Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

biko

DrumSteve wrote: »

Pretty much exactly

I think that's a oxymoron
It is either close, or it's exact

blinding

InTheShadows wrote: »

What many in Ireland fail to understand is that peoples views haven't moved that much since the referendum. I'd hazard a guess leaves vote would now be increased if a 2nd referendum was held today.

Obviously , Most British People thought they were living in a Democracy and that there Democratic decision would be respected .

In another Referendum it would be all about British Democracy and I would be surprised if that did not lead to an even greater Vote for Democracy and Freedom .

DrumSteve

biko wrote: »

I think that's a oxymoron
It is either close, or it's exact

Got me there

KildareP

blinding wrote: »

Yes of course . The Scots only need 50% + 1 to leave the British Union and then they can give their new found Independence to the Eu if they so ( foolishly ) please .

What about recent comments from the PM contenders that they "won't allow" Scotland to hold such a referendum? Scotland can't just unilaterlly decide to hold a referendum on independence.

blinding wrote: »

It Really is Great That Britain Has Now Found Such Respect for Democracy . And Long May It Continue .

Without Democracy . There Is No Freedom . Obviously Britain Must Have Been Paying Attention To Its History . Hence , They Know That Their democracy Must Be Respected .

Do Not Risk Democracy . You do Not Know if You will get It Back !

Who, outside of Britain, is not respecting democracy? You've been asked this a number of times I see without a straight answer.

It's certainly not the EU - they have absolutely no power to do so:
- They couldn't start the Article 50 process
- They can't revoke the Article 50 process to hold the UK in
- They can't unilaterally extend the Article 50 process to "trap" the UK in indefinitely
- They can't "push" the UK out before the agreed timeframe has lapsed either.

That Britain is still here is entirely Britain's doing, and should Britain still be here on November 1st, it will have been entirely Britain's doing. Don't blame the EU.

Now, I'm sure you'll argue that the WA process is unfair and the backstop is a trap. If you want to maintain the democracy angle, fine - British democracy does not override anyone else's.

If Britain wants to exit the EU on no-deal, or on a deal that involves a hard border:
- what happens to the democratic right of someone born in Northern Ireland to continue to consider themselves Irish, British, or both?
- how is cross-border and all-island co-operation maintained in the GFA when the reason Britain wants to Brexit is entirely because they want to be able to choose their own laws and regulations without having to involve anyone else?
- how does someone who recognises themselves as Irish specifically have their democratic rights protected if they face a border everytime they want to travel into the Republic?

As far as Britain is concerned, that doesn't matter a toss.
The will of the people is all that matters and who cares what the Republic of Ireland or the wider EU has democratically chosen.

See - democracy is a two way street.
Respect mine and I respect yours.

If you feel your democratic right is more important than mine, well then that's no longer democracy.

blinding wrote: »

This is Only a Forum of Very Limited Importance .

...

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So Boris calling a GE is democracy.
Boris not calling a GE is also democracy?

Boris calling a second referendum is not democracy
Boris not calling a second referendum is democracy.


Am I doing this right?

If Boris calls a General election where Brexit is the most important factor and Boris gets a Majority then it will hardly be surprising that Brexit follows there after .

Harika

biko wrote: »

The people's will was respected by the ruling class, thankfully, and now Brexit is actually happening.
We can only hope other countries' governments will allow their citizenry a similar chance, and if the vote says Leave they actually do instead of "it was only advisory".

Other countries looked at this madness and how bad it goes and stopped all plans for any exits. Euroscepticism is on the down slops. The parties that were pushing for votes, mostly gave up their intentions and are now on the route of reforming from the inside. The EU played that beautiful and outclassed their UK counterparts.

biko

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Boris calling a second referendum is not democracy
Boris not calling a second referendum is democracy.

If the advisory referendum had advised to remain in EU.
Would you say that calling for a second referendum is democratic, or not?

Boggles

blinding wrote: »

Its not offering a deal acceptable to the House of Commons

Not the EUs problem. The deal was negotiated with representatives from the government.

That's how these things work, it's a function of democracy.

The EU given the Commons a blank document and telling them to fill it out would be pretty monumentally stupid.

Time to dip the toe in reality.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

If Boris calls a General election where Brexit is the most important factor and Boris gets a Majority then it will hardly be surprising that Brexit follows there after .

And if he doesn't and they revoke...will you pipe down then and accept it?

blinding

Boggles wrote: »

Not the EUs problem. The deal was negotiated with representatives from the government.

That's how these things work, it's a function of democracy.

