Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

woohoo!!!

alastair wrote: »

The EU have their strategy. He wasn’t commenting on that at all. He was giving his honest opinion on what would best serve the PM’s position. As he’s entitled to, same as the rest of us.

Which as he knows full well will be used against him, so why go there?

Eric Cartman

davedanon wrote: »

So, lots of examples, which you can cite? Please do.

And, sorry, 'reports of extending deadlines'? What exactly does that even mean?

Please cite some specific examples.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-threat-to-block-city-trade-unless-uk-agrees-to-europes-rules-fpj75qq6m

Brussels will threaten to block the City of London’s access to European markets in an opening salvo of post-Brexit trade talks in the new year.

EU chiefs will also warn Downing Street that they could put up barriers to data flows vital to British commerce.

https://www.ft.com/content/a8f46a2c-b111-11e9-8cb2-799a3a8cf37b

the European Commission will deem that Canada, Brazil, Singapore, Argentina and Australia no longer regulate credit rating agencies as rigorously as the EU does, removing a status that made it possible for European banks to rely on those ratings.

Imreoir2

woohoo!!! wrote: »

He should keep his mouth shut and stick to the job. By all means have scenarios worked out but keep it internal.

As for a politician being honest, good one.

Why exactly should the EU fear to speak the truth? Is it too much for the British government to handle? The EU should call a spade a spade, they have a responsibility to set the tone and let business and society know what to expect. Mr Hogans assessment seems reasonable and fair to me, why should he try to hide the truth of the situation as he sees it?

alastair

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Which as he knows full well will be used against him, so why go there?

How is any of that ‘used against him’?

Imreoir2

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Which as he knows full well will be used against him, so why go there?

How will it be used against him? As far as I can see it can only be used by UK polititions and Brexiteer media to moan about the EU. Why should Mr Hogan care about that?

alastair

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-threat-to-block-city-trade-unless-uk-agrees-to-europes-rules-fpj75qq6m





https://www.ft.com/content/a8f46a2c-b111-11e9-8cb2-799a3a8cf37b

Doesn’t that all look like post-Brexit scenarios?

johnnyskeleton

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Parliament wouldn't let them leave. The UK would leave no dela but theyr will be a deal.

No deal is a disaster for the EU. I think the UK should go no deal adn slash everything so tariffs don't matter.

If Britain entered the WA agreement as is, i.e. with the frontstop for NI, then left the transition period with no deal, then unilaterally slashed all its tarriffs down to 0, that would be absolutely amazing. Do you think they might do that? Ireland would boom like never before as we can trade into the Uk tarriff free while protecting our own market and the single island economy

woohoo!!!

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Why exactly should the EU fear to speak the truth? Is it too much for the British government to handle? The EU should call a spade a spade, they have a responsibility to set the tone and let business and society know what to expect. Mr Hogans assessment seems reasonable and fair to me, why should he try to hide the truth of the situation as he sees it?

Until the UK sets out it's stall, all this commentary is based on assumptions. Depending on the complexity of the agreed deal, we don't know how long roughly the negotiations will take. Johnson has hinted at divergence and a bare bones deal which would be consistent with a shorter time frame. Therefore EU leaders and Commissioners should confine themselves to actual known facts and not wishing for something that the Johnson government has given no hint on.

If he later on asks for an extension or it's clear that a longer negotiation time is required, then comment on it. All this right now is just useless speculation, and imo best to stay clear.

woohoo!!!

Imreoir2 wrote: »

How will it be used against him? As far as I can see it can only be used by UK polititions and Brexiteer media to moan about the EU. Why should Mr Hogan care about that?

Hogan has a history of pig headedness that has not served him well in the past. By all means be tough in negotiations, but save the advice for PMs of exiting countries.

alastair

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Until the UK sets out it's stall, all this commentary is based on assumptions. Depending on the complexity of the agreed deal, we don't know how long roughly the negotiations will take. Johnson has hinted at divergence and a bare bones deal which would be consistent with a shorter time frame. Therefore EU leaders and Commissioners should confine themselves to actual known facts and not wishing for something that the Johnson government has given no hint on.

