Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Kidchameleon

First Up wrote: »

The entire Brexit argument is fiction but it serves to disguise the only genuine reason - they really, really don't like foreigners.

Na, they want to make their own way in the world. Fair play to them.

davedanon

Hehe. You'd love an Irexit, wouldn't you?

end of the road

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Na, they want to make their own way in the world. Fair play to them.

so they want to do what they always have been doing, making their own way in the world, accept now they will be at a disadvantage.

First Up

Kidchameleon wrote:

Na, they want to make their own way in the world. Fair play to them.

Same thing.

Kidchameleon

end of the road wrote: »

so they want to do what they always have been doing, making their own way in the world, accept now they will be at a disadvantage.

The EU was grabbing more and more power over its members year on year. It started out as a trading block and it was on a trajectory to be a US of Europe.

Ah christ I couldnt be bothered. Happy Christmas

osarusan

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

First President of the European Coal and Steel Community - Jean Monnet.

That "quote" has been posted 13 times on boards, with the first instance more than 11 years ago. Not just in Politics, Current Affairs, and After Hours, but also in the Shooting and UCD forums.

Just goes to show how far, and how far back, 'fake news'* goes, and how hard it is to combat.

*Fake news in the sense that it has been deliberately falsified and disseminated for other people to accept as truth.

Tony EH

osarusan wrote: »

That "quote" has been posted 13 times on boards, with the first instance more than 11 years ago. Not just in Politics, Current Affairs, and After Hours, but also in the Shooting and UCD forums.

Just goes to show how far, and how far back, 'fake news'* goes.

Fake news in the sense that it has been deliberately falsified and disseminated for other people to accept as truth.

Some people don't care whether a statement is false, or fake, or just an outright lie, so long as it appeals to their politics.

Truth doesn't matter.

davedanon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The EU was grabbing more and more power over its members year on year. It started out as a trading block and it was on a trajectory to be a US of Europe.

Ah christ I couldnt be bothered. Happy Christmas

But you can be bothered. Every time. This post is just a re-statement of the lie which had just been debunked. Prove any of your statements, any of them, and then some of us might wish you a happy christmas in return.

Kidchameleon

davedanon wrote: »

But you can be bothered. Every time. This post is just a re-statement of the lie which had just been debunked. Prove any of your statements, any of them, and then some of us might wish you a happy christmas in return.

What is there to prove? The EU HAS accumulated power

end of the road

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The EU was grabbing more and more power over its members year on year. It started out as a trading block and it was on a trajectory to be a US of Europe.

Ah christ I couldnt be bothered. Happy Christmas

could you name what more and more power it was grabbing? some examples would be nice.
britain and all other members vote for any changes to the european union. so if britain has a problem with an existing rule, chances are it actually voted for it in the first place when it could have not done so.

davedanon

If the EU has 'accumulated' power, it has done so democratically, with all members having an equal vote. But I too would like to hear examples of what is considered to be 'accumulating power'.

davedanon

We're waiting...

When the EU began you'd never have had countries being told to take migrants against their will. On threat of sanction.

Kermit.de.frog

MadYaker wrote: »

You know there’s a European Parliament right? We have elections and send MEPs every year and that’s where EU decisions are made. It’s in Brussels not Germany. I’m guessing you thought the EU was some sort of monarchy run by Germany. You must be American. You have a lot to learn about how the E.U works. Could you go into detail on how exactly it’s all going to end in tears and what difficult decisions we’ll be forced to make? Which southern countries are on their knees and what do you mean by that? Fascinating perspective but it doesn’t line up with reality.

Italy, Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain are victims of the Eurozone and Germany runs the ECB. It's a prison from which escape will be painful.

Germany decides monetary policy in Europe. What the Bundesbank says goes.

It's not only in German national interest but it is also a consequence of the size of Germany and the nature of it's economy.

Germany exports nearly 50% of everything it produces.

Having busted, debt ridden, un-reconstructable economies on the periphery is in Germany's interest because it keeps, what is in reality the Deutschmark, artificially way lower than it should be against all other currencies.

The prison works fine for Germany (because they run it) which is why they will NEVER EVER agree to notions of a transfer union where they would transfer money to the weaker countries within the currency.

We need to stop being in denial about what the EU is and what the Eurozone in particular is.

There is no future for the southern med countries within the eurozone. Maybe you could say Ireland is bit more export led economy but we have no monetary control which means we don't have the tools to be able to break boom bust cycles.

Those tools are with Germany. Which is why ultimately we will have to leave.

It will probably take the next crisis to wake people up to what a disaster this currency is for everyone else.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The prison works fine for Germany (because they run it)

Surely you've been on boards long enough to know that including that sort of nonsense just negates everything else in your post.

Kermit.de.frog

If people want to be in denial that the governor of the Bundesbank decides ECB policy then let them be. It is the truth.

I know it hurts for those that have brought in to this project.

And it is the reason our countries were asset stripped and bankrupted during the crash because in large part we could not devalue a currency of our own nor control interest rates.

We don't have that basic tool any sovereign country has. That is with Germany. The only sovereign country in the EU.

Others may live in a post fact world - I don't. This is fact, not fiction. And people need to wake up quick as to what this project is.

It is nothing more than to contain Germany and hope they are satisfied with control of Europe this way rather than another way.

It is nothing more than that and we are paying a dreadful price on the periphery.

kowloon

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If people want to be in denial that the governor of the Bundesbank decides ECB policy then let them be. It is the truth.

How does that work in practice? Do they directly order the council or do you mean something else?

Kermit.de.frog

kowloon wrote: »

How does that work in practice? Do they directly order the council or do you mean something else?

They don't have to order anything. No country's governor not already bankrupt will dare go against anything the Bundesbank says.

