Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

No no no, we were told to vote again. And we endured a year of scare mongering before the second vote. THAT IS NOT DEMOCRACY, the EU does not care about democracy.

The day after the first vote results were in:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland-will-have-to-vote-again-on-lisbon-says-sarkozy-1.945091

My mother also said we would have to vote again. Sarkosy was just the leader of another one of the EU 28.

We sought and got legal guarantees and it was our FF government who decided to run the Referendum again on securing these.

Sorry to spoil your 'sinister EU' rant. I'd have my criticisms of it, but cannot indulge this nonsense.

Kidchameleon

FrancieBrady wrote: »

My mother also said we would have to vote again.

Now we know where you picked up your disgraceful attitude to democracy.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sarkosy was just the leader of another one of the EU 28. .

And he complete epitomises the attitude of them

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We sought and got legal guarantees and it was our FF government who decided to run the Referendum again on securing these.

Thats all obfuscation on your part. The dogs on the street know the EU started as a trading block and year on year acted more like a country in its own right. They have a national anthem and want an army. They need to f*ck right off. Why did the Irish gov bow to their overlords?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry to spoil your 'sinister EU' rant.

You haven't spoiled it at all, they are complete and utter scum.

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/brehonisbest/status/1073491717570117634

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Now we know where you picked up your disgraceful attitude to democracy.

Maybe I should have gagged her...democracy Kidchameleon style.

And he complete epitomises the attitude of them

The leader of a country has an opinion on something. Shocker!

Thats all obfuscation on your part. The dogs on the street know the EU started as a trading block and year on year acted more like a country in its own right. They have a national anthem and want an army. They need to f*ck right off. Why did the Irish gov bow to their overlords?

Your nonsense doesn't stand any scrutiny. WE went to the EU, Michael Martin as Minister For Foreign Affairs and sought legal guarantees and assurance and got them. WE then decided to run the referendum again, when the electorate had every right to vote No again and the legal guarantees were sufficient the second time. That is all part of the public record.

You haven't spoiled it at all, they are complete and utter scum.

Yada Yada, make sure and check under that bed tonight now!

Seth Brundle

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Now we know where you picked up your disgraceful attitude to democracy.

Brexit is an anti-democratic choice (as a corrupt referendum voted on by a majority of ill-informed voters) as implemented by a parliament elected using a low quality electoral system.
And you think it is better than a transparent electoral system, as used by the EU and, given that he keeps standing for election, is looked on favourably by Farage?

Kidchameleon wrote: »

And he complete epitomises the attitude of them

Describe their attitude please. It's hard to see how negative it is from someone with your level of negativity.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Thats all obfuscation on your part. The dogs on the street know the EU started as a trading block and year on year acted more like a country in its own right. They have a national anthem and want an army. They need to f*ck right off. Why did the Irish gov bow to their overlords?

Honestly you're being stupid with this stuff!
FIFA for example have an anthem too. Does that mean they're trying to take our trade from us? Are FIFA our overlords too?

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You haven't spoiled it at all, they are complete and utter scum.

Who exactly are scum?

If it's anti-democratic to vote twice on the "same" issue, surely the Brexiteers should not have been allowed their 2016 referendum because 67.23% of the British electorate voted in 1975 to be members of the "Franco-German controlled" EEC? In contrast, a mere 51.89% of the electorate in 2016 voted to leave the EU.

The concept of political evolution doesn't register in the Brexiteer mind. Their own state that is the current UK can only be dated to the 6 December 1922, but they go on as if it has been there for eternity, and will always be. It absolutely will not. Its days are looking very numbered with Brexit.

For the record, no power in world history has lost as much power as Britain has lost in the past century. But now that process of lost power has finally been extended back to Britain by Brexit. Brexit has introduced what Ian Lustick famously termed the ideological-hegemonic stage (in Ireland it happened in the 1880s, when Parnell first controlled the balance of power of Westminster and the idea of Home Rule becoming a reality was accepted in the mainstream); where once the idea of breaking up the UK was not even allowed on the political agenda - the Unionist ideology controlled that agenda - now since Brexit it is widely being discussed.

