Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

end of the road

Kidchameleon wrote: »

European aid to be cut by 50% to 3.8bn whilst defence r&d to be increased to 13bn. The EU commissions reason is that the budget needs to be "tightened up" post Brexit. I thought the EU didnt need Britain? I thought they would not notice the Brits were gone?????

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/29/eu-accused-of-seeking-to-cut-funds-for-poor-in-post-brexit-cost-savings

Absolute SCUMMY move on the part of the EU if true... Making the blocks poorest people pay for increased militarization by starving them. But yes, they care about EU citizens dont they...

ultimately they don't need britain.
britain is nice to have but the world won't stop for the european union because britain is no longer a part. it will be a bit of a nucense but nothing more.
an increase in the defense budget is probably needed, the nature of security issues and potential warfare has changed, ciber attacks by foreign countries are an absolutely massive potential threat.

Padre_Pio

Kidchameleon wrote: »

European aid to be cut by 50% to 3.8bn whilst defence r&d to be increased to 13bn. The EU commissions reason is that the budget needs to be "tightened up" post Brexit. I thought the EU didnt need Britain? I thought they would not notice the Brits were gone?????

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/29/eu-accused-of-seeking-to-cut-funds-for-poor-in-post-brexit-cost-savings

Absolute SCUMMY move on the part of the EU if true... Making the blocks poorest people pay for increased militarization by starving them. But yes, they care about EU citizens dont they...

Both of those statements are proposals made by different people at different times. Nothing has been set. It's Christmas, nobody is legislating anything right now.

Donald Trump

Kidchameleon wrote: »

European aid to be cut by 50% to 3.8bn whilst defence r&d to be increased to 13bn. The EU commissions reason is that the budget needs to be "tightened up" post Brexit. I thought the EU didnt need Britain? I thought they would not notice the Brits were gone?????

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/29/eu-accused-of-seeking-to-cut-funds-for-poor-in-post-brexit-cost-savings

Absolute SCUMMY move on the part of the EU if true... Making the blocks poorest people pay for increased militarization by starving them. But yes, they care about EU citizens dont they...

I find it a bit curious that a proponent of Brexit would be moaning about someone proposing a cut to EU supports for poorer countries by 50%...............when one of the big motivations (350 million a week bus anyone??) for Brexit was that any money at all was being sent from the UK to them. The UK (if they ever grow the balls to fuck off and leave) will cut their contributions to zero.

I'd say it's even more SCUMMY to try to renege on commitments (39 bn anyone) and then have the nerve to try to think they are entitled to have access to markets that others are investing in building up.

ancapailldorcha

Kidchameleon wrote: »

European aid to be cut by 50% to 3.8bn whilst defence r&d to be increased to 13bn. The EU commissions reason is that the budget needs to be "tightened up" post Brexit. I thought the EU didnt need Britain? I thought they would not notice the Brits were gone?????

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/29/eu-accused-of-seeking-to-cut-funds-for-poor-in-post-brexit-cost-savings

Absolute SCUMMY move on the part of the EU if true... Making the blocks poorest people pay for increased militarization by starving them. But yes, they care about EU citizens dont they...

Brexiters don't care about poor people. If they did, they wouldn't be Brexiters.

Beasty

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Brexiters don't care about poor people. If they did, they wouldn't be Brexiters.

I would disagree with this. A lot of Brexiteers are from the labour heartlands, and I suspect there were many poorer people who wanted Brexit as they thought it may create new opportunities. Alternatively it was a way of sticking 2 fingers up at what they considered the "establishment". I suspect some even believed it would have a negative impact long-term, but were happy in the knowledge that "middle England" would probably suffer most and their own lots could not get much worse.

Unfortunately the many from the right wing who wanted it really care little about those from the other end of the political spectrum beyond saying the right things to keep them onside until Brexit is delivered

I suspect those poor people who wanted it will be largely forgotten about when the dust finally settles, but the the whole Brexit agenda was originally driven by an unholy left/right alliance, with the right ultimately pulling the important strings

mattser

Beasty wrote: »

I would disagree with this. A lot of Brexiteers are from the labour heartlands, and I suspect there were many poorer people who wanted Brexit as they thought it may create new opportunities. Alternatively it was a way of sticking 2 fingers up at what they considered the "establishment". I suspect some even believed it would have a negative impact long-term, but were happy in the knowledge that "middle England" would probably suffer most and their own lots could not get much worse.

