Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

johnnyskeleton

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They don't have to order anything. No country's governor not already bankrupt will dare go against anything the Bundesbank says.

So you will get the bankrupts and near insolvents queuing up saying what the Bundesbank should do - the core countries will never do that because they know where their bread is buttered in Germany.

The ECB was set up with a mandate to control inflation below 2%. That is undoubtedly inspired by the German experience of hyperinflation, but it is a policy that makes a lot of sense to the other Eurozone member states. Crucially, it is something that they all signed up to.

In times of crisis, many wanted to change this policy informally, and the ECB said no. There is probably no appetite for treaty change or other Council level changes to this ECB policy.

Spain, for example, and even worse in Italy - these countries are close to economic collapse. Italy is a time bomb (in absolute debt terms a third world country masquarading as a first world one and that is before you look at their banks) - they can't get out of it because they don't have the monetary tools.

They are experiencing economic difficulties, but neither Spain nor Italy are close to economic collapse. Economic collapse is usually caused when a country tried to print money to get out of their problems and ends up in an inflationary spiral. See, for example, Zimbabwe. The other major restriction imposed by Europe is the Debt:GDP and deficit rules. However, these aren't some random theory of many, but are a reflection of the reality that if any country borrows and spends too much for too long, they will end up bankrupt.

So, if Italy had control of their currency and could borrow what they like, they would either chose something similar to what they have now, or they would risk hyperinflation and default. There are nuanced positions within that e.g. borrow slightly more etc, but those are possible in the EU framework. Indeed, Italy are breaching those rules currently.

It's a prison - what are they to do? All they can do is devalue internally through their budgets.

This is severe and leads to social disorder, chaos and deprivation.

Unfortunately, social disorder chaos and deprivation are the result of years of bad economic policy. Even more unfortunately, politicians like to blame the EU instead of blaming themselves, and people lapp this up. See, for example, deprived areas of Northern England voting Tory.

We are forced to internally devalue through our budgets because Germany is perfectly content and won't do ANYTHING to relieve it because they profit from it through their own exports.

That's some "solidarity" eh?

But it is truth people don't want to hear.

As for Ireland, thank Christ we had good buddies during our crisis who, instead of plamasing us, told us we were in trouble and gave us a way out. Ireland would most likely be in a state of decline now had we not taken necessary measures

ancapailldorcha

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Quote my points. Very articulate and coherent.

The EU is German dominance by a means other than military.

I'm not going to be a parrot for deniers.

I live in the UK where I can see firsthand where people taking this silly nonsense seriously leads. Since you have no evidence, I'm not wasting any more time on this.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I live in the UK where I can see firsthand where people taking this silly nonsense seriously leads. Since you have no evidence, I'm not wasting any more time on this.

But you will. As will I.

Kermit.de.frog

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I live in the UK where I can see firsthand where people taking this silly nonsense seriously leads. Since you have no evidence, I'm not wasting any more time on this.

I have explained it coherently.

You won't waste time because you deny what is evident factual truth. Post truth world.

I can't help that.

end of the road

theological wrote: »

I didn't say that the EU wants to be a super state, so please respond to my posts rather than anyone else's.

You could ask me what I think rather than telling me what I think. I was replying to a poster who told us on this thread that the European Parliaments are where decisions are made. This isn't true. This is where decisions made by the European Commission are rubber stamped.

If there is a fear of the larger countries in the EU dominating over member states if the European Parliament had more power surely that just demonstrates that the EU is too big and has too much control over matters that should be deferred to national parliaments.

Perhaps a better model would be that legislation can be proposed to national parliaments from the European Commission and then accepted, amended, or rejected in national parliaments. Or indeed that national parliaments can propose legislation that can be considered across Europe.

The reality is that the EU doesn't want reform, it wants to stay the way it is. The UK decided that this wasn't good enough for them and they decided to leave and take back control. That's a respectable decision.

yeah, they wanted to take back control of what they already have full control of but couldn't be bothered to actually, you know, control, but instead blame everyone else for their own failings.
taking back control was just a meaningless soundbite.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Lisbon Treaty /your argument

the members voted for it.
in our case we got concessions and had to vote again as it was a different deal, i would imagine that it would probably have been found unconstitutional if we didn't and someone took a challenge.
democracy in action.

Irishmale0399

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Quote my points. Very articulate and coherent.

The EU is German dominance by a means other than military.

I'm not going to be a parrot for deniers.

If the Germans had dominance within the EU you would know all about it.


- Ireland would be flooded by refugees, who have not been vetted
- Pensioners would be lining up to get food packages
- You would be driving on the other side of the road
- You would be paying 15% of your wages on health insurance only
- 75% of the Irish population would be renting their homes
- the list goes on, go live and work in Germany and experience it



Have read many foolish comments in here but that one has to top it.

theological

Deleted User wrote: »

My post was from an Irish perspective where we have not had a Brexit, and to an Irish poster. I meant that Brexit has just entrenched a lot of the ideas regarding it and the middle ground is a bit lost.

I look forward to the UK forging forward. They have shown that it's what they want and while the future is unclear, the underlying of it unambiguous.