And equally widely acknowledged that Brexit is really England exit and as such English nationalists are for the first time in effect actively working to break up the UK, even if they may still give lip service to the idea of the UK. They want to be free of burdens like the DUP and their Irish border concerns which will only weaken the depth of sovereignty in the post-Brexit English state.

Kidchameleon

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Brexit is an anti-democratic choice (as a corrupt referendum voted on by a majority of ill-informed voters) as implemented by a parliament elected using a low quality electoral system.
And you think it is better than a transparent electoral system, as used by the EU and, given that he keeps standing for election, is looked on favourably by Farage?

You are saying a referendum that was won fair and square by the leave side is anti democratic? What are people not getting about the referendum, they were asked simply if they wanted to leave or remain. They chose to leave, it is really really simple!

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Describe their attitude please.

Arrogant, entitled, domineering.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Who exactly are scum?

The EU elites.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

FIFA for example have an anthem too. Does that mean they're trying to take our trade from us? Are FIFA our overlords too?

Do FIFA have an army? Do FIFA control your nations budgets? Do FIFA control your national policy through unelected officials?

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You are saying a referendum that was won fair and square by the leave side is anti democratic? What are people not getting about the referendum, they were asked simply if they wanted to leave or remain. They chose to leave, it is really really simple!

They got what they wanted, the UK went and necogiated a deal to leave. The 'democratic' problem is at the british end. It is their parliament that is paralysed. We and the EU are waiting patiently for them to get around to being a functioning democracy.

Arrogant, entitled, domineering.

If that was the case, we won't have gotten a referendum. We had every right to reject Lisbon even with the legal garuntees. If you have proof that individual voters were 'domineered' by 'arrogant and entitled' Eurocrats, fire it out there.

The EU elites.

Did your candidate not get elected? Because that sounds more of sour grapes and petulant 'arrogance' tbh

Do FIFA have an army? Do FIFA control your nations budgets? Do FIFA control your national policy through unelected officials?

FIFA control standards within football with everyone's democratic input.
Do the EU control our national policy....how so?

And they don't have an army either. :rolleyes:

Guy:Incognito

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You are saying a referendum that was won fair and square by the leave side is anti democratic?

Fair and square apart from the lies, mistruths and illegal stuff, yeah?


Edit. Btw I'm fully expecting the rebuttal to be full of whataboutery to deflect from any wrongdoing by brexiteers as usual.

Kidchameleon

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did your candidate not get elected? Because that sounds more of sour grapes and petulant 'arrogance' tbh

I wouldn't even know who my "candidate" is. Why would I vote for a useless smokescreen of a politician who has no power? The real power of the EU is in the unelected elite ranks.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And they don't have an army either. :rolleyes:

I never said they did.

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I wouldn't even know who my "candidate" is. Why would I vote for a useless smokescreen of a politician who has no power? The real power of the EU is in the unelected elite ranks.

Please demonstrate with something within the bounds of credibility that this is the case.

*more uninformed ranting is not an answer btw.

I never said they did.

Why was it relevant to the FIFA comparison then?

ILoveYourVibes

I wonder in Oct when they ask for an extension will the EU give it to them?

They doing sweet FA right now.

Guy:Incognito

Kidchameleon wrote: »

.



I never said they did.

Yeah, you just implied so that you could go for full on deniability when challenged, the usual rubbish. "Show me where I said they do"
You're clearly implying it.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

.



Do FIFA have an army? Do FIFA control your nations budgets? Do FIFA control your national policy through unelected officials?

FrancieBrady

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I wonder in Oct when they ask for an extension will the EU give it to them?

They doing sweet FA right now.

They are so many buying into the British fabricated story that the EU is blocking them from exiting or forcing them to do something. Falling for the 'we are the victims' spoofing.

The EU is waiting patiently for the UK to sort out it's paralysed, undemocratic mess.

Kidchameleon

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Yeah, you just implied so that you could go for full on deniability when challenged, the usual rubbish. "Show me where I said they do"
You're clearly implying it.

