesn't mean there's some century long secret plot which was begun by the kaiser.

It would be a bit of a shtty plot as all it would have taken was a referendum just like brexit to happen in any given member country.
Or for any member country to get the hump at some point and use its veto to stop a country from joining. .

In the absense of any prior wars or imperial aspirations in Europe's history, if nothing dramatic had ever happened at any point, perfect peace, then we'd still all eventually reach the natural conclusion that it's moronic that we all use 27 different measures and currencies.

We'd eventually reach the same natural conclusions for the sake of practicality as has been the case in the US.

Shared standards for simplicity of trade, agreed regulations, mutual compromise on important issues across the geographical area for the sake of a stable system. So we can get sht done. That's just human nature.

Just as a passport is the same thing in China as in Croatia. Humans en masse agreed on something for the sake of cutting through the bull**** efficiently.

Same thing with EU regulations.

Kermit.de.frog

....

cryptocurrency

German dominance me hoop. He is toast now and it will be a slow but obvious end to the project.

First Up

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

First President of the European Coal and Steel Community - Jean Monnet.

The EU is German dominance by a means other than military. That is what the CIA wanted - that is what it still wants because German dominance with slave and feckless peripheral countries holding down the value of the currency and thereby boosting German exports in their calculation means no war in Europe. And they are correct - why would German militaristic expansionary instincts re-emerge after they have had everything so good since 1992?

Monnet of course was French but Germany was willing to come to an arrangement with France. France could have nuclear weapons, France could have it's commonwealth...but Germany would have the real power - the EU.

The Germans toyed with "nations that were not nations" before WW1. They began a concept of "limited sovereignty", Ukraine was the prime example - pretend sovereignty where the victims would have the illusion of an independence but would be run by Germany ultimately.

Nothing has changed - we are all willingly being the turkeys.

It's incredible really. What an amazing people. Very different to the liberals who think we all owe our lives to the EU.

They are the very useful idiots.

Germany will be calm so long as it's exports remain high against it's GDP. That can only be so within this catastrophic construct of the Eurozone which will keep the southern periphery countries on their knees and the euro (German controlled currency) weak. This makes Germany rich and powerful and everyone else weak and helpless.

That is what the EU is. And it will all end in tears sadly.

The UK has made the correct decision for themselves and I strongly believe we will be forced to make a difficult decision ourselves in little more than a decade.

Can you find where and when Monnet said that? Because nobody else can.

Monnet was certainly a passionate advocate of a federalised Europe after WW2 but he never held elected office. He was an economist whose writings and advocacy initiated the establishment of the European Coal and Steel Commission (the UK refused to join), which evolved into the EEC and later EC.

But he was not the architect of a sinister conspiracy as you seem to want us to believe. Just another Brexiteer distortion but if you have to use uncorroborated quotes from 60+ years ago, you are really struggling.

Padre_Pio

cryptocurrency wrote: »

find where i ever cared about the buss. It's a simple thing that gets extemely stupid remainers foaming at the mouth and normal people are baffled. ....like them shouting russia.

Her WA you say? minus the backstop and a drop dead no extension clause. You are beyond delusional now.

Yep, instead of the threat of the backstop, Boris just implemented the backstop as a solution to the customs border. Great news for ROI, not so good for Northern Ireland, and will probably pave the way for a breakup of the Union.

"Drop dead no extension clause"? from Boris "Dead in a Ditch" Johnson?
If you can enter a law to prevent an extension, you can enter a law to allow an extension.

Bit cynical

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Yep, instead of the threat of the backstop, Boris just implemented the backstop as a solution to the customs border. Great news for ROI, not so good for Northern Ireland, and will probably pave the way for a breakup of the Union.

Except that the front stop as it stands would probably be in violation of the earlier WA had it been ratified.

Padre_Pio

Bit cynical wrote: »

Except that the front stop as it stands would probably be in violation of the earlier WA had it been ratified.