I am an Irish poster. We don't all think the same. I don't know where this odd idea is that all Irish people are a kind of hive mind came from.

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I have explained it coherently.

You won't waste time because you deny what is evident factual truth. Post truth world.

I can't help that.

no, we don't deny evident factual truth. we deny what looks to be nothing more then copy and paste rants from the nyjel party.

54and56

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Lisbon Treaty /your argument

Not true / your mantra.

Kermit.de.frog

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

If the Germans had dominance within the EU you would know all about it.


- Ireland would be flooded by refugees, who have not been vetted
- Pensioners would be lining up to get food packages
- You would be driving on the other side of the road
- You would be paying 15% of your wages on health insurance only
- 75% of the Irish population would be renting their homes
- the list goes on, go live and work in Germany and experience it



Have read many foolish comments in here but that one has to top it.

They don't care that we drive on the wrong side of the road.

They have ultimate control. That is all they care about.

theological

theological wrote: »

I am an Irish poster. We don't all think the same. I don't know where this odd idea is that all Irish people are a kind of hive mind came from.

My post was asking what Ireland should do. I then clarified that I was talking about Ireland.

What should be our way forward in your opinion? and Kermit since I previously asked him?

Kermit.de.frog

Deleted User wrote: »

My post was asking what Ireland should do. I then clarified that I was talking about Ireland.

What should be our way forward in your opinion? and Kermit since I previously asked him?

It's going to happen anyway.

It should happen now - we should leave the eurozone but stay in the EU.

This will be upsetting and unstable in the beginning but it will quickly settle with the new Irish currency.

We should not be afraid of doing what is right for us. If you are afraid of quitting a club than that is no club at all you should belong to.

Irishmale0399

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They don't care that we drive on the wrong side of the road.

They have ultimate control. That is all they care about.

You really dont have a clue.....the German car producers would love all the EU to drive on the same side. Reduces costs, number of production sites etc. etc.
As the German government indirectly own a large share of one of Europes biggest car producers it would be in their interests to force Ireland to change, but they havent.


As for ultimate control....please expand, will be interesting to see how you build your fantasy world together. Last time the Germans wanted ultimate control was under a certain Adolf Hitler, however even he didnt include wee Ireland in his master plan. He sent weapons to the Irish...

Kermit.de.frog

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

You really dont have a clue.....the German car producers would love all the EU to drive on the same side. Reduces costs, number of production sites etc. etc.
As the German government indirectly own a large share of one of Europes biggest car producers it would be in their interests to force Ireland to change, but they havent.


As for ultimate control....please expand, will be interesting to see how you build your fantasy world together. Last time the Germans wanted ultimate control was under a certain Adolf Hitler, however even he didnt include wee Ireland in his master plan. He sent weapons to the Irish...

Germany has ultimate control over Europe - even Britain outside the EU. Germany will control it through the EU and ECB.


That is a fact. I can't help those who ignore fact.

Irishmale0399

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Germany has ultimate control over Europe - even Britain outside the EU. Germany will control it through the EU and ECB.


That is a fact. I can't help those who ignore fact.

I think what you are trying to say is that Germany with its 80 million plus population and being one of the worlds biggest exporters, they have influence on markets. Probably more influence that Ireland with its 4 odd million population....thats a law of averages my friend.


But if it makes you feel better and you want to do your bit to fight off the might of the Germans....stop shopping at Lidl and Aldi, dont buy VW, BMW, Audi, Mini......Siemens, Neff, Bosch....you could be the next Greta.

First Up

theological wrote:

To leave the EU on January 31st and to negotiate a free trade arrangement with the EU and other countries I would have thought.

Why? Well - because the people have voted for it on 3 separate occasions now.

The only way the UK can get a free trade agreement with the EU is to join the Customs Union, comply with and enforce the EU's external trade agreements and continue to conform to EU standards. And even with all that, there will still be customs checks and queues at ports.

The last UK parliament rejected anything close to that several times on the (not unreasonable) basis that it was taking back control of sweet f.a.

So we'll see how Boris gets on with persuading the current parliament.

joseywhales

Surely having peripheral EU countries with strong economies is beneficial for an export driven economy like Germany. They would have lots of frictionless trade with rich consumers.

If Ireland had its own currency and applied quantitative easing to pay back debt, bearing in mind our currency would be openly traded in fx markets, why would anyone have confidence in the value of our tiny currency that we are so ready to dilute? I would suspect the markets would decide our currency is worthless if we immediately went about de-valuing, we could go the way of the rouble or the Argentinian peso.

theological

First Up wrote: »

The only way the UK can get a free trade agreement with the EU is to join the Customs Union, comply with and enforce the EU's external trade agreements and continue to conform to EU standards. And even with all that, there will still be customs checks and queues at ports.

The last UK parliament rejected anything close to that several times on the (not unreasonable) basis that it was taking back control of sweet f.a.

So we'll see how Boris gets on with persuading the current parliament.

The first clause in your sentence is false. Canada has a FTA with the EU and it isn't in a customs union with the EU.

Many countries across the world do FTAs with each other without harmonising tariffs.