So you will get the bankrupts and near insolvents queuing up saying what the Bundesbank should do - the core countries will never do that because they know where their bread is buttered in Germany.

Spain, for example, and even worse in Italy - these countries are close to economic collapse. Italy is a time bomb (in absolute debt terms a third world country masquarading as a first world one and that is before you look at their banks) - they can't get out of it because they don't have the monetary tools.

It's a prison - what are they to do? All they can do is devalue internally through their budgets.

This is severe and leads to social disorder, chaos and deprivation.

We are forced to internally devalue through our budgets because Germany is perfectly content and won't do ANYTHING to relieve it because they profit from it through their own exports.

That's some "solidarity" eh?

But it is truth people don't want to hear.

First Up

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

But it is truth people don't want to hear.

And this from someone who swallows Kate Hoey's misquotes without question.

Kermit.de.frog

I never, nor would I, quote such a person.

Your attempt to divert in your mindless devotion to the EU project has failed. You can not take it. You can not accept fact - what is evident.

It's Trump like.

Next!

First Up

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

I never, nor would I, quote such a person.

Well you seem to share the same unreliable sources.

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

Your attempt to divert in your mindless devotion to the EU project has failed. You can not take it. You can not accept fact - what is evident.

Fact like the Jean Monnet "quote" you used to support your argument?

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

It's Trump like.

The irony!

Kermit.de.frog

Ignore the core meaning of the argument like all deniers do with diversion and nonsense.

Here it is again.

They don't have to order anything. No country's governor not already bankrupt will dare go against anything the Bundesbank says.

So you will get the bankrupts and near insolvents queuing up saying what the Bundesbank should do - the core countries will never do that because they know where their bread is buttered in Germany.

Spain, for example, and even worse in Italy - these countries are close to economic collapse. Italy is a time bomb (in absolute debt terms a third world country masquarading as a first world one and that is before you look at their banks) - they can't get out of it because they don't have the monetary tools.

It's a prison - what are they to do? All they can do is devalue internally through their budgets.

This is severe and leads to social disorder, chaos and deprivation.

We are forced to internally devalue through our budgets because Germany is perfectly content and won't do ANYTHING to relieve it because they profit from it through their own exports.

That's some "solidarity" eh?

But it is truth people don't want to hear.

Explain how the Bundesbank does not control the ECB....you can't!? Really!!???

Dismissed.

Harika

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ignore the core meaning of the argument like all deniers do with diversion and nonsense.

Here it is again.



Explain how the Bundesbank does not control the ECB....you can't!? Really!!???

Dismissed.

If the Bundesbank controlled the NCB the interest rates would have been raised long ago as the low ones are not beneficial for Germany. Your turn

First Up

I suspect our amphibious friend got stung in the property bubble and needs someone to blame for not bailing him out.

theological

MadYaker wrote: »

You know there’s a European Parliament right? We have elections and send MEPs every year and that’s where EU decisions are made. It’s in Brussels not Germany. I’m guessing you thought the EU was some sort of monarchy run by Germany. You must be American. You have a lot to learn about how the E.U works. Could you go into detail on how exactly it’s all going to end in tears and what difficult decisions we’ll be forced to make? Which southern countries are on their knees and what do you mean by that? Fascinating perspective but it doesn’t line up with reality.

The European Parliament is quite a weak body though. It simply accepts or rejects legislation initiated by the European Commission. It isn't a parliament in the true sense that we understand. This is a democratic deficit.

Has there ever really been a cross European demos? How engaged are people across Europe in European politics? Not very. This is why we see there is a disconnect between national and European politics in member states.

When decisions are made far away from your own country by people who are not directly accountable to you - particularly in the case of the Commission, there is going to be an obvious disconnect anyway.

The UK has only ever been a half-hearted member of the EU anyway. It only was interested in the EU for trade rather than for any of the more lofty aspects of the European project.

I think it's actually better for the EU that the UK leaves because the UK won't be holding it back in terms of what it wants. Of course it does have other problems to contend with particularly in respect to Poland and Hungary, and that's before we think of forces within member states.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ignore the core meaning of the argument like all deniers do with diversion and nonsense.

Here it is again.



Explain how the Bundesbank does not control the ECB....you can't!? Really!!???

Dismissed.

I personally don't know enough about it, like the vast majority.

What sort of policies are we talking here?

Kermit.de.frog

Deleted User wrote: »

I personally don't know enough about it, like the vast majority.

What sort of policies are we talking here?

I already explained it.

First Up

theological wrote:

The European Parliament is quite a weak body though. It simply accepts or rejects legislation initiated by the European Commission. It isn't a parliament in the true sense that we understand. This is a democratic deficit.

The "democratic deficit" gives Ireland and other small countries a seat at the table and an equal vote with the large nations. That's what a union of sovereign states means.

If it was a parliament "in the true sense" you would be accusing it of ruling over the "super state" you say the evil EU wants to become.

54and56

Kidchameleon wrote: »

What is there to prove? The EU HAS accumulated power

Nothing has been grabbed. EU member countries have democratically decided to club together for mutually beneficial reasons. No one is forcing any country to do anything it doesn't want to do. Each country, as the UK is about to demonstrate, is free to trigger an exit clause (article 50) and leave without the need to seek permission from any other members of the union.

Contrast that with Scotland's position within the Union of GB&NI. They are trapped and are not free to determine their own destiny without permission from the UK govt which is made up of 365 Tory MP's 95% of which (345) are from England.

Its ironic how the very people who engineered Brexit with messages about how the EU has too much power and it was time to take back control etc are the very same people preventing Scotland from taking back control for itself.

None are as blind as those who will not see.

First Up

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

I already explained it.

No, you just parroted some rubbish about the nasty Germans.