Unfortunately the many from the right wing who wanted it really care little about those from the other end of the political spectrum beyond saying the right things to keep them onside until Brexit is delivered

I suspect those poor people who wanted it will be largely forgotten about when the dust finally settles, but the the whole Brexit agenda was originally driven by an unholy left/right alliance, with the right ultimately pulling the important strings

Proper post from a VERY respected Boards Mod who doesn't run with the mob.

cryptocurrency

Padre_Pio wrote: »

There is no chance of a no deal.
That's totally off the table now Boris has a majority.

It's a total win for the EU. A hard border in Ireland was a huge point of contention and now it's solved in our favour.

So now it's Brexit for 3/4 of the UK

Do you have any idea what has gone on. The lefty media tried to claim some sort of win by saying Boris majority means he can now screw over the electorate. Do you have any idea about the shift that has been made in UK politics, do you have any? The BBC or RTE don't. The tories know the urban latte sipping classes are gone for ever and their new votes are those outside the M25 and the north. They know meeting the promises to the north is a matter of survival. This isn't the win the beeb or RTE wish it to be and in fact an utter disaster for them...time will tell for them.

The real ditch for Boris is to screw over the working class on this topic, that's how strong the topic is. UK must leave Europe and leave bullishly.

cryptocurrency

SantaCruz wrote: »

I'm running out of sighs and facepalms for you.

You've just discovered the principle of countries moving up the value chain, and emerging markets?

And yet you still don't understand the irrelevance to the wealthiest parts of the world if the rest of the planet is finally making up lost ground? I'm sure the Swiss were sh!tting bricks in the 1990s when we finally started catching up on them because...uh...because...

Remarkable.

Waffle

cryptocurrency

SantaCruz wrote: »

I currently work for a company that established EMEA HQ in Irish city - moved from London due to Brexit. Now 100 people in highly-paid roles there. We'll probably scale 1.5X p/a for the next 5 years. And I guarantee you've never heard of us.

Just one example.

Really, we'll done them. The reality is the numbers have been a joke, and the supply of empty new offices are plane for all to see.

10000maniacs

mattser wrote: »

Proper post from a VERY respected Boards Mod who doesn't run with the mob.

I don't agree though. It was the immigtation bit of Brexit that swung it in most Northern constituencies. Anything else in the Brexit manifesto went over their heads. Incidently it went over the heads of most of the Tory party. Rabb, Davis, Patel and Truss have all shown their lack of knowledge on anything Brexit.
The only thing sustaining the Tories is a wave of right wing populism and the political polarisation delivered by the 2016 referendum.
They are going to start by ripping apart the NHS and work their way through everything else that does not respond to the "jump" command with "how high". Like the BBC.

cryptocurrency

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Outside the Shires, the UK is quite a bleak place apart from a few pockets of affluence. I do realise there is poverty in the Shires/SE but it is basically the region from which Brexit will be designed and signed off for.

Gawd help those outside of that bubble who voted Tory (or loaned their vote) in order to see some improvement in their lifestyles. I know it was Hobson's Choice, either a Communist momentum run idealistic Labour or the Tory toffs.

I am just musing here, as I too am interested to see how this all pans out.

Deal on time and on budget?
Further extension?
No Deal and crash out?
Fudge and bluster?

I hope those who voted for Brexit will be alive to see the benefits, because I really do think many in the UK need hope for the future. Best of luck to them.

Brexit is the most exciting opportunity to happen to all of us and the western world in my lifetime. More fool you if tiy are either not excited or not placed to enjoy this upcoming journey. You won't have the opportunity being a doormat elsewhere

cryptocurrency

Beasty wrote: »

I would disagree with this. A lot of Brexiteers are from the labour heartlands, and I suspect there were many poorer people who wanted Brexit as they thought it may create new opportunities. Alternatively it was a way of sticking 2 fingers up at what they considered the "establishment". I suspect some even believed it would have a negative impact long-term, but were happy in the knowledge that "middle England" would probably suffer most and their own lots could not get much worse.

Unfortunately the many from the right wing who wanted it really care little about those from the other end of the political spectrum beyond saying the right things to keep them onside until Brexit is delivered

I suspect those poor people who wanted it will be largely forgotten about when the dust finally settles, but the the whole Brexit agenda was originally driven by an unholy left/right alliance, with the right ultimately pulling the important strings

Not at all. Every brexit fan i know is substantially more asset rich and liquid rich then any remainer. Maybe we just associate the remainer with the angry and self entitled left. I have never met a EU lover who wasn't exposed as a socialist under pressure.