Deleted User wrote: »

My post was asking what Ireland should do. I then clarified that I was talking about Ireland.

What should be our way forward in your opinion? and Kermit since I previously asked him?

What Ireland should do isn't hard. Stay in the EU and advocate for a good FTA with the UK because it is in Ireland's interest to do so.

First Up

theological wrote:

The first clause in your sentence is false. Canada has a FTA with the EU and it isn't in a customs union with the EU.

It isn't an FTA.

Kermit.de.frog

[QUOTE=theological;112104000[/quote]

What Ireland should do isn't hard. Stay in the EU and advocate for a good FTA with the UK because it is in Ireland's interest to do so.[/QUOTE]

Stay in the prison of the Eurozone? lol

You are indoctrinated - fact means nothing. I could say Germany runs the EU and that the EU is German expansion by other means and you would automatically say no. It's amazing what Germany has achieved.

To indoctrinate so many and to have fooled so many across the contintent is an AMAZING achievement.

It won't last and that is when Germany goes to war again.

weldoninhio

54and56 wrote: »

Nothing has been grabbed. EU member countries have democratically decided to club together for mutually beneficial reasons. No one is forcing any country to do anything it doesn't want to do. Each country, as the UK is about to demonstrate, is free to trigger an exit clause (article 50) and leave without the need to seek permission from any other members of the union.

Contrast that with Scotland's position within the Union of GB&NI. They are trapped and are not free to determine their own destiny without permission from the UK govt which is made up of 365 Tory MP's 95% of which (345) are from England.

Its ironic how the very people who engineered Brexit with messages about how the EU has too much power and it was time to take back control etc are the very same people preventing Scotland from taking back control for itself.

None are as blind as those who will not see.

Yes, democratically. And if you don’t vote the way Europe wants you get to democratically vote again until you do. They’ve done it twice in Ireland and tried to force a second EU ref in the U.K.

FrancieBrady

weldoninhio wrote: »

Yes, democratically. And if you don’t vote the way Europe wants you get to democratically vote again until you do. They’ve done it twice in Ireland and tried to force a second EU ref in the U.K.

It was 'forces' within Ireland who wanted those referendums passed. It was they who went back to Europe and sought clarifications and it was they who decided perfectly democratically to run the referendums by an electorate completely free to turn them down again.

Who were those 'forces'? - the 'elected' government.

weldoninhio

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was 'forces' within Ireland who wanted those referendums passed. It was they who went back to Europe and sought clarifications and it was they who decided perfectly democratically to run the referendums by an electorate completely free to turn them down again.

Who were those 'forces'? - the 'elected' government.

It was the EU that got us to vote again. It may have been Irish ministers who were “briefed” by the EU calling for it, but they got their orders from the EU.

First Up

weldoninhio wrote:

It was the EU that got us to vote again. It may have been Irish ministers who were “briefed†by the EU calling for it, but they got their orders from the EU.

Who ordered the electorate?

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Stay in the prison of the Eurozone? lol

You are indoctrinated - fact means nothing. I could say Germany runs the EU and that the EU is German expansion by other means and you would automatically say no. It's amazing what Germany has achieved.

To indoctrinate so many and to have fooled so many across the contintent is an AMAZING achievement.

It won't last and that is when Germany goes to war again.

A lot of your posts took the piss out of the likes of crypto and others for saying similar to the above, now your posting the same ****e as they did without backing it up, what's the word to describe this behavior again?

FrancieBrady

weldoninhio wrote: »

It was the EU that got us to vote again. It may have been Irish ministers who were “briefed” by the EU calling for it, but they got their orders from the EU.

Dear god, this bull**** again.


Would you make a New Year's resolution to inform yourself?

Here is contemporary reporting of what was ACTUALLY happening.

Martin said that if the government was satisfied with the guarantees being discussed “we are prepared to put it to the electorate”, referring implicitly to a second referendum.

The foreign minister said that Ireland’s decision to accept or reject the treaty amounts to a choice over its role in the EU. “Over time we can become a bit more marginalised or be at the centre, building up influence,” he said.

https://www.politico.eu/article/irish-secure-concessions-on-lisbon-treaty/

there is also much more detailed accounts. You will probably bounce back with a 'fake news' riposte. :rolleyes:

Kermit.de.frog

DubInMeath wrote: »

A lot of your posts took the piss out of the likes of crypto and others for saying similar to the above, now your posting the same ****e as they did without backing it up, what's the word to describe this behavior again?

I did back it up.

Go back and read my posts - I understand this requires an intellectual capacity that may or may not be beyond you.

I'm not parroting what has already been successfully put across.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I did back it up.

Go back and read my posts - I understand this requires an intellectual capacity that may or may not be beyond you.

I'm not parroting what has already been successfully put across.

I have and they are as stated, maybe try to remember what bs your posting.

joseywhales

You did not explicitly lay out the assumptions that you are asserting as 'fact' for which you built you case on.

Stating that x is fact is not proving it.

Kermit.de.frog

DubInMeath wrote: »

I have and they are as stated, maybe try to remember what bs your posting.

What do you take issue with?

Please quote.