The EU want an army. Someone sarcastically informed me that they do not currently have one, which I already know.

ILoveYourVibes

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The EU want an army. Someone sarcastically informed me that they do not currently have one, which I already know.

They haven't made up their mind if they want one yet or not imo.

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The EU want an army. Someone sarcastically informed me that they do not currently have one, which I already know.

'Some' people in the EU want an army.

The sinister 'EU' as a singular entity acting against and domineering 'lil old Ireland doesn't exist outside your head and the pages of the Daily Mail etc which is only too happy to exploit your tinfoil hat gullibility.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They haven't made up their mind if they want one yet or not imo.

It’s just a play by the French to stop European militaries buying Lockheed aircraft. It’s the only way (other than gond fashioned bribery) that they can shift more Dassaults.

The federalists want it, of course, because that is pretty much the last barrier to a fully federal Europe.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The concept of political evolution doesn't register in the Brexiteer mind. Their own state that is the current UK can only be dated to the 6 December 1922, but they go on as if it has been there for eternity, and will always be. It absolutely will not. Its days are looking very numbered with Brexit.

For the record, no power in world history has lost as much power as Britain has lost in the past century. But now that process of lost power has finally been extended back to Britain by Brexit. Brexit has introduced what Ian Lustick famously termed the ideological-hegemonic stage (in Ireland it happened in the 1880s, when Parnell first controlled the balance of power of Westminster and the idea of Home Rule becoming a reality was accepted in the mainstream); where once the idea of breaking up the UK was not even allowed on the political agenda - the Unionist ideology controlled that agenda - now since Brexit it is widely being discussed.

And equally widely acknowledged that Brexit is really England exit and as such English nationalists are for the first time in effect actively working to break up the UK, even if they may still give lip service to the idea of the UK. They want to be free of burdens like the DUP and their Irish border concerns which will only weaken the depth of sovereignty in the post-Brexit English state.

If you’re an English tax payer and you see all these subsidies paying for free university courses in Scotland, free prescriptions in Wales and support for some bull**** made up language inNorthern Ireland, while parts of England get neglected, then you can understand why.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

If you’re an English tax payer and you see all these subsidies paying for free university courses in Scotland, free prescriptions in Wales and support for some bull**** made up language inNorthern Ireland, while parts of England get neglected, then you can understand why.

One sentence that perfectly illustrates why the UK will inexorably break up.

Seth Brundle

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You are saying a referendum that was won fair and square by the leave side is anti democratic? What are people not getting about the referendum, they were asked simply if they wanted to leave or remain. They chose to leave, it is really really simple!

So the referendum wasn't rigged (despite the evidence showing that it was)?
In what manner did the people choose to leave the EU?
Was the subject of the single market raised?
Was the customs union discussed with the electorate?
Did everyone choose to leave in exactly the same manner?

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Arrogant, entitled, domineering.

Youre taking the piss, right?
So despite those traits are being shown by the various tories and brexiteers towards the irish for example, you think certain EU leaders are showing these traits?
You initially referred to Sarkosy as rhis. Have you even seen him in the media in years (he was replaced in 2012!)?

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The EU elites.

Now who are these?
A meaningless name is still meaningless. Give some examples of the EU elites who you claim are scum please

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Do FIFA have an army? Do FIFA control your nations budgets? Do FIFA control your national policy through unelected officials?

FFS you really don't get it do you?
There's none so blind as those who will not see!

For those prattling on about how undemocratic the nefarious EU supposedly is, have a read of this Irish Times article: Britain is run by a self-serving clique. That’s why it’s in crisis

.... On the same day, the Sutton Trust and the Social Mobility Commission issued a report into elitism in Britain that “paints a picture of a country whose power structures are dominated by a narrow section of the population [where] social mobility is low and not improving”.

Those who went to private school comprise 7 per cent of the country’s population but 39 per cent of the elite; those who went to Oxford or Cambridge university comprise less than 1 per cent of the population but 24 per cent of the elite. Senior judges, junior ministers, permanent secretaries and diplomats are among the least representative professions. But the media, and particularly newspaper columnists, are right up there, too.