As for the working class north..they have shot up in my estimation. They have no aspirations like the left or the EU want to be dependent and helped. They want to be free and aspirational..They don't want social programmes, they want opportunity to succeed and create wealth.

UK will fly post brexit, fly..and you know why..in may ways those dirty working class northerners remainers despise..they refuse it lie down anymore.

So as someone who never grew up in the north or didn't see hardship, i see now a common bond between the free market lovers and the frustrated and untaped resources of the northern talent pool.

This is happening lads, and the results for the UK will be spectacular. The heartbreak it will call the femboy remainers is gonna be glorious. This is happening lads, suck it up.

Padre_Pio

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Not at all. Every brexit fan i know is substantially more asset rich and liquid rich then any remainer. Maybe we just associate the remainer with the angry and self entitled left. I have never met a EU lover who wasn't exposed as a socialist under pressure.

Pure conjecture.

As for the working class north..they have shot up in my estimation. They have no aspirations like the left or the EU want to be dependent and helped. They want to be free and aspirational..They don't want social programmes, they want opportunity to succeed and create wealth.

So what? 2 years ago they voted the other way. In two years time they could be back again if Labour gets a proper leader. They voted for the party they hate the least.

UK will fly post brexit, fly..and you know why..in may ways those dirty working class northerners remainers despise..they refuse it lie down anymore.

Where's the proof of this? Nowhere. There is no study, poll, or evidence that shows this to be true, save those from right wing think tanks.

So as someone who never grew up in the north or didn't see hardship, i see now a common bond between the free market lovers and the frustrated and untaped resources of the northern talent pool.

Bollocks

This is happening lads, and the results for the UK will be spectacular. The heartbreak it will call the femboy remainers is gonna be glorious. This is happening lads, suck it up.

Where will it happen? Why will it happen? What in the past has shown the future will be this way?

SantaCruz

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Brexit is the most exciting opportunity to happen to all of us and the western world in my lifetime. More fool you if tiy are either not excited or not placed to enjoy this upcoming journey. You won't have the opportunity being a doormat elsewhere

I presume you will be moving back to your wonderful homeland to take full advantage then?

Or are you a hypocrite who is happy to let others jump off the cliff to see if they can survive the fall first?

I'm guessing that, given your well established real-life Ron Burgundy persona, you're all talk and no action.

SantaCruz

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Really, we'll done them. The reality is the numbers have been a joke, and the supply of empty new offices are plane for all to see.

The reality is the numbers have made a material difference to Ireland, and more highly paid jobs will be leaving the UK (or more likely, as in my case, new roles that would have gone there will go elsewhere).

Oh, and on a point of information Ron - they don't build offices that are full of people. They are always empty as they are built. HTH.

ancapailldorcha

Beasty wrote: »

I would disagree with this. A lot of Brexiteers are from the labour heartlands, and I suspect there were many poorer people who wanted Brexit as they thought it may create new opportunities. Alternatively it was a way of sticking 2 fingers up at what they considered the "establishment". I suspect some even believed it would have a negative impact long-term, but were happy in the knowledge that "middle England" would probably suffer most and their own lots could not get much worse.

Unfortunately the many from the right wing who wanted it really care little about those from the other end of the political spectrum beyond saying the right things to keep them onside until Brexit is delivered

I suspect those poor people who wanted it will be largely forgotten about when the dust finally settles, but the the whole Brexit agenda was originally driven by an unholy left/right alliance, with the right ultimately pulling the important strings

When I said "Brexiter", I meant the people actively arguing for it and continually defending it as opposed to people who just bought into the propaganda/saw opportunities for themselves and their communities/just wanted to flip off the austerity government of the day.

The poor people who want it have already been forgotten about in my opinion. We can see that in the completely abandonment of the pretence that Brexit will benefit the UK. Now, it's some sort of perverse national duty to be done as quickly as possible. More ripping off a plaster than fundamentally changing things for the better.

Snickers Man

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Others may live in a post fact world - I don't. This is fact, not fiction.........


And it is the reason our countries were asset stripped and bankrupted during the crash because in large part we could not devalue a currency of our own nor control interest rates.

We don't have that basic tool any sovereign country has.

When did we ever?