The EU given the Commons a blank document and telling them to fill it out would be pretty monumentally stupid.

Time to dip the toe in reality.

Time to leave the Eu then , obviously .

FrancieBrady

biko wrote: »

If the advisory referendum had advised to remain in EU.
Would you say that calling for a second referendum is democratic, or not?

Yes, if there was sufficient demand for it. To this democrat a referendum of the people is never a wrong option tbh.

DrumSteve

blinding wrote: »

The Vote to leave the Eu has to be Respected . I.e. Leave the Eu .

If the Eu want to do a deal that can get through the House of Commons . Fair enough . And if they don’t fair enough as well .

To be honest . Boris should call a General Election ASAP .

There has been enough faffing about and the only way to stop that is with a General Election . Hopefully that will be more Democracy for Brexit .

I love Democracy and the Freedom that goes with it .

That's true, democracy is a good thing.

But in this instance, your interpretation of Brexit might not match the person next to you.

I honestly don't think there is any deal the EU could offer Britain that would work (and respect the GFA) because that would mean the brexiteers having to agree a common stance.

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And if he doesn't and they revoke...will you pipe down then and accept it?

If my side loses a Democratic Process re Brexit of course we would accept it .

We are not of the Eu-Phile Religion .

Harika

blinding wrote: »

If Boris calls a General election where Brexit is the most important factor and Boris gets a Majority then it will hardly be surprising that Brexit follows there after .

Boris would be a madman to call an election right now, on the other hand maybe the only way to get an extension. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/07/18/voting-intention-con-25-lab-21-lib-dem-20-brex-19-
A GE would be russian roulett with the chance of destroying the conservatives, as he needs a Brexit declaration beforehand and neither no deal nor TMs deal will attract enough tension to gather a dominant win. It will just become harder with the threat of a libdem/labour/green majority to stop Brexit, if Corbyn changes his mind. Might be his best chance to get into power.
TM was among the shortest PMs ever, will Boris top that?

blinding

DrumSteve wrote: »

That's true, democracy is a good thing.

But in this instance, your interpretation of Brexit might not match the person next to you.

I honestly don't think there is any deal the EU could offer Britain that would work (and respect the GFA) because that would mean the brexiteers having to agree a common stance.

Leave the Eu and offer a border poll in Northern Ireland . The Demographic of Northern Ireland will almost certainly very soon cause a Border Poll . where’s the downside for the Brits . Save £11 billion on Northern Ireland and out of the Eu . Lovely Jubbly .

DrumSteve

Oddly, the only person who could stop Brexit without it destroying the UK is Boris.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

If my side loses a Democratic Process re Brexit of course we would accept it .

We are not of the Eu-Phile Religion .

So you would be for a second ref then? Britain's political class are unable to sort this out - they need clarification from the people on how to proceed.

kunst nugget

biko wrote: »

If the advisory referendum had advised to remain in EU.
Would you say that calling for a second referendum is democratic, or not?

I think that's kind of a false equivalence - If the country had decided to go with the status quo of staying in the EU, why run it again so shortly after running it the first time? Leaving the EU represents a seismic change in how Britain relates to the rest of Europe and the rest of the world and according to most forecasts it's going to have a very negative effect on the economy for possibly decades, especially if they leave with No Deal. I would have thought it would have been prudent to have another referendum to make sure they are fully happy to leave and that they know the full implications of their decision in relation to freedom of movement and tariffs on imports and exports.

Auguste Comte

blinding wrote: »

Its not offering a deal acceptable to the House of Commons . Admittedly many MPs are using every possible tactic to frustrate the Democratic decision of the People .

The deal that is on the table is not an offer from Europe, it is an agreement negotiated by both the British and Europeans. Britain can choose to accept or reject it. It is a British decision.

Genuine democracy would be to put the deal to the people in a binding referendum and let them make an informed decision on what brexit actually looks like not the nebulis, vague, unrealistic ideas of what brexit could be that turned out to be completely false.

blinding

Harika wrote: »

Boris would be a madman to call an election right now, on the other hand maybe the only way to get an extension. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/07/18/voting-intention-con-25-lab-21-lib-dem-20-brex-19-
A GE would be russian roulett with the chance of destroying the conservatives, as he needs a Brexit declaration beforehand and neither no deal nor TMs deal will attract enough tension to gather a dominant win. It will just become harder with the threat of a libdem/labour/green majority to stop Brexit, if Corbyn changes his mind. Might be his best chance to get into power.
TM was among the shortest PMs ever, will Boris top that?

If he does not get Brexit over the line by 31st of October then he needs to call an Election asap or else he and the Tories are toast and you will have either Farage or Corbyn in Downing street .