If he later on asks for an extension or it's clear that a longer negotiation time is required, then comment on it. All this right now is just useless speculation, and imo best to stay clear.

Johnson has hinted at having cake and eating it. Nobody should take Johnson seriously on anything he might hint at. The actual facts are that trade deals take longer than 11 months - no matter who hints what and when.

alastair

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Hogan has a history of pig headedness that has not served him well in the past. By all means be tough in negotiations, but save the advice for PMs of exiting countries.

Hogan seems to be doing well for a man who hasn’t served himself well.

Imreoir2

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Until the UK sets out it's stall, all this commentary is based on assumptions. Depending on the complexity of the agreed deal, we don't know how long roughly the negotiations will take. Johnson has hinted at divergence and a bare bones deal which would be consistent with a shorter time frame. Therefore EU leaders and Commissioners should confine themselves to actual known facts and not wishing for something that the Johnson government has given no hint on.

If he later on asks for an extension or it's clear that a longer negotiation time is required, then comment on it. All this right now is just useless speculation, and imo best to stay clear.

Sorry, but you are wrong. A bare bones deal will take longer to work out. The greater the divergance from the status quo, the more complex and difficult the deal becomes. If the UK wanted to stay in the CU and SM and follow EU rules then a deal could be done very easily. Anything that sees the UK diverge to any sgnificant degree from the EU will be a long and hard set of negiotiations that have no hope of being concluded before the end of the year.

Divergance is what the Johnson government has said it wants, and as such Mr Hogan is entirely corret in his assessment as far as I am concerned.

You are entitled to air your opinion, as indeed is Mr Hogan, and I am going to bet that he has a lot more experience than you.

ancapailldorcha

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-threat-to-block-city-trade-unless-uk-agrees-to-europes-rules-fpj75qq6m





https://www.ft.com/content/a8f46a2c-b111-11e9-8cb2-799a3a8cf37b

I don't see what the issue is. It's basically what the British were threatening when they were stamping their feet about WTO terms.

woohoo!!!

alastair wrote: »

Johnson has hinted at having cake and eating it. Nobody should take Johnson seriously on anything he might hint at. The actual facts are that trade deals take longer than 11 months - no matter who hints what and when.

I'm afraid that Johnson and his large majority do have to be taken seriously as do whatever they set out. The EU negotiators have proven themselves very capable to date, and will counter any cakeism. Once a deal is agreed, who cares what Johnson claims about length of time or whatever (for domestic purposes), just stay out of it.

woohoo!!!

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Sorry, but you are wrong. A bare bones deal will take longer to work out. The greater the divergance from the status quo, the more complex and difficult the deal becomes. If the UK wanted to stay in the CU and SM and follow EU rules then a deal could be done very easily. Anything that sees the UK diverge to any sgnificant degree from the EU will be a long and hard set of negiotiations that have no hope of being concluded before the end of the year.

Divergance is what the Johnson government has said it wants, and as such Mr Hogan is entirely corret in his assessment as far as I am concerned.

You are entitled to air your opinion, as indeed is Mr Hogan, and I am going to bet that he has a lot more experience than you.

It costs nothing to let Johnson do all the running and hang himself in public with these cakeism stunts. Let him off claiming his little victories, the EU will only agree to what suits it's members. The shouting and screeching is just an empty vessel, I wouldn't advise it on the time of day

Imreoir2

woohoo!!! wrote: »

I'm afraid that Johnson and his large majority do have to be taken seriously as do whatever they set out. The EU negotiators have proven themselves very capable to date, and will counter any cakeism. Once a deal is agreed, who cares what Johnson claims about length of time or whatever (for domestic purposes), just stay out of it.

You are correct, EU negotiators have proven very capable to date and that included being transparent in their dealings. The UK were constantly complaining of "leaks" from the EU and yet EU transparency in their dealings has not harmed them at all. There is infact a strong case to be made that bursting your opponents balloon, not allowing them to dominate the perception of what is going on by failing to challenge the narratives they put out is an important part of effective negiotating.