When we became "independent" of Britain, we might have had a different design on our bank notes but our currency was pegged to Sterling. We didn't set our own exchange rate, or have the means to alter it. That was effectively set in London. That remained the position until the European Monetary System (EMS) was introduced in the late 1970s. We went in; Britain stayed out.

At that point the Irish pound floated against Sterling but the Exchange Rate Mechanism, part of the EMS, effectively limited the extent to which Ireland could permit its currency to float on international markets. Participating governments were required to intervene, either to purchase or sell their currencies if they threatened to fall below an agreed floor or rise through an agreed ceiling. This was intended to stabilise currency fluctuations in preparation for the introduction of the euro.

Britain temporarily joined the EMS but came under huge pressure from speculators (especially one George Soros) who felt that their currency valuation was unsustainable and that the government/central bank would not be able to maintain the level it sought. That culminated in Black Wednesday (September 16th 1992) in which the British government finally admitted defeat and withdrew from the EMS. (I remember it well )

We have always effectively pegged our currency to a larger one, either at a fixed rate (sterling) or within a tightly controlled limit of fluctuations (EMS/Euro). So if you really want to portray yourself as someone who refuses to "live in a post fact world" then state the facts correctly.

We have a choice of which currency we can align ourselves to: the euro or sterling. Which has served us better, or at least, caused us less harm?

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

One can understand the faults of the EU and yet also understand the benefits belonging to the EU group too.

It isn't binary.

A situation that a lot of the low power "thinkers" continually fail to grasp.

Could you explain what you mean by a low power thinker? Corbyn is a brexiteer, I don’t think anyone believes otherwise.

There are a lot of people who consider the Eu to be a capitalist conspiracy to drive workers costs lower and to facilitate tax evasion for the globalist multinational corporations. Just take a look at hi you actually pay money to when you buy a Chinese made product from Amazon.

SantaCruz

Aegir wrote: »

There are a lot of people who consider the Eu to be a capitalist conspiracy to drive workers costs lower and to facilitate tax evasion for the globalist multinational corporations. Just take a look at hi you actually pay money to when you buy a Chinese made product from Amazon.

You might also consider who you paid money to for foreign-made products before the EU existed.

Tony EH

Aegir wrote: »

Could you explain what you mean by a low power thinker? Corbyn is a brexiteer, I don’t think anyone believes otherwise.

Clowns that cannot think with any kind of complexity about a given situation and would rather just see some sort of "win" for their "team" at any and all costs and who are more prone to just putting people into one of two camps without trying to understand the intricate grey areas of a particular position.

As for Corbyn, he understood leaving and was a mild "Euro sceptic". A position he has held in one form or another since 1973. The Neo-liberal model that the European Union has morphed into, in many ways, goes against Corbyn's Democratic Socialist beliefs and he has some healthy reservations about it. In fact, most people on the Left feel that way about EU, despite how much those on the Right wish to strawman. However, Jeremy Corbyn also understood the benefits of remaining within the EU and also understood that simply upping and crashing out is absolutely not to any ordinary person's advantage in the UK. Unlike a lot of the ra ra crowd on the right, who cannot and will not even try see to anything but they're own blinkered tunnel vision and who fool themselves (and others) with fantasies about sunlit uplands and whatnot by breaking away from the "tyranny" of Europe.

The issue is deep, wide and unwritten and those who are the most for leaving are those who won't be affected if it turns out to be an economic disaster. The likes of Jacob Reece Moog has nothing to worry about, while Joe Bloggs may end up losing his job and his house...

...which can then be bought up by the same disaster capitalists who were so in favour of Brexit in the first place.

Aegir wrote: »

There are a lot of people who consider the Eu to be a capitalist conspiracy to drive workers costs lower and to facilitate tax evasion for the globalist multinational corporations. Just take a look at hi you actually pay money to when you buy a Chinese made product from Amazon.

The "Capitalist conspiracy", if such a thing exists, is coming from the Right in Britain, where Oligarchs and business classes are eager to see the end of EU business regulations on the likes of safety and workers rights and who are more interested in driving down working conditions and pay. The EU has actually been setting its sights on tax dodging multi nationals and debating the likes of gig economies recently, which has a lot of anarcho-capitalist fair weather libertarians in England worrying.

It's really an epic level of self delusion to think that the situation is somehow reversed.

The EU has a lot of serious issues and you'll find few people who have absolutely no problem with it in any way. However, it is foolish in the extreme to believe that the likes of Boris Johnson, Jacob Reece Mogg or Nigel Farage has the interests of the common man at heart when they are talking about leaving a club that has benefited many, many people in Britain for a long time and thrusting the UK into completely unforeseen territory based on a tissue of lies that claims that everything will just work out fine.