There is a clear and undeniable link between the entrenched and calcifying class stratification in British society and the inept chaos in which we currently find ourselves. The gene puddle from which the elite siphons its ranks has become shallow and fetid. Those who make the laws in government, oversee the civil service that will implement them, adjudicate on them in court or assess them in newspapers, are drawn from such a narrow social layer that they might as well be the same person.

Even when they do not form a majority, their critical mass is such that they set the tone, define the culture and shape the parameters for what is institutionally permissible.

This was never healthy and always absurd. But recently it has become untenable. The prime minister who got us into this Brexit mess a few years back went to the same school and joined the same supper club at the same university as the person who will most likely be prime minister in a few weeks’ time. Nobody thinks that is an uncanny coincidence. It’s how Britain works. It’s also why it’s not working.

“The country’s model of leadership is disintegrating,” wrote the Economist, not known for its Marxist tendencies, in December. “Britain is governed by a self-involved clique that rewards group membership above competence and self-confidence above expertise.”


The overwhelming failure of integration in this country has nothing to do with Muslims or race - it’s that those who are running it, governing it and commenting on it have such a limited experience of living in it the way that most do. The consequences of that dislocation are proving devastating....

Class privilege is not new. Between 1955 and 1964 all three British prime ministers went to Eton and Oxford. But several things have changed since then that make this persistent dominance of a tiny stratum particularly problematic. First of all, levels of income inequality have grown massively.

According to the Equality Trust thinktank, between 1938 and 1979 the share of income going to the top 10 per cent fell by 40 per cent, while that going to the bottom grew a little. After 1979 that trend reversed sharply and has now effectively stalled. Real wages have yet to catch up with pre-crisis levels.

So the oligarchic tendencies in our economy are being reinforced and amplified in our polity and broader culture. The people who have everything also run everything. The Tory frontrunner, Johnson, is not just a product of that system but an advocate for it. When we see him call for a massive tax cut for the rich, we see a candidate who has had much and wants more.

When we see him guessing the minimum wage “at or around £10” when it is in fact £8.21, we see a candidate who knows nothing about those who have little and has no interest in learning. (Imagine what would have happened to Diane Abbott had she made a mistake like that.)

Second, their increasingly desperate efforts to preserve their grip on power are having increasingly extreme consequences. We are in a period of extended crisis and division, largely brought about by financial elites whose reckless behaviour was first enabled and indulged, and then forgiven and written off, by political elites. It is highly unlikely that the imaginative and radical responses we need to turn this around are going to come from those same elites.

Brexit is simply the clearest manifestation of these crises. The race for Tory leader is the clearest illustration of how ill-equipped we are to deal with them. This party has won an outright majority just once in the last six elections and is about to elect its third leader in three years....

At Eton, they were taught to impose themselves on the world with “effortless superiority”. But these people fall short too often...

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

For those prattling on about how undemocratic the nefarious EU supposedly is, have a read of this Irish Times article: Britain is run by a self-serving clique. That’s why it’s in crisis

In fairness, you'll find Ireland is run the same way, a small clique.

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

In fairness, you'll find Ireland is run the same way, a small clique.

This thread is about Brexit and people supporting it because allegedly the EU is "undemocratic" in comparison to Britain.

Kidchameleon

Who cares, at least they govern themselves and choose to stand on their own feet.

Kidchameleon

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So the referendum wasn't rigged (despite the evidence showing that it was)?

Can you define your term "rigged" just so I know we are on the same page?

tuxy

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Who cares, at least they govern themselves and choose to stand on their own feet.

Maybe the Welsh do but not every country can obtain that high level of liberty......
Take the Scottish for example.

Seth Brundle

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Can you define your term "rigged" just so I know we are on the same page?

You know what it means so let's not be childish.
Google Aaron Banks or Cambridge Analytica for a start.

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Who cares, at least they govern themselves and choose to stand on their own feet.

They are paralysed ffs, and have been through two PM's and countless MP's trying to govern themselves. And without the EEC they were at the IMF's door to plead for the largest ever loan at the time and for some time after.