The backstop is now a frontstop :D

Bit cynical

Padre_Pio wrote: »

The backstop is now a frontstop :D

And the modified frontstop now needs its own backstop.

Padre_Pio

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Yep, instead of the threat of the backstop, Boris just implemented the backstop as a solution to the customs border. Great news for ROI, not so good for Northern Ireland, and will probably pave the way for a breakup of the Union.

"Drop dead no extension clause"? from Boris "Dead in a Ditch" Johnson?
If you can enter a law to prevent an extension, you can enter a law to allow an extension.

You can, but it also prevents the UK being tied in against its will.

davedanon

Apparently Kate Hoey tweeted that fake Monnet quote the other day, and was roundly mocked and ridiculed for it.

davedanon

https://fullfact.org/europe/jean-monnet-quote/

greencap

davedanon wrote: »

Apparently Kate Hoey tweeted that fake Monnet quote the other day, and was roundly mocked and ridiculed for it.

Off to find her tweet and the ensuing large scale public debunking and tasty mockery.

MadYaker

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

First President of the European Coal and Steel Community - Jean Monnet.

The EU is German dominance by a means other than military. That is what the CIA wanted - that is what it still wants because German dominance with slave and feckless peripheral countries holding down the value of the currency and thereby boosting German exports in their calculation means no war in Europe. And they are correct - why would German militaristic expansionary instincts re-emerge after they have had everything so good since 1992?

Monnet of course was French but Germany was willing to come to an arrangement with France. France could have nuclear weapons, France could have it's commonwealth...but Germany would have the real power - the EU.

The Germans toyed with "nations that were not nations" before WW1. They began a concept of "limited sovereignty", Ukraine was the prime example - pretend sovereignty where the victims would have the illusion of an independence but would be run by Germany ultimately.

Nothing has changed - we are all willingly being the turkeys.

It's incredible really. What an amazing people. Very different to the liberals who think we all owe our lives to the EU.

They are the very useful idiots.

Germany will be calm so long as it's exports remain high against it's GDP. That can only be so within this catastrophic construct of the Eurozone which will keep the southern periphery countries on their knees and the euro (German controlled currency) weak. This makes Germany rich and powerful and everyone else weak and helpless.

That is what the EU is. And it will all end in tears sadly.

The UK has made the correct decision for themselves and I strongly believe we will be forced to make a difficult decision ourselves in little more than a decade.

You know there’s a European Parliament right? We have elections and send MEPs every year and that’s where EU decisions are made. It’s in Brussels not Germany. I’m guessing you thought the EU was some sort of monarchy run by Germany. You must be American. You have a lot to learn about how the E.U works. Could you go into detail on how exactly it’s all going to end in tears and what difficult decisions we’ll be forced to make? Which southern countries are on their knees and what do you mean by that? Fascinating perspective but it doesn’t line up with reality.

First Up

MadYaker wrote:

You know there’s a European Parliament right? We have elections and send MEPs every year and that’s where EU decisions are made. It’s in Brussels not Germany. I’m guessing you thought the EU was some sort of monarchy run by Germany. You must be American. You have a lot to learn about how the E.U works. Could you go into detail on how exactly it’s all going to end in tears and what difficult decisions we’ll be forced to make? Which southern countries are on their knees and what do you mean by that? Fascinating perspective but it doesn’t line up with reality.

But Kate Hoey told him its all a plot so why let mere facts and reality intrude?

So the quote was fiction? That's hilarious.

First Up

Deleted User wrote:

So the quote was fiction? That's hilarious.

The entire Brexit argument is fiction but it serves to disguise the only genuine reason - they really, really don't like foreigners.

davedanon

First Up wrote: »

The entire Brexit argument is fiction but it serves to disguise the only genuine reason - they really, really don't like foreigners.

And yet more Brits want to live abroad than forrins want to live in Britain. They want to live in Europe, but have their warm British and full English breakfasts and not have to listen to forrin people speaking forrin. It's the vestigial remnants of a collective memory of ruling other countries.