All without any kind of plan or realistic projections whatsoever.

Tony EH

SantaCruz wrote: »

You might also consider who you paid money to for foreign-made products before the EU existed.

Not only that, there was immigration too and will be after Brexit. So anyone voting for that reason, and there those who did, is going to be sorely disappointed. All those cheap labour brown people are still going to be coming to their shores...

...just like they've always done throughout the 20th Century.

Kidchameleon

Exactly the responses I expected. The EU cuts aid and spends it on their army - "its all Brexits fault"

Beasty

cryptocurrency wrote: »

So as someone who never grew up in the north or didn't see hardship, i see now a common bond between the free market lovers and the frustrated and untaped resources of the northern talent pool.

Just to be clear, I was born in a Council House and brought up within a working class family in North East England (my dad was earning £7 per week on a farm when I was born). I went to University in Manchester. I worked in the North of England for 25 years. I have family members who were strong Brexit proponents (equally I have others who had a better idea of the chaos that would ensue)

I do feel I have some empathy with the Northern regions and it's inhabitants

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Exactly the responses I expected. The EU cuts aid and spends it on their army - "its all Brexits fault"

Somebody has accused the EU of cutting aid, is what that story actually says. The EU has actually put the onus on individual governments to replace that aid as it takes the initial hit of Brexit.
It hasn't 'ordered' them though.

I think if the UK are going to exit, we in the EU should seek to look after our own defence independent of the US, UK and NATO tbh.

I am no fan of armies and ridiculous arms races but I would rather we control it.

I honestly don't see why the idea of an EU army is so anathema to people.. It seems pretty logical to me with some NATO countries looking more inward.

Ireland has enjoyed its position between these two countries for so long. What exactly would be so bad about Irish troops training with other countries. I certainly don't think they'd be going on aggressive campaigns.. It's more about Russia and a collective show of strength.

I don't buy the lack of sovereignty argument.

cryptocurrency

Deleted User wrote: »

I honestly don't see why the idea of an EU army is so anathema to people.. It seems pretty logical to me with some NATO countries looking more inward.

Ireland has enjoyed its position between these two countries for so long. What exactly would be so bad about Irish troops training with other countries. I certainly don't think they'd be going on aggressive campaigns.. It's more about Russia and a collective show of strength.

I don't buy the lack of sovereignty argument.

and EU army will have to remain in the pocket of the US/UK/Nato or it will be dismatled by them. The nations that would make up a EU army are just tin pot nations and will not be allowed to ever be an army of note with an opinion that differs from the big western powers.

cryptocurrency

cryptocurrency wrote: »

and EU army will have to remain in the pocket of the US/UK/Nato or it will be dismatled by them. The nations that would make up a EU army are just tin pot nations and will not be allowed to ever be an army of note with an opinion that differs from the big western powers.

Your reasoning against it is that there is no point in trying as the US and UK already exist and are militarily powerful? Surely not trying just makes that even more the case.

I'm surprised to see such a low testosterone doormat femboy reason from you.

KildareP

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Exactly the responses I expected. The EU cuts aid and spends it on their army - "its all Brexits fault"

Hey, if the UK can blame the EU for all its decades of woe, surely the EU can use the UK as a scapegoat for the odd thing or two, no?

KildareP

cryptocurrency wrote: »

and EU army will have to remain in the pocket of the US/UK/Nato or it will be dismatled by them. The nations that would make up a EU army are just tin pot nations and will not be allowed to ever be an army of note with an opinion that differs from the big western powers.

More delusion and double-speak.

UK doesn’t need the EU for anything and won’t take any instruction from them and everything will be rosy in the garden as they go it alone.

But the EU *must* be subservient to the UK within Nato or else the consequences will be grave and the EU will fall apart.

Who will look more tin-pot, a union of 27 countries of relative unity, or a union that has one nation scrambling to get out and another deeply divided as to which union it wants to be in?

Your arguments and logic become more delusional and twisted by the hour, never mind the day.

cryptocurrency

Deleted User wrote: »

Your reasoning against it is that there is no point in trying as the US and UK already exist and are militarily powerful? Surely not trying just makes that even more the case.

I'm surprised to see such a low testosterone doormat femboy reason from you.

I never said they should not try. just don't be surprised if it is never allowed to become more then some token army.