Though ,I am a huge fan of Nigel I believe the British people will back the Tories so long as they Respect British democracy by completing Brexit .

DrumSteve

blinding wrote: »

Leave the Eu and offer a border poll in Northern Ireland . The Demographic of Northern Ireland will almost certainly very soon cause a Border Poll . where’s the downside for the Brits . Save £11 billion on Northern Ireland and out of the Eu . Lovely Jubbly .

Well, IMO, you'd be looking at the Scots wanting their own "Border Poll" after that in that instance, so you're precipitating the break up of the UK as a result of Brexit?

DrumSteve

blinding wrote: »

If he does not get Brexit over the line by 31st of October then he needs to call an Election asap or else he and the Tories are toast and you will have either Farage or Corbyn in Downing street .

Though ,I am a huge fan of Nigel I believe the British people will back the Tories so long as they Respect British democracy by completing Brexit .

Farage would not want to be in No 10 as he would be exposed.

kunst nugget

blinding wrote: »

If he does not get Brexit over the line by 31st of October then he needs to call an Election asap or else he and the Tories are toast and you will have either Farage or Corbyn in Downing street .

Though ,I am a huge fan of Nigel I believe the British people will back the Tories so long as they Respect British democracy by completing Brexit .

They only way he'll get an extension is if he has an election or a referendum so if doesn't have it over the line by Halloween, he is going to have to give the British public one of those two options to stop the UK crashing out - I think that even he isn't dense enough to let that happen.

biko

kunst nugget wrote: »

Leaving the EU represents a seismic change in how Britain relates to the rest of Europe

I see your point but - it only took one referendum to enter the EU, why would it not be one referendum to leave?

Tbh, the effect of the EU onto Britain is way more seismic than people have understood - economically, and otherwise.
Would Britain have bombed Libya without EU? Maybe, maybe not.
Will Britain remaining in EU be willing to supply personnel to the future EU army?

EU we all joined back in the day was a different beast altogether than what it is today, and frankly it's getting worse.

FrancieBrady

biko wrote: »

I see your point but - it only took one referendum to enter the EU, why would it not be one referendum to leave?

Tbh, the effect of the EU onto Britain is way more seismic than people have understood - economically, and otherwise.
Would Britain have bombed Libya without EU? Maybe, maybe not.
Will Britain remaining in EU be willing to supply personnel to the future EU army?

EU we all joined back in the day was a different beast altogether than what it is today, and frankly it's getting worse.

If it had been plainly evident to all that the decision was in doubt and further underlined by a government unable to agree the entry terms, among themselves , another referendum on joining would have been totally legitimate.

I suspect though that the electorate was properly informed on what joining meant.

Seth Brundle

blinding wrote: »

If Boris calls a General election where Brexit is the most important factor and Boris gets a Majority then it will hardly be surprising that Brexit follows there after .

But you can't just say let's Brexit. It needs to be said in what manner the Uk would exit and what the implications (positive or negative) would be. That would be democracy based on informed decisions rather than democracy by populism and bluster.

Seth Brundle

blinding wrote: »

Though ,I am a huge fan of Nigel I believe the British people will back the Tories so long as they Respect British democracy by completing Brexit .

"British" democracy? Surely you mean English democracy given that they've the majority say within Westminster?

Anyhow, does your British democracy include Northern Irish voters given that Britain doesn't include Northern Ireland?

Seth Brundle

biko wrote: »

I see your point but - it only took one referendum to enter the EU, why would it not be one referendum to leave?

Just for clarity, it did not take one referendumn for the UK to enter the EU.
The UK referendum in 1975 was to decide if it wanted to continue it's membership, and it chose to continue.
The UK joined the EU on Jan 1st 1973.

An utterly caustic profile of Boris Johnson on the NYT today. It's extraordinary how incompetent he has been whenever he has had a position of power:

Sure, Boris Johnson Is Funny. But Has He Ever Done a Job Well?

When the English need a capable, cunning leader more than they have since 1944 it seems they - or, rather, the 0.2% of them who can vote (ah, democracy) - are going to elect a first-rate clown with zero competence. This is a stellar performance by the English people collectively, particularly the pro-EU crowd who have walked off the stage and surrendered their country to this populist mob. Germany 1929-1933 - everybody should be reading how the populists there, with the support of their sympathisers in media and commerce, took power. The parallels with Brexiteers in 2019 are eerie.

First Up

blinding wrote:

Love Democracy and the Freedom that Goes With It .

Will you be getting some new words for Christmas?