There is no reason for Mr Hogan to fear speaking the truth. Remaining quiet and allowing the UK government to spin false naratives about deals being done quickly will not aid him in any way as far as I can see.

woohoo!!!

alastair wrote: »

Hogan seems to be doing well for a man who hasn’t served himself well.

Hogan made an absolute pigs ear with Irish Water, took a hatchet to local government and got the FG nomination as commissioner to get him out of the way. With his EPP buddies, he's held onto the commissioner job. I remain to be convinced about what he actually achieves, rather than what has been handed to him on a plate.

With this in mind, he really should keep his mouth shut rather than acting the big man rubbish.

woohoo!!!

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You are correct, EU negotiators have proven very capable to date and that included being transparent in their dealings. The UK were constantly complaining of "leaks" from the EU and yet EU transparency in their dealings has not harmed them at all. There is infact a strong case to be made that bursting your opponents balloon, not allowing them to dominate the perception of what is going on by failing to challenge the narratives they put out is an important part of effective negiotating.

There is no reason for Mr Hogan to fear speaking the truth. Remaining quiet and allowing the UK government to spin false naratives about deals being done quickly will not aid him in any way as far as I can see.

I largely agree. But right now there's no negogiations, just idle speculation. In any event I've laid out my view and reasoning so will leave it there.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

Clowns that cannot think with any kind of complexity about a given situation and would rather just see some sort of "win" for their "team" at any and all costs and who are more prone to just putting people into one of two camps without trying to understand the intricate grey areas of a particular position.

this has to be one of the most ironic posts ever in the history of boards!

so, for example someone who thinks that a vote for leave was a racist vote? would that be a good example of a low power thinker?

Tony EH wrote: »

As for Corbyn, he understood leaving and was a mild "Euro sceptic". A position he has held in one form or another since 1973. The Neo-liberal model that the European Union has morphed into, in many ways, goes against Corbyn's Democratic Socialist beliefs and he has some healthy reservations about it. In fact, most people on the Left feel that way about EU, despite how much those on the Right wish to strawman. However, Jeremy Corbyn also understood the benefits of remaining within the EU and also understood that simply upping and crashing out is absolutely not to any ordinary person's advantage in the UK. Unlike a lot of the ra ra crowd on the right, who cannot and will not even try see to anything but they're own blinkered tunnel vision and who fool themselves (and others) with fantasies about sunlit uplands and whatnot by breaking away from the "tyranny" of Europe.

that looks like another excellent example of low power thinking.

Tony EH wrote: »

The "Capitalist conspiracy", if such a thing exists, is coming from the Right in Britain, where Oligarchs and business classes are eager to see the end of EU business regulations on the likes of safety and workers rights and who are more interested in driving down working conditions and pay. The EU has actually been setting its sights on tax dodging multi nationals and debating the likes of gig economies recently, which has a lot of anarcho-capitalist fair weather libertarians in England worrying.

this would be the EU who elected one of the architects of tax evasion as president of the EU commission?

Tony EH

Aegir wrote: »

this has to be one of the most ironic posts ever in the history of boards!

so, for example someone who thinks that a vote for leave was a racist vote?

Guess again genius. :rolleyes:

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

Guess again genius. :rolleyes:

Brilliant answer. Well done.

Tony EH

Aegir wrote: »

Brilliant answer. Well done.

You've already been answered once. The content of which you were, evidently, unable to grasp.

Well done you.

Donald Trump

cryptocurrency wrote: »

How do you keeping believing in an institution that never does anything.

Germany at the nato by the way, is there making up numbers.

Percentage of NATO budget contributed by different countries:
22.14%
14.65%
10.63%
9.84%

The countries paying those amounts are, respectively:
USA
Germany
France
UK

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

You've already been answered once. The content of which you were, evidently, unable to grasp.

Well done you.

You have a very ironic answer and compounded it.

It is typical of the blinkered echo chamber that surrounds any discussion on Brexit on Boards.

Any challenge to that is countered with ad hominem, as you have demonstrated twice now.

The view in here that Brexit is due to either racism or greed is simplistic. The fact that people like Jeremy Corbyn are pro leaving the Eu demonstrates this perfectly. I know any criticism of Corbyn and challenging the generally accepted argument on Brexit is an anathema to some people, but those are the simple facts of the matter.

cryptocurrency

Imreoir2 wrote: »

A fig leaf was all it took?
NI will be following the rules of the EU CU&SM for years and years to come. There will a border in the Irish sea, loyalists are calling it an effective economic United Ireland. But a small face saving technicality is all it takes for you to swallow it?

Must be nice for Mr Johnson to have such sicophants ready to line up behind him no matter what deal he brings home or what redlines he has to abandon to do it.

Really? And a UK trade deal with the US or anyone will give NI full access to it...very EU customs unionie indeed

cryptocurrency

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You are correct, EU negotiators have proven very capable to date and that included being transparent in their dealings. The UK were constantly complaining of "leaks" from the EU and yet EU transparency in their dealings has not harmed them at all. There is infact a strong case to be made that bursting your opponents balloon, not allowing them to dominate the perception of what is going on by failing to challenge the narratives they put out is an important part of effective negiotating.

There is no reason for Mr Hogan to fear speaking the truth. Remaining quiet and allowing the UK government to spin false naratives about deals being done quickly will not aid him in any way as far as I can see.

I think a class of primary school children could have looked capable when compared to Ollie Robins and Thresa May.

Let's see what they are like against a Boris majority and the likes of cummings in his ear

Tony EH

Aegir wrote: »

You have a very ironic answer and compounded it.

It is typical of the blinkered echo chamber that surrounds any discussion on Brexit on Boards.

Any challenge to that is countered with ad hominem, as you have demonstrated twice now.

The view in here that Brexit is due to either racism or greed is simplistic. The fact that people like Jeremy Corbyn are pro leaving the Eu demonstrates this perfectly. I know any criticism of Corbyn and challenging the generally accepted argument on Brexit is an anathema to some people, but those are the simple facts of the matter.

You didn't read the reply carefully, did you.

And you haven't made any challenges at all. You were given a relatively substantial reply to your post to which you, in turn replied with petty one liners that didn't even address any of the points made. If that's all you have, I shant be wasting any more time with you.

And your content above further demonstrates your lack of grasp on what was said.

cryptocurrency

Aegir wrote: »

You have a very ironic answer and compounded it.

It is typical of the blinkered echo chamber that surrounds any discussion on Brexit on Boards.

Any challenge to that is countered with ad hominem, as you have demonstrated twice now.

The view in here that Brexit is due to either racism or greed is simplistic. The fact that people like Jeremy Corbyn are pro leaving the Eu demonstrates this perfectly. I know any criticism of Corbyn and challenging the generally accepted argument on Brexit is an anathema to some people, but those are the simple facts of the matter.

It's nothing to do with racism, most of the members of the EU are more more racist places then the UK will ever be.

Greed maybe, greed to better themselves and the nation. Sure why not, I've no doubt the UK will improve compared to the nations trapped in the EU.

As for Corbyn, he is a communist and only wanted to leave the EU to implement is a Marxist revolution from day one. While the EU is very socialist to normal people, it's not socialist enough, fast enough, for him.

end of the road

cryptocurrency wrote: »

As for Corbyn, he is a communist and only wanted to leave the EU to implement is a Marxist revolution from day one. While the EU is very socialist to normal people, it's not socialist enough, fast enough, for him.

incorrect, corbyn is no communist and he is not interested in any marxist anything.

Eric Cartman

end of the road wrote: »

incorrect, corbyn is no communist and he is not interested in any marxist anything.

while im sure we could debate the communist aspect, the "not interested in a marxist anything" , what..... thats kind of his entire deal.....